On burning heretics

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How many times during the history of the Church, did it resolve to use the death penalty in order to take down heresy? Is it not the exception rather than the rule that the death penalty or physical violence was used to quench a heresy? How many of these heresies required the use of the death penalty in order to quench?

Marcionism
Montanism
Donatism
Sabelianism
Manicheanism
Arianism
Nestorianism
Monophyssitism
Monothelitism
Pelagiaism
 
I’m not sure how to respond to this, to be honest. I suppose I agree that a Catholic cannot be torn from the faith because of the teachings of a non-Catholic. Is that what your saying? If so, I agree.

Admittedly, I’m slightly confused.

~ Pius :knight1:
Hehe, I mangled what I wanted to say.

I wanted to say that surely both heresy and pseudo-heresy are equally bad if we judge them by the consequences; although a Catholic heretic priest/bishop is more likely to cause damage than a tattooed, badly looking, Satanist. There has previously been punishment metered out to heretics but has the Church previously taken the same sort of stance against “pseudo-heretics” or people who are not Catholics but spread what the modern lingo could call FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) about God/Church etc.
 
Just curious but how do you know I post at Dr. Feser’s blog? I do so under a (different) pseudonym. Have I previously linked here to some comment I made there?
You posted your rape argument there as well. I suppose you could be TruthOverfaith trolling too but it’s unlikely. 😉

But you are convincing, I must tell you that.
 
You posted your rape argument there as well. I suppose you could be TruthOverfaith trolling too but it’s unlikely. 😉

But you are convincing, I must tell you that.
Ahhh, OK. Fair enough. Thanks for the kind words!
 
Was the crime only that they decided to use the death penalty to deal with the heretics or that they did anything to stop them at all? I can agree that the death penalty, especially burning at the stake was wrong, but I’m pretty confident that if there was a heresy that was spreading like wildfire and threatened the existence of society, the government would move against it and start locking people up.
Executing someone for saying something is wrong and burning!!!

There are countries where people are locked up for saying the ‘wrong’ thing, even today. Some are even executed. If someone incites others to violence, yes they should be locked up. However, someone who speaks against or preaches a diffferent version of or speaks untruths of Christianity, Islam etc may be misguided , wrong, have even bad motives, should not be executed or even locked up. We can never control everyone and everything. It would be better than we teach what Christianity is all about and show by word, deed and example how good our religion is.
 
** If Catholicism is as totalitarian and oppressive and as undemocratic as some posters suggest, no wonder it remains suspect among so many non-Catholics.** Fortunately, most Catholics I know embrace democracy as it has developed in this nation and are proud to be Americans, with all of our nation’s faults.

** I have always assumed that Protestants were viewed as heretics up until John XXIII when they became separated brothers and sisters.** I go back far enough to recall the wildly negative portrayal of Luther in parochial school, how he was a wicked, mentally unstable, rebellious and egotistical priest who violated his vows, married, a nun, dared defy God and the Papacy, etc. Now, when I go to Mass sometimes we have sung “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God”, often referred to as the anthem of the Reformation. Personally I like the change.
**
There seems to be a fight for the soul of Catholicism.** Will it be a narrow, self-possessed, arrogant, intolerant Church which looks down on Protestantism and all other non-Catholic faiths? That position seems to be popular here on CAF. Or, will it be an expansive, warm-hearted Church which respects Protestantism and other faiths? I vote for the latter.

** Personally, I have been driven a distance from the Church by that loud and constant claim that it is the one and only true Church.** This strikes me as a vain and simplistic position in a universe of perhaps a million solar systems as big as our own. I opt for a deep faith in God, a desire to follow Christ, but also a willingness to accept that our particular undestanding of this mammoth, mysterious, magnificent, and miraculous world may be flawed. I think we tend to confuse the very human institution of the Church with God. Might it be that no human being or institution should claim to understand it all? “Now we see through a glass darkly…”
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 **My prediction**. Catholicism will continue to lose millions of its communicants as long as it retains its haughtiness, hubris and hauteur. How that contrasts with the humility of Christ who barely had a place for his tired head at night, who surely didn't worry about the proper vestments, ornate sanctuaries and many priorities and other worldly concerns of the Church today. 

 **Nonetheless, hats off** to those truly humble priests, nuns and others - and there are many - who don't fret about such incidentals but devote their lives to feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless and comforting those who mourn.
 
