On Dangerous Reading

[Razanir]

Directed at Mathematoons

The Lord of the Rings has some amazing Catholic themes in it (EWTN even aired a special on it), so I can’t believe that all fiction is bad.

You’ve seen my post in another thread (you’ve even linked here from it)

:doh2:

If you had picked certain other fantasy series (like a Song of Fire and Ice/Game of Thrones), I could see where you’re coming from that fantasy could be dangerous to your spiritual health. But no, you picked Lord of the Rings.

First, a bit of back story for J.R.R. Tolkien. He and his family were Anglican growing up, but they converted to Catholicism after his father died and a priest helped raise them. Later on, he converted C.S. Lewis (who is more famous for apologetics) from atheism, but to Tolkien’s dismay, Lewis became Anglican instead Also, Tolkien’s eldest son is actually a priest and gave his father’s funeral Mass.

As you could no doubt guess by now, Lord of the Rings actually has not just Christian, but CATHOLIC themes in it. One example is a quote from Galadriel that I actually use to describe the Sacraments. Some atheists might call them magic in mockery of our beliefs, but it’s the same as with Elf-magic: “For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe: though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.”

Another example of the Catholic themes is lembas. Here’s a few hints as to what it resembles:
-Doesn’t fill you up physically, but it’s still a much more filling meal than any normal food
-Evil people (Gollum) choke on it
Any guesses? That’s right. There’s Eucharistic overtones.

There are also examples in some of the mythology on Middle-Earth. Melkor Morgoth, of whom Sauron is only the right hand man, was NOT always evil. He was created good, but fell, like Lucifer → Satan. Also, evil cannot create– only pervert and destroy. Melkor only created “life” (the orcs) by torturing and corrupting elves.

And last, but certainly not least, is the One Ring itself. It represents sin. I’m not so well-read on that analogy, but here’s an interesting part I do know. It was destroyed on March 25. If you’re having trouble recognizing the date, try adding 9 months. That’s right. Tolkien chose to have the Ring be destroyed on the Feast of the Annunciation.

The point of this short rant (believe me. I could go on for a while about LotR) is to show that fiction is neither inherently evil or inherently good. As long as we don’t let it consume our lives and make us forget about the important things, it’s perfectly fine. I even get one of my favorite quotes to use about the Sacraments from a fiction book.

What exactly do you think of books like Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia?

 

[mathematoons]

What exactly do you think of books like Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia?

Why look for bits of truth in fiction when you can go to Scripture and Church teaching, which are nothing but truth? False religions also have bits of the truth. That doesn’t make them good.

 

[Razanir]

Why look for bits of truth in fiction when you can go to Scripture and Church teaching, which are nothing but truth? False religions also have bits of the truth. That doesn’t make them good.

So by this logic, the only reading allowed should be the Bible. Because if it has (spiritual) truth, why would we ever need to read anything else?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The people who know me the best are in the best position to tell others what I think, so it follows that the people who know God the best are in the best position to tell us what He thinks.

The only person who knows God best is God Himself. Repeat after me: Saints. Are. Human.

No, it’s just fiction I’m talking about in this thread. With the dangers quoted in the original post, it does us good to ask ourselves what we lose if we give up fiction. Would we miss any specific work of fiction if it didn’t exist? Such a loss would be imaginary, not real; after all, we don’t miss the works Mozart would have composed if he hadn’t died at 35 (except for diehard Mozart fans).

Ironically, the loss is pretty much real. Just because the contents are fiction does not change the physical existence of the words that are telling the story. Alice in Wonderland and other related literature are all fictional accounts but the word vorpal has already made itself onto the dictionary. Such is the legacy of fiction which you oh so despise.

Some are saying fiction is not sin. But neither is smoking. That doesn’t mean it’s good for you.

Apples and oranges. You fancy yourself as a logical one yet you don’t even try to refute the fact that the greater poison is the reality we have to put up day after day. Ignore me if you want, I relish it because it only shows you’re full of hot air in defending the one thing escapism cures.

I think I’m just going to let your hostile words speak for themselves.

And I let your lack of response do the greater speaking. It’s a wonderful demonstration of a man devoid of defense. You’re not the first to ignore someone because they can’t stand the bluntness of reality.

