On Defense of the Truth

[Quaere_Verum]

Some topics exist which will flame into a raging wildfire if you but breathe their name. They roar so loudly that you soon forget they began with a whisper. I believe that God’s Truth resides deep within my soul. However, I do not have the gift which many of you have to access Truth or put Her into words, so I just sit back and read with great interest.

At first glance it may appear that you are at odds with one another. Looking more closely, however, one thing is evident – most of you have a deep love for the Church. While reading your passionate defenses of the Church I begin to wonder, “Is it ever O.K. to just sit back and have faith in Truth and faith in your Catholic brothers’ love for the Church?” Is it ever O.K. to say, “If my Catholic friend dies in error or if I die in error, it will not change the Truth for Truth always prevails over error?” Or is it always important to speak out against error even when minor?

Thanks for helping me to understand this.

 

[netmilsmom]

Quaere Verum:

Some topics exist which will flame into a raging wildfire if you but breathe their name. They roar so loudly that you soon forget they began with a whisper. I believe that God’s Truth resides deep within my soul. However, I do not have the gift which many of you have to access Truth or put Her into words, so I just sit back and read with great interest.

At first glance it may appear that you are at odds with one another. Looking more closely, however, one thing is evident – most of you have a deep love for the Church. While reading your passionate defenses of the Church I begin to wonder, “Is it ever O.K. to just sit back and have faith in Truth and faith in your Catholic brothers’ love for the Church?” Is it ever O.K. to say, “If my Catholic friend dies in error or if I die in error, it will not change the Truth for Truth always prevails over error?” Or is it always important to speak out against error even when minor?

Thanks for helping me to understand this.

My Protestant Hubby loves to see us actually discuss what is going on in the church, even if it gets heated. He says that this is the way Catholics work things out and in the long run we remain Catholic.
As a Protestant, he saw where people left his church and founded a new one for these kind of differences.

We are like a family at a Holiday dinner. We may fight, but in the end, we all love each other.

Except the traditionalists! No one likes us. (Just kidding!)

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Good analysis. Yup, I understand the Catholics are like family concept. I come from a family that if you don’t speak loud enough nobody listens. Once a friend joined us and thought all those aunts, uncles, and cousins at the table were arguing but couldn’t understand why they were smiling & laughing as well. Everybody was happy as long as they were talking; it didn’t seem to matter that nobody was listening. In contrast to this, some of us became observers & listeners. I guess I’m still sitting back observing, and in the case of the forums, reading.

Keep up the good job defending the faith netmil(name removed by moderator). We all can learn alot from you you ol’ traditionalist you .

 

[bear06]

Is it ever O.K. to say, “If my Catholic friend dies in error or if I die in error, it will not change the Truth for Truth always prevails over error?” Or is it always important to speak out against error even when minor?

Who would want them or their loved ones to die in error? I’m sure most of us will on one subject or another but should we just resign ourselves to this fact? Truth will triumph but why would we want ourselves or our loved ones to sit in purgatory a minute longer because of our errors?

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Those are some great words bear06. And you’re right, who would want our loved one’s one minute more in purgatory if we, in fact, could help prevent this. But, could we inadvertently offend Truth in our attempt to defend Her? That is to say, by upsetting the peace between ourselves and our brethern, are we not offending Truth?

 

[Orionthehunter]

Quaere Verum:

Those are some great words bear06. And you’re right, who would want our loved one’s one minute more in purgatory if we, in fact, could help prevent this. But, could we inadvertently offend Truth in our attempt to defend Her? That is to say, by upsetting the peace between ourselves and our brethern, are we not offending Truth?

I think you are onto something here, especially in our evangalization to fallen Catholics and our separated brethren. There is a way to be charitable without sacrificing the Truth. And, sometimes being charitable is the best articulation of the Truth.

In the words of St. Paul, “pray constantly” and in the words of St. Francis, “always preach the Gospel. Only if necessary, use words.”

Let me highlight two issues: Abortion and homosexuality. We all know that Scripture, Theology, and the secular/science arguments that we believe should lead a rational person to embrace the Church’s teaching on these issues. However, if one is on the other side on the issue, I’m not sure all these arguments will reach such a person becuase of the emotions involved.

In both these cases, I believe that giving and showing our Christian charity to the person and urging them to take the issue to prayer is a critical first step. The Holy Spirit can and will do His work if the person opens his heart and soul to the whispering voice of God.