If I had to pick a cell mate in prison I would take the heretic over the murderer.

If you want to protect yourself from heresey you need only go to Bible Study on mondays after adoration. A little instruction from the clergy will clear the misinformation up. As for murder…
I agree.
 
** If Catholicism is as totalitarian and oppressive and as undemocratic as some posters suggest, no wonder it remains suspect among so many non-Catholics.** Fortunately, most Catholics I know embrace democracy as it has developed in this nation and are proud to be Americans, with all of our nation’s faults.
Who here is advocating totalitarianism? Are you familiar with the history of totalitarian movements and their violent anti-Catholicism? Are you aware that it has a specific connotation, that it does not merely mean “anything I happen to dislike”?

For myself I cannot imagine why any Christian would imagine America, the great abortuary, is so great a nation that we must suspend even our reverence for the kingship of Christ. If any other nation murdered as many of its babies as America does, we would all rightly condemn its wickedness, not try to violently export their pathologies to every corner of the earth.
** I have always assumed that Protestants were viewed as heretics up until John XXIII when they became separated brothers and sisters.** I go back far enough to recall the wildly negative portrayal of Luther in parochial school, how he was a wicked, mentally unstable, rebellious and egotistical priest who violated his vows, married, a nun, dared defy God and the Papacy, etc. Now, when I go to Mass sometimes we have sung “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God”, often referred to as the anthem of the Reformation. Personally I like the change.
So the post-Vatican II Church is one pregnant with the spirit of Protestantism, and this happens to suit everyone who dislikes being expected to do their duty. Whoop-a-dee-doo!

Please don’t pretend like your vile modernism is some kind of grand enlightened principle. Your true religion is comfort.
 
There seems to be a fight for the soul of Catholicism.
Will it be a narrow, self-possessed, arrogant, intolerant Church which looks down on Protestantism and all other non-Catholic faiths? That position seems to be popular here on CAF. Or, will it be an expansive, warm-hearted Church which respects Protestantism and other faiths? I vote for the latter.

Here’s the problem with “respecting” Protestantism* in the way you suggest: Protestantism* denies some fundamental Truths that we are bound to accept…because God told us to. Eucharist…Jesus’ true Body and Blood present in His re-presented one-time Sacrifice, for example, is denied in the Protestant* religions, as is the fact that God established His Church on earth as what we today recognize as the Catholic Church. Protestantism* also rejects any Truth of God that is not explicitly written in Scripture…an idea that Scripture itself rejects. In other words, the Protestant* religions reject certain Truths of the Christian Faith.

We are admonished, several times in Scripture, to speak the Truth, to witness to the Truth and help one another come to Christ. If we just “respect” a Protestant* religion the way you infer, then we are not obeying what we have been instructed to do. We reject God by turning a blind eye to our brothers who are rejecting God (by rejecting His Truth).

** not necessarily all…some or most, etc…*
 
** I hesitate to be put in a position to defend Protestantism**, but coming from a mixed background (French Canadian Catholic and ‘old Yankee’ Protestant) I think I know something about both of these expressions of the Christian faith.

** There are brilliant scholars and devout communicants in both, and the notion that Protestant thinking can be dismissed off-hand as contrary to scripture - for example - is absurd.** If you have ever dealt with Protestant clergy, especially of mainline denominations, with their advanced degrees (four years of college, three years of seminary, and often more) you would be aware that they have weighed such Catholic teachings as transubstantiation and various Marian dogmas and simply disagree with them. Scripture is not very precise regardless of what traditionalist Catholics (and fundamentalist Protestants, too) may claim. From the very outset of Christianity learned scholars have debated what various scriptural passages mean - i. e., which ones are to be taken literally, and which ones may be seen symbolically.