Why look for bits of truth in fiction when you can go to Scripture and Church teaching, which are nothing but truth? False religions also have bits of the truth. That doesn’t make them good.

Is human life and human civilization always about being hellbent on a quest for truth? Following your logic, you should cease the following things immediately:

Toss out your math and science books. They’re not Scripture and Church teaching either.
Cease seeking pleasure and relaxation altogether. Your logic condemns everything. Not just fiction (you’re only kidding yourself otherwise).

Unfortunately, our history disagrees with you. The greatest forms of pleasure and relaxation rank fiction among the top. It’s why even our Jewish ancestors passed on their own history in the form of allegory instead of empirical accounts.

 

[Fairwinds]

Why look for bits of truth in fiction when you can go to Scripture and Church teaching, which are nothing but truth? False religions also have bits of the truth. That doesn’t make them good.

both are Christian in outlook and neither is a “false religion”.

frankly, they’re both more fun to read.

 

[mathematoons]

So by this logic, the only reading allowed should be the Bible. Because if it has (spiritual) truth, why would we ever need to read anything else?

You have the basic idea right. The purpose of reading is instruction, not entertainment. The Bible, Catechism, and saints’ works are all good for spiritual instruction. Of course, we need other books for other things. To learn to play a musical instrument, study for an exam, or learn a foreign language, we need other books. But fiction doesn’t fall into either category. Even if it did, the problems I talked about are too great to ignore. My books on how to play classical piano don’t repeatedly expose me to crime and vice; my actuarial exam study guide doesn’t emotionally attach me to imaginary, unrealistic people; my French-English dictionary doesn’t teach heresy. I could be fairly secure in this knowledge before opening those books for the first time.

The saints, by doing what they did, made it to Heaven. Can we afford to ignore them and try to bumble along our own fallible paths?

 

[Fairwinds]

…The purpose of reading is instruction, not entertainment…

you can’t make axiomatic claims like that and expect to go unchallenged. whoever told you that?

 

[Razanir]

You have the basic idea right. The purpose of reading is instruction, not entertainment. The Bible, Catechism, and saints’ works are all good for spiritual instruction. Of course, we need other books for other things. To learn to play a musical instrument, study for an exam, or learn a foreign language, we need other books. But fiction doesn’t fall into either category. Even if it did, the problems I talked about are too great to ignore. My books on how to play classical piano don’t repeatedly expose me to crime and vice; my actuarial exam study guide doesn’t emotionally attach me to imaginary, unrealistic people; my French-English dictionary doesn’t teach heresy. I could be fairly secure in this knowledge before opening those books for the first time.

The saints, by doing what they did, made it to Heaven. Can we afford to ignore them and try to bumble along our own fallible paths?

you can’t make axiomatic claims like that and expect to go unchallenged. whoever told you that?

And with said axiom, you’re speaking against not just all fiction, but against all entertainment whatsoever

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Why look for bits of truth in fiction when you can go to Scripture and Church teaching, which are nothing but truth? False religions also have bits of the truth. That doesn’t make them good.

Not everyone is meant to be locked in a prayer closet. Or do you deny that God works in mysterious ways?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

But fiction doesn’t fall into either category. Even if it did, the problems I talked about are too great to ignore.

As I’ve stated before, which you continue to ignore due to your knee-jerk, emotional response to bluntness, your logic fails to account how reality has it worse.

Observe:

My books on how to play classical piano don’t repeatedly expose me to crime and vice;

The journalism industry says hi.

my actuarial exam study guide doesn’t emotionally attach me to imaginary, unrealistic people;

Thanks to you, I’m now glad to know that there are more socially inept people than me out there. As if real people don’t do any (or even more) damage when you’re emotionally attached to them.

I’ll take the drama of a mecha pilot compared to the lot I’ve got right now.

my French-English dictionary doesn’t teach heresy.

Richard Dawkins doesn’t write fiction either but I’m sure you know his books aren’t exactly friendly towards Catholic readers (or that of any religion’s). You know Obama’s written a few things as well? Must be nice knowing non-fiction is sooooo pure.

The saints, by doing what they did, made it to Heaven. Can we afford to ignore them and try to bumble along our own fallible paths?

