On being too conservative

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DL82

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I just wanted to offer a personal observation and ask if anyone else here can sympathise, and if so whether there’s anything that you can do about it?

I have noticed recently that, whenever there is the choice between acting on two differing opinions, I always pick the more conservative, more personally difficult, less individualistic, older, or more unpopular option. This doesn’t just go for my religious life but my political and social views, my use of language, and the way I view my work and relationships too. There is a pretty serious disconnection between what I say I believe, claiming to be quite progressive, and how I in fact act. Part of this is just a desire to make things hard for myself, but part of it is also a profound distrust of anything not steeped in history, and anything that seems too ‘easy’ or too ‘obvious’. In the past, before my conversion, this led me into some quite bigoted views, which I am still now trying to get out of.

Anyway, by way of illustration, just recently I went into a Catholic book shop to buy a book on Our Lady. Nothing I could find had an +Imprimatur, so I decided to go with the book that seemed the most ‘orthodox’, because it seemed scholastic and was heavily laden with quotes from the saints. It turned out when I got home that the author was a priest of the SSPX :eek:In my desire to be ultra-orthodox I had in fact over-shot the mark and found a book by someone in irregular standing with the Church.

On the other hand, a personal hero of mine is St Thomas More - he seems to be a man who was capable of embracing contradiction - writing a far-sighted political work like Utopia about a place where religious freedom existed, but also enforcing the laws of England with regard to stamping out Protestant heresy. He wasn’t ‘traditional’ in many ways, but when it really came down to what was important, he was willing to sacrifice his life when many more ‘traditional’ minds were happy to follow their bishops into schism. My ‘progressive’ side would like to be like St Thomas, but I’ve become aware of this conservative side of me, which isn’t a choice but an unwelcome part of my personality, that makes me too scared to leave the hard-line of Catholicism and give due consideration to views which seem to enter a ‘middle ground’. It’s a dangerous tendency.

In short, how do I stop the drift off the Catholic mainstream into a traditionalism for tradition’s sake?
 
Hi DL82 🙂

I feel I can sympathize with you. At the same time I find it fascinating that although you consider yourself progressive, your tendency to side towards more conservative thought has created conflict within your own self-perception.

Maybe it would help if you would reconsider what Christ taught. His main teaching was to love - each other, accept situations no matter how difficult they may be, and sticking to the convictions of Truth. It might be that your innate sense of wrong vs. right may be surfacing more than you want. Don’t focus on what YOU want…focus on what is right, and these conservative thoughts and ideas just may be telling you something.

There are certain absolutes when it comes to Truth. Learn from those close to God (the saints and even those faithful living now) and maybe you’ll see that the conflicts really aren’t conflicts at all.

Peace of Christ to you 🙂
 
DL82, you sound to me to be a very conscientious person, so I would not worry too much.

We all have personality tendences, so look to Our Lord, and stay faithful to the Pope.

One great thing about being Catholic is we can let our personal choices go and be guided by the Holy Father and the magisterium, and we will be okay.
 
DL82 said:
IMy ‘progressive’ side would like to be like St Thomas, but I’ve become aware of this conservative side of me, which isn’t a choice but an unwelcome part of my personality, that makes me too scared to leave the hard-line of Catholicism and give due consideration to views which seem to enter a ‘middle ground’. It’s a dangerous tendency.

In short, how do I stop the drift off the Catholic mainstream into a traditionalism for tradition’s sake?
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I don’t think you have to worry about this. Why? Because you are aware of it in yourself. It is the people who aren’t aware that are in trouble and do harm; doesn’t matter whether they are orthodox or not. We all have our tendencies and preferences. We all have a God given critical thinking brain… and we all need to stretch ourselves a bit sometimes to help us know where we stand.
 
The fact that you are thinking about this issues and some of your comments indicate that you have some self knowledge and are thinking and concerned. IMO, that is half of the battle. First, confession and mass as often as you can go are helpful and spriritual direction if possible.

My take on issues and being open, I try to keep in mind that I don’t know hearts and minds in terms of judging people. Being a convert, I live in a family with at least 5 different religions/belief systems. Sometimes all you can do is pray for conversions and love your relatives though they don’t change 🤷 I know you were not talking about relating with family, but I try to apply that experience to others I meet.

I used to consider myself a liberal, but when I began to really think and understand about issues, I found that too often many of the ‘hot button’ issues boil down to people feeling- God loves me and wants me to be happy and x, y or z makes me happy ergo God is ok with x, y or z. I can listen to someone who has a different (or what I consider wrong) points of view and, with love, state my own case- not in a “zinger” or condeming attitude, but gently stating the case or the truth.
 
In my honest opinion…there is no such thing as “too conservative”…on the same token, any type of progressive thought or action should be avoided at all cost in my opinion…and progressives and liberals have destroyed everything they have come in contact with throughout history…whether you are talking about matters of the faith/Church or every day secular life.