** The principal difference, when everything else is set aside, is the question of authority**. Catholicism teaches that when the Magisterium comes to an official conclusion, then every faithful Catholic must assent to that conclusion. Thus, beginning in 1864 (as I recall the date) every Catholic had to believe in the Immaculate Conception and since 1950 they must believe in the Assumption of Mary, though these are among theological concepts which are very difficult to support from scripture. There simply isn’t clear-cut Biblical confirmation. All Protestants, by the way, honor Mary. They simply don’t practice the same veneration as Catholics do.
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  **Mainline Protestantism, for better or worse, permits wide variation on many matters. **In the same Methodist or Episcopal or Presbyterian parish etc. you will find people who believe literally in scripture (Adam and Eve forward) while others will consider, say, the first eleven chapters of Genesis as a mixture of parable, legend and myth. Some will accept the Biblical account which says in I Kings 2:23ff that when youth mocked Elisha because of his baldness Elisha cursed them in the name of the Lord and two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled them. Others will question this story, and certainly doubt that God would send three she-bears to punish the youth in such a violent way for such a minor offense. Give reasonable thinking people a break!

 We could go on and on.
** All I’m saying is that there should be room in Christianity for different views when it comes to scripture and various doctrines.** This lack of such freedom within Catholicism is one reason as many as 30,000,000 American Catholics have defected. And I read somewhere (the magazine US Catholic, as I recall), that over 50% of self-described Catholics do not believe in transubstantiation, a central dogma of the Church.

As far as totalitarianism is concerned, if a society is ruled by one and only one religion, and all other faiths are forbidden or extremely regulated, I would call that religious totalitarianism. I would, for example, call Saudi Arabia a religious totalitarian state. I’ve found it curious and embarrassing that three of the major totalitarian states in modern times were led by men who were baptized Catholic or Orthodox - Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin. Some would add Franco, whose Falangist regime in Spain did not permit freedom for Protestantism, except where certain foreign consulates (like that of UK) existed.

** God bless Catholics, Protestants and people of every creed**, color, culture and country. Let us make religion a bridge and not a barrier.
 
Well, whether the state should execute offenders of the public order has always been a delicate topic, even in the days when Christendom was united. The reason it was thought to be acceptable is that heresy is a horrible thing, it kills the soul. Just as we punish the murderer who kills the body, so we punish the unrepentant heretic who is attempting to kill the soul by leading it away from the life giving spring of Truth, the One Church established by Our Lord.

Obviously in our age of the Liberal state, Christians are fortunate if they are not persecuted; any talk of a unified Catholic state that could enforce laws against public promulgation of heresy is contra-factual.

What’s more troublesome is the resort to eupemisms about “warm-hearted” churches welcoming all faiths, the Church being overly “rigid” etc., etc. While we owe a duty of charity to all, even those in error, no true Catholic could ever suggest that Our Lord was in error when He founded His Church with Peter as the sole Rock and head of it; or that any separation from this Church is a good thing or to be admired.

It’s a simple proposition Our Lord places before us all: either you accept Him and all He did, including establishing a visible Church ruled by successors of His Apostles; or deny Him. You can’t pick and chose among the Truths entrusted by Him to His one Church. Either enter the narrow road that leads to Life; or chose your own “truths” yourself, which is the broad path that leads to destruction.
 
It’s not entirely accurate to say that no one was punished for simply believing a heresy, and that the crime was teaching it. People were accused of “spreading it” by the very fact that they chose another religion and were a living example of that religion. There is no way to get around it unless one doesn’t tell a soul and lives that religion secretly, which is an unreasonable expectation. By one’s words and actions, people will know they aren’t Catholic, especially in those times. The Church was in error in this matter, and we know that, and JPII knew that. The Church knows better now, as they grow in knowledge and experience, and as the world grows and changes.
Thanks for the link. I love articles, they enrich my papers. I get A’s in school and a very fresh published paper. :tiphat:
 
Something interesting about the sentence of burning of heretics. The Old Testament (Mosaic Law, that is also Arron’s Law) , as said above, allows for this type of killing. But, unless I missed it, in the New Testament there are no burnings among the books that the burning punishment was ever used. If I recall correctly, among the NT letter some reported that one person or another person would be killed by the laws of burning, but no burnings were ever carried out.

One other mention here, Islam doesn’t allow for removal of a person by burning( or, dismemberment)…it’s thought to be something evil as the body must be intact for the soul to find peace in a heavenly state. I, Kara, believe the OT laws are more Muslim then Jewish, but that’s my feelings. 🤷

Perhaps why so many subject fights evolve from nothing is the failure to apply outside, secular understandings to internal scriptural journeys our Holy Bible.
 
Who here is advocating totalitarianism? Are you familiar with the history of totalitarian movements and their violent anti-Catholicism?
Correct, Salazar’s Portugal was authoritarian, not totalitarian.
 