Frankly, I find exploring the darker side of human nature more insightful compared to reading flowery descriptions of Beatific visions. Same goes for condemnations of vice. As everyone said, when people read the saints in context, it is often too medieval, simplistic.

It says a lot about the writings you hail when it takes the work of advanced philosophers and theologians to extrapolate and apply to modern life.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

And with said axiom, you’re speaking against not just all fiction, but against all entertainment whatsoever

Notice the sparseness of his responses Raz. I really can’t take his claims of being logical and us being ‘emotional’ too seriously. I was never a part of my highschool debate club but even they could’ve torn holes in what we’ve had to put up so far.

 

[Fairwinds]

…My books on how to play classical piano don’t repeatedly expose me to crime and vice;…

I learned the art of jazz drumming from reading Hunter S. Thompson’s novels.

 

[aspirant]

I think the saints are in a very good position to tell us what is good and bad.

Excluding the angels, saints are human. With the sole exception of the Blessed Mother, their lives were, like ours, mixtures of sin and virtue. They were also, like us, variously ignorant and knowledgeable, changeable, and sometimes inconsistent.

St. Augustine, mentioned previously, was an example of inconsistency. You previously brought us an unsourced quote, supposedly from Augustine, telling us not to read pagan books. Yet the early education of Augustine consisted almost entirely of pagan literature, he employed what he learned from pagan literature in the service of God, he also said positive things about pagan literature, and none of that kept him from becoming a saint and doctor of the Church.

And here’s an example in which Augustine frankly encourages Christians to “plunder” pagan books for the truths they contain:
Saint Augustine:

If those who are called philosophers, especially the Platonists, have said things which are indeed true and in harmony with our faith, they should not be feared; rather, what they have said should be taken from them as from unjust possessors and converted to our use.

Just as the Egyptians had not only idols and grave burdens which the people of Israel detested and avoided, so also they had vases and ornaments of gold and silver and clothing which the Israelites took with them secretly when they fled, as if to put them to a better use. They did not do this on their own authority but at God’s commandment, while the Egyptians unwittingly supplied them with things which they themselves did not use well. (Exodus 3:22, 11:2, 12:35)

In the same way all the teachings of the pagans contain not only simulated and superstitious imaginings and grave burdens of unnecessary labor, which each one of us leaving the society of pagans under the leadership of Christ ought to abhor and avoid, but they contain also liberal instruction which is better adapted to the use of the truth, and some most excellent precepts of morality; and some truths in regard even to the worship of the One God are found among them. These are, as it were, their gold and silver, which they did not institute themselves but dug up from certain mines of divine Providence, which is everywhere infused, and perversely and injuriously abused in the worship of demons. When the Christian separates himself in spirit from their miserable society, he should take this treasure with him for the just use of teaching the gospel. And their clothing, which is made up of those human institutions which are accommodated to human society and necessary to the conduct of life, should be seized and held to be converted to Christian uses.

In other words, we should not fear pagan ideas, we should grab every truth we can find in pagan thought and put it in the service of Christ where it rightly belongs.

This is a practice with biblical warrant-- and not merely according to Augustine’s allegorical interpretation, either. St. Paul actually demonstrates this practice in Acts 17. In preaching to the Athenians, Paul quotes pagan literature in the service of the Gospel.

So if “the people who know God the best are in the best position to tell us what He thinks,” then apparently God wants us to be familiar with pagan literature and grab all the truth from it that we can.

it’s just fiction I’m talking about in this thread.

If that were true, you wouldn’t have come around with that “Augustine thought non-Christian books were bad for everyone” post.

Would we miss any specific work of fiction if it didn’t exist?

I certainly would. I’ll be blunt here: Were it not for the courses in Christian literature that I took in college, I’d probably still be a pagan. And were it not for the stories of Flannery O’Connor, I probably wouldn’t have become a Catholic. Art brought me to the Church.

So by this logic, the only reading allowed should be the Bible.

As I mentioned before, if we actually took the OP’s arguments seriously, we could not even read the Bible. That Presbyterian chap argued, against fiction, that:
"Presbyterian iconoclast:

the heroes and heroines, who are painted as defying the rules of good morals in some vital points, are still adorned with many imaginary qualities, such as courage, magnanimity, generosity, wit, and genius, which cause the young and impulsive reader to admire them in spite of their crimes.