Also, just an FYI, just because an SSPX priest authored a certain book, it is not bad…I have read many things authored by SSPX priest and lay people that contain sound, unadulterated Catholic Theology.
 
=DL82;6054193]I just wanted to offer a personal observation and ask if anyone else here can sympathise, and if so whether there’s anything that you can do about it?
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In short, how do I stop the drift off the Catholic mainstream into a traditionalism for tradition’s sake?
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***My dear friend in Christ. I don’t know you, but I sure like you’re desire for traditionalism. It seems to me a far safer harbor than the wild currents of the “main stream.”

While Christ does not encourage “judgmental” opinions, He nevertheless tells us that we shall know them “by there fruits.” [Matt. Chapter 7]

Because the Sacred Liturgy is not only the key to what we belief, but also expresses most fully who we are, and what we [are too] believe, it seems to be a good foundation for looking at the fruit of the “Post Vatican II” Mass and review its effects on the salvation of souls.

A recent 2008 PEW Report shares this information.

In 1970 about 75% of self professed Catholics regularly fulfilled Sunday and Holyday Mass Obligations. In 2008 that number had decreased to about 23%.

In 1970 about 65% of this same group fulfilled there “Easter Duty” of Confession /Reconciliation at least once per year. In 2008 that number had dropped to about 10%

Further there are roughly the same percentage of “catholics” who get divorced as non-Catholics. And the percentage of “catholics” using “birth control” has been estimated to be perhaps as high as 90%?

Certainly NOT all of this can be blamed on the innovative Novus Ordo, all though it is a primary factor, both for what is does and what it does not do.

The Second largest “christian sec” is now “fallen away Catholics.”

Because the Liturgy bears such influence on how we think, how we pray, how we practice our Faith, and it’s form and effect on personal piety, one must began here to evaluate the Prudence of straying further from the path of traditional Catholic Worship.

Clearly, what we are doing is not as effective in Salvation of Souls, as what we have done in the past. What is Not done, is Not said, is Not preached, is Not practiced all contribute to the current situation.

What can be done about it?

Each of us should reevaluate where we are personally in our Walk with Christ. Let us first be concerned about removing “the plank” from our own eyes before attempting to assist our neighbors.

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
I can understand how you feel. I too tend to be automatically suspicious of the new and trendy, and I think part of me likes to embrace what seems to have been left behind just to be difficult.

Of course, this is as bad as embracing the new just because it is new. Just looking at the Church, things were not always better in the past, and there were practices that were wrong and detrimental. And of course what seems solid and conservative to us now - Thomism say - was once new and radical.

I think there are a number of practical steps one can take to guard against one’s own natural tendencies taking over.
  1. Refrain from judgment unless you are really being called upon to make one, which mostly we aren’t THings may work out differently than you think, or may reveal more about themselves over time.
  2. Consider everything as charitably as possible. C.S. Lewis tells us in The Screwtape Letters that even the worst sermon, when listened to with the right attitude, can yield great pearls. This is often true in life. So try to look at practice X, which you dislike, in a new way. What is it trying to accomplish? Is it an attempt to bring in something that is lacking, or correct a defect of the past? And always assume that love is moving people, even if in strange directions.
  3. Get a good spiritual adviser, one who is solid but not prone to the same tendencies as you, to provide a bit of a “check”.
  4. Don’t view history through rose-coloured glasses. People sometimes do this about previous eras, pre-Vatican II for example. They forget the bad things that went along with the good, and of course they were in some ways related.
5 REmember that the Church has developed it’s understanding over time, and we are not in a radically different position now. God gave us time for a reason, and older is better is not a logical way to look at it.
 
PJM said:
***Each of us should reevaluate where we are personally in our Walk with Christ. Let us first be concerned about removing “the plank” from our own eyes before attempting to assist our neighbors.

Love and prayers,
Pat
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Very Good answer Pat:thumbsup:

I would add to what you have said regarding the plank, is that is part of the balance of not being afraid to be a witness and testament to the faith and an apologist. Our lives are witnesses and that is a way of “preaching” the gospel, but we should also be attuned to times when our comments can “witness”.
 
DL82, I have the perfect saint-in-waiting for you to request intercessary prayer from: Pope John Paul II.

I consider PJPII to be both progressive and conservative all at the same time. He stood for core orthodox principles of the Catholic Church and many liberal theologians saw him as taking a step backwards for the Church. One issue that comes immediately to mind is his stance on female ordination. PJPII took a very conservative (or one could say preservational) stance, preserving the Church’s long standing position that women can not be priests. On the other hand, PJPII also had a way of breaking down barriors that appeared to be there before. He was able to look outside the box and go see the people instead of staying in Rome (as hundreds of his predecssors before him did), he went to meet the people where they were in their own home countries, not to mention the many youth rallies he helped foster.
 