Wow! It blows my mind that there are thinking Christians - Catholics or others - who would actually defend killing ‘heretics’. I want to be kind, but what a wildly outrageous view for any sane person to hold in our democracy today. Such well-intentioned (?) folks obviously reject the Constitution and ought to find another residence, perhaps in Saudi Arabia where heresy is dealt with quite firmly…
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No, my mistake. On second thought, they would have serious trouble there because they then would be the heretics! Gosh, I can't think of any Christian country anywhere that executes heretics. Tough luck! 

So much for freedom of speech, of religion, of assembly and of the press, all guaranteed by our 1st Amendment. Must be the fault of America's evil Founding Fathers. As I recall, 55 of the 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence were really bad heretics - wicked Protestants! Off with their heads, starting with Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Hancock and the rest of them!

 Please! Move out of the medieval world into our remarkable democracy.
In this “remarkable democracy” many more babies are slaughtered in the womb than were burned at the stake in mediaeval times. In fact in 2 days there are more babies slaughtered than in all the centuries of the Inquisitions. Today we live in the most barbaric society in history thanks to our “remarkable democracy”. And this carnage of the innocent is a direct result of a heresy that went viral and is burning the whole world.
 
So the post-Vatican II Church is one pregnant with the spirit of Protestantism, and this happens to suit everyone who dislikes being expected to do their duty. Whoop-a-dee-doo!
Isn’t it heretical to post that on a public forum? You might be leading others away from the Catholic Church - unless you’re some kind of schismatic, the post-Vatican II version of the Catholic Church is the only one you’ve got.
 
No. Remember that when people were stoning Mary Magdelein, Jesus said to those participating, “let he who has not sinned cast the first stone”.

Our faith does not permit us to take life - that is God’s decision.

I believe exceptions are made in defensive situations and war but don’t know enough about it to elaborate. I do know that the Church is clear that death penalties are immoral, abortion is immoral, murder is immoral, mercy killing and euthanasia are immoral.

May I ask, why do you ask this question? Do YOU think it’s ok to burn someone you consider to be a heretic who won’t repent? That would include millions of people and if carried out thoroughly would be the worst crime against humanity of all time.
 
My confessor ( a Dominican no less) once told me that the execution of heretics was okay (w/ certain exemptions) but that the Church’s non-infallible teaching says not to since there’s the possibility of simply locking them up or correcting them by non-lethal punishments.
 
Something interesting about the sentence of burning of heretics. The Old Testament (Mosaic Law, that is also Arron’s Law) , as said above, allows for this type of killing. But, unless I missed it, in the New Testament there are no burnings among the books that the burning punishment was ever used. If I recall correctly, among the NT letter some reported that one person or another person would be killed by the laws of burning, but no burnings were ever carried out.

One other mention here, Islam doesn’t allow for removal of a person by burning( or, dismemberment)…it’s thought to be something evil as the body must be intact for the soul to find peace in a heavenly state. I, Kara, believe the OT laws are more Muslim then Jewish, but that’s my feelings. 🤷

Perhaps why so many subject fights evolve from nothing is the failure to apply outside, secular understandings to internal scriptural journeys our Holy Bible.
Although “burning” may not have been mentioned as a punishment, however, the Bble does show punishment for heretics. We can refer to the Letter to Titus 3:10-11 which states: “A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: 11 Knowing that he that is such an one is subverted and sins, being condemned by his own judgment.”. This seems to be an inspiration to Aquinas’ teachings on the subject.

More so, we can see that Aquinas cited 1 Corinthians 5:5 which states “To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” and Galatians 5:9 which states “A little leaven corrupts the whole lump.”. Biblical support for punishment of heretics is there or atleast, our awareness of heresy in our world.

I’m not making these quotes up or interpreting them myself, I am taking them from Aquinas and his (name removed by moderator)ut. As far as burning - I’m not sure. Perhaps it might just be an efficient way of doing it, I don’t know. All I’m trying to say is that there is evidence in the Bible for both sides. I’m not very good with Scripture so I tend to stick to Church history though.

~ Pius :knight1:
 
Isn’t it heretical to post that on a public forum? You might be leading others away from the Catholic Church - unless you’re some kind of schismatic, the post-Vatican II version of the Catholic Church is the only one you’ve got.
👍👍👍
 
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