If he really and truly believed this was a valid argument against reading fiction, he would also have to prohibit Christians from reading the lives of the Patriarchs and other biblical saints, as well as the lives of many other saints since, because their egregious sins are depicted as well as their virtues. We do admire them “in spite of their crimes.” In reading nothing but the Bible, we’d still be “repeatedly exposed to crime and vice.” The OP’s argument isn’t just ludicrously restrictive, it’s self-contradictory.

The Bible, Catechism, and saints’ works are all good for spiritual instruction.

Again, if we really took your arguments seriously, the Bible and lives of the saints would also be prohibited.

My books on how to play classical piano don’t repeatedly expose me to crime and vice

The Bible and lives of the saints, on the other hand, do.

The saints, by doing what they did, made it to Heaven.

Yep. And the saints made it to heaven after reading fiction, pagan books, and heretical books.

 

[aspirant]

If the Catholic Church wants us to stop participating in imaginative art, the popes are doing a terrible job of communicating that message…
Pope Pius XII:

An ideal film, then, has truly the high office of putting the great possibilities and power of influence, which we already recognise in the craft of the Cinema, at the service of man, and of being an aid to him in maintaining and rendering effective his self-expression in the path of right and goodness. It is no secret that for this, outstanding artistic gifts are necessary in the director… The ideal film… intends to use every power to serve {worthy ideals}… It does not make an empty show of moralizing, but more than makes up for this lack by positive work which, as circumstances demand, instructs, delights, diffuses genuine and noble joy and pleasure, and cuts off every approach to boredom. It is at once light and profound, imaginative and real. In a word, it knows how to lead without interruption or shocks to the bright realms of art and enjoyment, in such a manner that the spectator, at the conclusion, leaves the hall, more light-hearted, relaxed, and better within himself, than he entered. If at that moment, he were to meet the producer or the director of the writer, he would not fail, perhaps, to take him in a friendly embrace in a burst of admiration and thanks, as We personally, in a fatherly manner, would thank them in the name of so many persons changed for the better.

Pope John Paul II:

I would like to express my warmest gratitude to those who have made it possible to preview this evening a work which is important for so many reasons. I congratulate first of all both the director, Mr Jerzy Kawalerowicz, and the producer, Mr Mirosław Słowiński, for having produced a far-reaching work, which shows the timelessness of the novel by Henryk Sienkiewicz, written more than a century ago and earned him the Nobel Prize in 1905… Heartfelt thanks for this special evening go to everyone present, and above all, to those who produced the film: to the director, Jerzy Kawalerowicz, to the excellent actors and to those who in any way contributed to the production of this work of art… I only want to thank you for the careful way in which you produced it - you respected Sienkiewicz’s masterpiece, but, above all, you respected the Christian tradition from which it is drawn… We must return to the drama which {Christ’s witnesses} experienced in their souls, in which they confronted, face to face, human fear and superhuman courage, the desire to live and the will to be faithful until death, the sense of solitude before unfeeling hatred and the experience of the power that flows from the close, invisible presence of God and of the common faith of the early Church. We need to return to that drama so that the question can arise: does something of that drama take place in me? The film Quo Vadis makes it possible for us to return to this moving tradition of persecution and helps us to find ourselves in it… Once again, I thank those who have offered and organized this evening’s premiere, and I impart to you all and to those dear to you a heartfelt Apostolic Blessing.

Pope Benedict XVI:

Man thirsts for truth, he seeks truth; this fact is illustrated by the attention and the success achieved by so many publications, programmes or quality fiction in which the truth, beauty and greatness of the person, including the religious dimension of the person, are acknowledged and favourably presented.