I’m just not confident that harsh and judgmental condemnation of the person struggling with same sex attraction will lead to a conversion of heart. I can’t recall one single time that harsh criticism by my mother or wife ever got me to really change my heart. It might have caused me to desist for a time or go underground but it didn’t change my heart. For this same reason, if my mother or wife can’t MAKE me change my heart, I doubt that such criticism from strangers or acquaintances will be more effective.

Furthermore, with regard to abortion, in addition to our political efforts on the issue, I think we (as laity) need to do more on the secular temporal front. We need to find and dedicate more resources to abortion alternatives (ala economic assistance for poor pregnant mothers just to complete the pregnancy and pay for its birth). We need to effectively market our social counseling services to Catholics and non-Catholics so that these pregnant women turn first to right-minded counselors. We need to be ready to pair these pregnant mothers up with potential adoptive families so the woman can see abortion for what it is- the denial of this human a chance to fulfill its personal role in God’s plan.

Our diocese has made two pledges to all pregnant women in the diocese (not just Catholic women) who don’t want their child. We will provide financial assistance to them to get thru the pregnancy and we will find an adoptive family for their child. It can be a closed or open adoption depending on the desires of the birth mother. We also promise that if the birth mother desires in the future to convert a closed adoption to an open adoption, she can.

But that isn’t enough. We need to communicate to the public that we have made these resources available such that no baby will go unwanted and unloved. So many of the people supporting abortion rights hide under the banner “we have too many unloved and unwanted babies now.” If we want to open their hearts, we need to remove the intellectual barriers. And combined with prayers, this is how we will end this senseless murder of unborn babies.

 

[AJV]

St. Paul wrote to St. Timothy about those who were led into error. He said

If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed. 1 Timothy 4:6

I guess he pretty much answers the question of why we should correct those who deviate from the Truth

Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. 1 Timothy 4:16

 

[bear06]

Orionthehunter:

I think you are onto something here, especially in our evangalization to fallen Catholics and our separated brethren. There is a way to be charitable without sacrificing the Truth. And, sometimes being charitable is the best articulation of the Truth.

In the words of St. Paul, “pray constantly” and in the words of St. Francis, “always preach the Gospel. Only if necessary, use words.”

Let me highlight two issues: Abortion and homosexuality. We all know that Scripture, Theology, and the secular/science arguments that we believe should lead a rational person to embrace the Church’s teaching on these issues. However, if one is on the other side on the issue, I’m not sure all these arguments will reach such a person becuase of the emotions involved.

In both these cases, I believe that giving and showing our Christian charity to the person and urging them to take the issue to prayer is a critical first step. The Holy Spirit can and will do His work if the person opens his heart and soul to the whispering voice of God.

I’m just not confident that harsh and judgmental condemnation of the person struggling with same sex attraction will lead to a conversion of heart. I can’t recall one single time that harsh criticism by my mother or wife ever got me to really change my heart. It might have caused me to desist for a time or go underground but it didn’t change my heart. For this same reason, if my mother or wife can’t MAKE me change my heart, I doubt that such criticism from strangers or acquaintances will be more effective.

Furthermore, with regard to abortion, in addition to our political efforts on the issue, I think we (as laity) need to do more on the secular temporal front. We need to find and dedicate more resources to abortion alternatives (ala economic assistance for poor pregnant mothers just to complete the pregnancy and pay for its birth). We need to effectively market our social counseling services to Catholics and non-Catholics so that these pregnant women turn first to right-minded counselors. We need to be ready to pair these pregnant mothers up with potential adoptive families so the woman can see abortion for what it is- the denial of this human a chance to fulfill its personal role in God’s plan.

Our diocese has made two pledges to all pregnant women in the diocese (not just Catholic women) who don’t want their child. We will provide financial assistance to them to get thru the pregnancy and we will find an adoptive family for their child. It can be a closed or open adoption depending on the desires of the birth mother. We also promise that if the birth mother desires in the future to convert a closed adoption to an open adoption, she can.

But that isn’t enough. We need to communicate to the public that we have made these resources available such that no baby will go unwanted and unloved. So many of the people supporting abortion rights hide under the banner “we have too many unloved and unwanted babies now.” If we want to open their hearts, we need to remove the intellectual barriers. And combined with prayers, this is how we will end this senseless murder of unborn babies.