Hi 🙂

I understand where you’re coming from… I’ve been struggling with this too. I think maybe sometimes it helps to get rid of all these lables, and just seek to follow what Christ taught and what the Church teaches. Whether it’s “conservative”, or “traditional”, or “progressive”, etc. Just focus on loving Him, loving others, and being obedient to the Church, and on your spiritual growth… sometimes all these labels only distract us!

I’m saying this as a person who is generally “traditional” and “conservative”

God bless 🙂
 
What does the word “progressive” mean? Progress toward what? And who defines what is or is not progressive? If you look at Pope John Paul II, his progress was to be more like Christ. We become more authentically human the more we imitate Jesus.

Compared to what the rest of the world is doing, I consider myself very conservative. I’m not saying this to edify myself but to point out that what is identified as “mainstream” ways of speaking, dressing and behaving, especially in public, are vulgar and base. Restraint in speech is very problematic. Modesty is another problem.

Each one of us does judge the stranger we meet and observes, especially in large social settings, and on TV, what is considered average behavior. There is very little there worthy of praise or emulation. It’s too bad that TV news has gone from reporting news to focusing on celebrity scandals.

I will not buy certain magazines or books. I go to maybe one or two movies a year. The radio in my car stays on a local Catholic station and what they call music is way too trashy to listen to.

At one time, the outside world reflected Christian values and behavior. It does not observe them as much today.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
What does the word “progressive” mean? Progress toward what? And who defines what is or is not progressive? If you look at Pope John Paul II, his progress was to be more like Christ. We become more authentically human the more we imitate Jesus.

Compared to what the rest of the world is doing, I consider myself very conservative. I’m not saying this to edify myself but to point out that what is identified as “mainstream” ways of speaking, dressing and behaving, especially in public, are vulgar and base. Restraint in speech is very problematic. Modesty is another problem.

Each one of us does judge the stranger we meet and observes, especially in large social settings, and on TV, what is considered average behavior. There is very little there worthy of praise or emulation. It’s too bad that TV news has gone from reporting news to focusing on celebrity scandals.

I will not buy certain magazines or books. I go to maybe one or two movies a year. The radio in my car stays on a local Catholic station and what they call music is way too trashy to listen to.

At one time, the outside world reflected Christian values and behavior. It does not observe them as much today.

Peace,
Ed
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I feel that often certain words tend to immediately take on a political tone apart from their commonly understood meaning. When you look at the true meaning of ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’, the Church fits both definitions nicely. Were it not for Christians, and particularly Catholics, we would not have half of the charitable and social programs we have available to the poor and sick in this country- very ‘liberal’ programs like Social Security, womens’ suffrage, the Veterans Administration, etc, were fought for by many Catholics at the time. (Yes, back then, most ‘conservatives’ did not support the VA, fearing it was more unnecessary government growth. I’d like to see a conservative try to do away with it today, though!)

In the same way, as the world regresses into vice, murder, homosexuality, and a plethora of other sins, the Church continues to progress toward Christ, as another poster said. As for politics, I personally like the Constitution Party, sice I think Dems and Reps are really just two sides of the same coin. It’s interesting that, up until Roe V. Wade, most Catholics I know, including my family, were all Democrats. We often forget that the Democratic Party shared more Catholic values than the Republicans up until that point. That hot-button issue made us join the protestants and Masons in the Republican party- a bad move, if you ask me. And since I honestly believe Republican party officials would never willingly allow abortion to be illegalized, since it would remove their greatest source of votes, along with their stance on the death penalty, capitalism*, and anti-welfare platform (all very anti-Catholic) I cannot support them just as I cannot support Democrats.
 
ecce_ego;I feel that often certain words tend to immediately take on a political tone apart from their commonly understood meaning. When you look at the true meaning of ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’, the Church fits both definitions nicely. Were it not for Christians, and particularly Catholics, we would not have half of the charitable and social programs we have available to the poor and sick in this country- very ‘liberal’ programs like Social Security, womens’ suffrage, the Veterans Administration, etc, were fought for by many Catholics at the time. (Yes, back then, most ‘conservatives’ did not support the VA, fearing it was more unnecessary government growth. I’d like to see a conservative try to do
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***The term “Progressive” as it applies to discussion of our Catholic Faith and its practices is intended to define those who felt somehow justified in ignoring our Popes teachings, ignoring the Ordinary Magesterium, and inventing the “Spirit of Vatican II” to replace the actual desires and Teachings of the Council.