This one’s a twofer: Both FICTION and a PAGAN PHILOSOPHER’S MYTHOLOGY in a PAPAL ENCYCLICAL! Read at your own risk.
Pope Benedict XVI:

God is justice and creates justice. This is our consolation and our hope. And in his justice there is also grace. This we know by turning our gaze to the crucified and risen Christ. Both these things—justice and grace—must be seen in their correct inner relationship. Grace does not cancel out justice. It does not make wrong into right. It is not a sponge which wipes everything away, so that whatever someone has done on earth ends up being of equal value. Dostoevsky, for example, was right to protest against this kind of Heaven and this kind of grace in his novel The Brothers Karamazov. Evildoers, in the end, do not sit at table at the eternal banquet beside their victims without distinction, as though nothing had happened. Here I would like to quote a passage from Plato which expresses a premonition of just judgement that in many respects remains true and salutary for Christians too. Albeit using mythological images, he expresses the truth with an unambiguous clarity, saying that in the end souls will stand naked before the judge. It no longer matters what they once were in history, but only what they are in truth: “Often, when it is the king or some other monarch or potentate that he (the judge) has to deal with, he finds that there is no soundness in the soul whatever; he finds it scourged and scarred by the various acts of perjury and wrong-doing …; it is twisted and warped by lies and vanity, and nothing is straight because truth has had no part in its development. Power, luxury, pride, and debauchery have left it so full of disproportion and ugliness that when he has inspected it (he) sends it straight to prison, where on its arrival it will undergo the appropriate punishment … Sometimes, though, the eye of the judge lights on a different soul which has lived in purity and truth … then he is struck with admiration and sends him to the isles of the blessed.”

 

[RPRPsych]

I think this is reaching an auto-reductio-ad-absurdam, if such a thing is possible.

If I’m not mistaken, Blessed John Paul II wrote a play himself.

St. Augustine’s words against “pagan poets” must be placed in their proper context, namely, the Roman theatres of the day, which often portrayed sexually immoral acts, besides being a prop to the idolatrous religions of their time.

Besides, believing that “reading fiction is sinful” (and therefore “one should read only the Bible, the Catechism, and piano books”) veers uncomfortably close to the notion that salvation is of our own works, and that we all need to live like ascetics, as if the world were one large monastery. There’s a name for that: Pelagianism, and we all know what St. Augustine thought about that.

If fiction affects you in the wrong way, stay away. There’s nothing wrong with that. But don’t presume that you constitute some sort of parallel Magisterium who can rule on what the rest of the faithful ought, or ought not, to do. There’s a name for that too: presumption.

 

[Fairwinds]

If the Catholic Church wants us to stop participating in imaginative art, the popes are doing a terrible job of communicating that message…

This one’s a twofer: Both FICTION and a PAGAN PHILOSOPHER’S MYTHOLOGY in a PAPAL ENCYCLICAL! Read at your own risk.

game, set and match.

 

[Joe_5859]

If I’m not mistaken, Blessed John Paul II wrote a play himself.

Yes, he did. And he’ll be Saint John Paul II soon enough.

If all fiction without exception was a grave spiritual danger to all people, don’t you think we might have seen some mention about it in some recent Church document? Fiction is everywhere. How could the Church fail to condemn something that was so pervasive and insidious? That would be irresponsible for She who is responsible for the salvation of souls.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Those with ‘read-only-scripture, all else is a sin’ attitudes drive people away.

Repeat. They drive people AWAY. Away from church, away from God. I know. I’m one of the driven. These types just about ran me off.

As it is I had to steer clear of CAF for a while.

This is making the innerwebs rounds. What do you think? Whose voice is telling you good stories are wicked?

God’s Voice:

Stills you
Leads you
Reassures you
Enlightens you
Comforts you
Calms you
Convicts you

But Satan’s Voice:

Rushes you
Pushes you
Frightens you
Confuses you
Discourages you
Worries you
Obsesses you
Condemns you.

I like the handwritten version but the pic is too big.

 

[Joe_5859]

Those with ‘read-only-scripture, all else is a sin’ attitudes drive people away.

Repeat. They drive people AWAY. Away from church, away from God. I know. I’m one of the driven. These types just about ran me off.

As it is I had to steer clear of CAF for a while.

This is making the innerwebs rounds. What do you think? Whose voice is telling you good stories are wicked?

I like the handwritten version but the pic is too big.

Thank you for emphasizing this point.

Story-telling is as old as the human race. The assertion that all fictitious stories are dangerous/sinful is beyond extreme.

 

[Fairwinds]

I still can’t tell if the OP is trolling or serious.