I’d have to say that I agree with you. Speaking the Truth can always be done in a loving manner. We must rely on the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit in all of our endevours. Speaking the Truth doesn’t alway mean saying “I’m right stupid!” That said, the Truth should always be spoken Quaere Verum. How we speak it is an entirely different matter. We can have a quiet apostolate or an in your face one. Both are needed. That said, we must rely fully on the Holy Spirit to guide us in our approach and to use all of the humility we can muster to discern what He is calling us to do. Yes, we will get it wrong from time to time but Christ can even use us in our failings. We can never offend Truth by speaking it. We can only offend Truth if we don’t rely on the Holy Spirit. We need to make sure we remember that none of us corner the market when it comes to the Holy Spirit. Maybe our calling is not somebody else’s calling. That doesn’t necessarily mean that what they feel called to do is wrong. It’s just not our calling. Humility is the key!

 

[Quaere_Verum]

I’m referring to minor error. Yes, major error needs to be corrected, but what have you gained if you run a saber through someone for a minor infraction when a simple slap on the hand would do? And how do you cure the ignorant by chopping off their head? And since when do you run someone over when they were simply asking for direction?

Aren’t charity & peace part of Truth?

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Yes, humility is definately the key.

 

[bear06]

Quaere Verum:

I’m referring to minor error. Yes, major error needs to be corrected, but what have you gained if you run a saber through someone for a minor infraction when a simple slap on the hand would do? And how do you cure the ignorant by chopping off their head? And since when do you run someone over when they were simply asking for direction?

Aren’t charity & peace part of Truth?

Maye it would help to have an example. There are accidents and there is sin. If someone is ignorant, they probably aren’t culpable. Now, if someone chews someone out for spelling incorrectly (as often happens on these boards) then, obviously, humility may be lacking. I doubt spelling errors are going to add to our time in purgatory.

Like I said, maybe an example would help. I personally don’t think Peace and Truth always go hand in hand. It’s alot easier to deal with someone in a quiet manner who is in error than it is to deal with someone who is in error and who is leading others into error. I’d have to say that all of us are just a hop, skip and a jump away from hell or a long stay in purgatory!

 

[Quaere_Verum]

I was rethinking what I said and maybe what I’m referring to is people’s interpretation of Truth & not Truth itself. You asked for an example bear06, and an example that jumps out is discussions on liturgical abuses. There is no doubt that people on both sides of the issues are devoted to the Church and the integrity of the Eucharist. Can both be right? Maybe! However, more than likely someone is in error but the error is probably minor. In these cases, should we just trust our Catholic brethren’s love for Truth and let these issues slide? After all, maybe my interpretation of what the Church states on these matters is the one which is flawed. Does defense or practice of minor error translate to purgatory time? How about inciting your brethren to anger? Which of these is a bigger offense?

 

[maryj]

I don’t feel as though peace is necessarily quiet! I can’t explain the peace in my life, I only know it is truly there. And I’m fairly certain it didn’t come quietly!! does that make any sense.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Quaere,

You have a very beautiful spirit, and it is refreshing to read your posts.

In these cases, should we just trust our Catholic brethren’s love for Truth and let these issues slide? After all, maybe my interpretation of what the Church states on these matters is the one which is flawed. Does defense or practice of minor error translate to purgatory time? How about inciting your brethren to anger? Which of these is a bigger offense?

You are so right about “inciting your brethren to anger being the bigger offense!” I have come to realize that these threads are very often an occasion of sin for me, and I have to pray double-time to overcome my natural reaction to them.

I will pray today about your good words, as to whether or not it is worth continuing to debate about these minor infractions, for I have seen, in truth, that it rarely does any positive good with the persons involved in them. The only real benefit may come for a casual reader who is able to fumble their way through the words and come to their own conclusion of truth.

The liturgy has changed hundreds of times throughout the centuries, and will probably change again after our lifetime. My parish gave a wonderful video presentation on the history of these changes, but the immutable parts of the mass will never change. So it seems senseless to debate the changeable parts that have no bearing on validity or on the essential sacrifice of the Mass.

Father Corapi mentioned Saturday evening that he knew a person who was very critical of the clergy and continuously voiced their discontent publicly. He said this person died of cancer of the tongue.

Isn’t it true that the pharisees who knew the laws often criticized Jesus Himself about his lack of observance of them? Their heart was never in the right place from the get-go, and Christ admonished them for it, time and again. “It is mercy I desire, and not sacrifice.”

God’s blessings be with you always,
Carole

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

Isn’t it true that the pharisees who knew the laws often criticized Jesus Himself about his lack of observance of them? Their heart was never in the right place from the get-go, and Christ admonished them for it, time and again. “It is mercy I desire, and not sacrifice.”