Thus we have the Spirit of Vatian II mandates to*** …

Remove Ccommunion rails
Relocate and hiden Tabernacles
Have walk around altars
Priest saying Mass facing the Congregation
Communion Under BOTH Speicies
Communion in the hands
Ordianry lay folk ministers [everyday almost everywhere is hardly “Extrodinary”]
Relocation of Chiors to the front
Until recent times the removal of all Latin
Churches made into “gathering spaces”…

This is what I believe the term “Progresive” means. :eek:

But like many of you, I’m not in favor of labeling.

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
My family also was Democratic in the 1960s but things changed by the end of the decade. As I’ve gotten older, I see politics as little more than a game. I have no political affiliation.

Peace,
Ed
 
We all have contradictins. I am a conscientious recycler who regards Climate change s dangerous gaia worshipping nonsense. I am personally the gentlest of men but I am to the rightof Genghis Khan in wanting seriusly long prison terms for violent ofenders. I dislike talk of “freedom” covering up dangerous licence adn arrested development yet I realise man is crooked tiber and on his own unable to bear the weight of truth

We all carry contradictions.
 
Sometimes I find myself wondering if I’m the only ULTRA Conservative on the planet. I can find more ways to “tick” people off unless I really watch my mouth. Being on this forum helps. Cause if I slip here, I toast. And there are many temptations on CAF. Many of the posters really ruffle my feathers but for the most part I can maintain. I seldom stray from the Traditional Forum.
 
PJM said:
***The term “Progressive” as it applies to discussion of our Catholic Faith and its practices is intended to define those who felt somehow justified in ignoring our Popes teachings, ignoring the Ordinary Magesterium, and inventing the “Spirit of Vatican II” to replace the actual desires and Teachings of the Council.

Thus we have the Spirit of Vatian II mandates to*** …

Remove Ccommunion rails
Relocate and hiden Tabernacles
Have walk around altars
Priest saying Mass facing the Congregation
Communion Under BOTH Speicies
Communion in the hands
Ordianry lay folk ministers [everyday almost everywhere is hardly “Extrodinary”]
Relocation of Chiors to the front
Until recent times the removal of all Latin
Churches made into “gathering spaces”…

This is what I believe the term “Progresive” means. :eek:

But like many of you, I’m not in favor of labeling.

Love and prayers,
Pat
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I don’t go for all that, or the rock music at Mass, or any of that Modernist stuff.
 
Perhaps I can clarify. Liturgically and theologically, I want to be in the orthodox centre ground, by that I don’t mean where the ‘average’ Catholic in the West is, I mean that I can appreciate the benefits of change as well as those of tradition. I’m a big fan of the Latin Mass, but find some of the political views of some traditionalists quite frightening.

I also realise that the average Latin Mass today is very different to the average Mass before Vatican II:
Today, most people will be reading along with the Mass in a missal, taking part in the responses, many Latin Mass parishes will have a schola of lay people who will provide beatiful chanted or choral music.
In the past, from what I hear, most people prayed the rosary or read a spiritual book, while at the front the priest quietly mumbled the Mass to his altar server, only cathedrals tended to have music.
Much of this is, in fact, what Vatican II commended - the active participation of the laity. That’s very different from what some people ‘think’ Vatican II was about.

I can also see how in certain ways our society is better than it was in the past - we have come to appreciate the value of each human person, the abolition of slavery, equality before the law, social welfare programmes, universal education. Not everything is better, but some things are better. In a way, I can see how the Church needs to express the eternal truths of the gospel in ways that people in this society can appreciate, and that draws on what is good in the world. When St Paul was preaching to the Greeks, he quotes their own poets and philosophers, explaining things in terms the people understood, without compromising gospel values. Rationally, and in moments of consolation, this is the kind of mission I feel called to in my life.

The kind of dangerous conservative tendency I’m talking about (which I see welling up inside me at times) is the kind that wants to see a return to EVERYTHING that happened in the past, just because it was past, the kind of conservatism that rages that non-Christians or non-Catholics are allowed to build places of public worship, that feels angry that lay people think that they can form opinions, rather than just working with their hands and paying tithes to support their priests, the kind of conservatism that rejects the heart-warming joy of romantic notions of marital love for the sake of a mere contract for procreation. In short, it’s a desire for a return to impersonalism, an overwhelming concern with structure that seeks to crush individuality. It stems from a profound distrust of self. I can trust that the Holy Spirit moves in the Magisterium of the Church, I can’t quite believe that the Holy Spirit moves in me in virtue of my Baptism. It’s a desire to be annhiliated for the sake of an imperfect social order which the Church supported in the past, rather than to be a living sacrifice for the sake of the mission of the Church today. In truth, therefore, it is also a denial that the Holy Spirit moves in the Magisterium of the Church, which has led us away from the evils of crusade and inquisition.

“Therefore every scribe trained for the Kingdom is like a man who brings out of his treasury something old and something new”.
 
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