But you see, the thing about the Pharisees is that they had a “Holier than thou” attitude. That was the problem. Christ was not saying, don’t follow any traditions, He was saying, don’t revel in your own holiness while correcting others.
It makes me laugh that some of the people who are into innovations or excuse abuses as “just little ones” constantly use the Pharisees as an example. They never see that coating an admonishment with sugar doesn’t make it any better. The “I’m more Christian than you” doesn’t cut it either.
Jesus had a better attitude toward the Pharisess than the Sadducees who felt that Modern ways were the way to go and tolerated everything.
Perhaps one should not second guess motivations of those who defend traditions by assuming each goes back to the parish and is just as vocal. We need a place to vent and this is it. If the people who are into the innovations would put the shoe on the other foot and think about what it would be like if THEIR way of worshipping was suddenly looked at with disgust, we could all get along.
The pendullum is swinging and that might just happen before we know it. I am very blessed to be where I am, but should my family have to move, I will be where I was before. Having to worship in a way that I am not comfortable with.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Net,

What is amusing to me is that some seem to believe that because I am vocal with those who complain about liturgical changes, it means I prefer and/or accept some of these manners of celebrating. Never, to my knowledge at this writing, have I stated my preference other than that the tabernacle remain behind the altar of celebration.

If anyone can find my statement of advocating or opposing any liturgical action, I will eat my words, but I am very careful not to express my opinion – it really is not important what “I” think. In fact, there are some issues I totally dislike and have not expressed, since my faith lies 100% in what the Church has promulgated, provided the immutable parts remain fixed. In every life situation, there will be adjustments people have to make in order to live in harmony – we all need to bend our wills more than we might like, in order to “wash each others’ feet.”

Mostly, I have critiqued the attitudes of some traditionalists for their intolerance of those who have accepted the liturgical changes. The pendulum does indeed swing both ways. For the most part, the arguments I commonly observe come from those who are dis-satisfied. I believe this is typical of human nature, but it is not conducive whatsoever to unity.

I’m not excusing those who defend their acceptance of the changes, either. For both sides have their own responsibility to exercise tolerance of the other. This is at the very heart of my many posts - unity, tolerance, charity - mercy!

Carole

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

I believe this is typical of human nature, but it is not conducive whatsoever to unity.

When one, and this may not be you, dismisses others concerns with a hefty dose of “tolerance is Christian” it does not give to unity. When one persons concern is lessened and not validated THAT destroys unity. We are all Catholics, we all go to Mass and celebrate our gift from Our Lord. Both sides should see that not everything is acceptable with everyone.
But to play the Devil’s Advocate without stating that this is one’s goal, makes people reading those posts misunderstand what that goal is.

Anyone who has read my posts and debates that I have gotten into with various posters, understand that I DO NOT want to take away anyone’s form of worship. However, I do believe that the innovations need to be isolated and given their place. If one knows that it is a Life Teen Mass or A Charismatic Mass innovations are nothing to be complained about. But to have the innovations become normalized and traditions marginalized deserves to be addressed. Understanding and humor in situations get much farther than the sweep of the hand making someone’s discomfort a one sided Charity issue. If someone’s discomfort at Holding Hands with a stranger becomes that person’s problem, for example, it is not very charitable either.
If at any time people on both sides said, “Well gee, how about a mass for both of us.” THAT is unity. That is what we need to strive for.

 

[SMHW]

I wonder if perhaps in their haste to state or prove what Truth is, we sometimes get out of order.

Anyone who has taken a math or philosopy class and has had to write proofs knows that the order of the steps of the proof matters. I believe this is the same for the Truths of our Faith. Charity is just as much a ‘step’ of ‘proof’ of Truth as any other step.

As far as the Liturgy is concerned I think there are many important Truths which we express in our worship. These Truths exist side by side. Some are more important than others but each of us tends to relate to some Truths more than others because of our personality types, backgrounds, and personal tastes. I think sometimes devotion to more important Truths, such as the centrality of the Eucharist to our worship, can cause misunderstandings between those who consider the Eucharist to be so important as to make any other part of the Mass negligable and those who feel natural devotion to aspects of the Mass with lessor importance such as the presence of Christ in our fellow worshipers or the music.

And yes, I am grossly oversimplifying.

 

[netmilsmom]

SMHW:

How about inciting your brethren to anger? Which of these is a bigger offense?

I have to honestly say that if someone is reading posts here and getting angry, that person needs to use his/her time better than spending it here.
We are all just people with opinions. If someone’s opinion is leading you to anger, get out. That should not be what it is about.

 

[fix]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

The pendullum is swinging and that might just happen before we know it.

[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.[32]
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html