On derivative fiction

[Lost_Wanderer]

It really was not. If you intended a broader scope, you should have considered including an example of “derivative fiction” that was not part of a narrow definition. Wikipedia’s article on derivative fiction essentially equates it with my definition, not yours.

Which article are you talking about? Typing the words “derivative fiction” brings forth multiple (and obscure) results just like google. Hence, my point. I would have figured that would be enough to indicate that I’m not being keen on specifics here. (By the way, why aren’t you complaining about the second half of my OP? It certainly has nothing to do with what you’re asking from this thread either. :ehh

Secondly, my examples were thought on the fly, further proving that I don’t care much for those specifics. Going back to the Wikipedia article, it talks mostly of legality and copyright law. I certainly see nothing that dabbles on the artistic side of them. If anything, my examples were meant to point readers in that direction. Again, not being specific and never intended to be.

Which is not even derivative fiction, otherwise all fiction is derivative. Originality is an illusory concept.

That’s kinda my point, just not my only one I want explored on this thread.

This thread is stillborn.

That’s your opinion. Deriving something is just as much a fun thing to do and leaves a lot for discussion. Ever asked yourself, after reading a story, if there was something you would like to take out of it?

I do. Heck, that’s what a lot of authors have been doing. You think there’s nothing to discuss regarding that process? I respectfully disagree.

Finally, there’s still the issue of Christian hatred for pagan derivatives. Your very first post on this thread didn’t even touch upon that. If you really can’t think of anything to add, consider that.

 

[Kamaduck]

I hate to take sides in a debate between Baelor and LW, since you bith seem pretty cool. And if your other posts are any indication, you both tend to be on the argumentative side…

But as far as this thread goes, I didn’t think it was only about direct adaptations. The first half of the OP was about direct adaptations, and the second was about getting ideas from sources other than Europe and Christianity (which sounds less original to me than getting ideas from, say, Native American Myths, because European-themed stuff is already popular). I figured both were up for discussion, and the second half was more interesting to me.

For direct adaptations, the OP specifically mentions movies. It dawned on me that movies contain many more adaptations than other mediums (I’d say at least half are some kind of adaptation). I think that’s because they’re much more expensive to make than other things, and people who invest that much money want to guarantee a profit. It’s much safer to use a story that people already like, so that’s part of why you see so many in movies.

In terms of getting inspiration from a non-European culture, I’d love to see more of it. I think it’s awesome when done well, but when everything is Western it gets boring. That’s probably part of why I like anime- it has some Western themes, but there are also distinctly Japanese themes and settings. I think you pretty much have to get your ideas from somewhere, but I’d love to see more ideas from other places. New spins on old ideas are also a lot of fun, in my experience.

 

[Baelor]

Which article are you talking about? Typing the words “derivative fiction” brings forth multiple (and obscure) results just like google. Hence, my point. I would have figured that would be enough to indicate that I’m not being keen on specifics here…Wikipedia etc.

The article has everything to do with this thread, since the definition there involved copyrighted characters, stories, etc., in addition to obvious retellings (West Side Story of Romeo and Juliet, for example).

That’s kinda my point, just not my only one I want explored on this thread.

What others ones did you want explored? That was the only one mentioned in the OP.

That’s your opinion. Deriving something is just as much a fun thing to do and leaves a lot for discussion. Ever asked yourself, after reading a story, if there was something you would like to take out of it?

Yes. I do that all the time. That does not count as derivative fiction unless the term is so broadly applied that it encompasses all fiction. All fiction derives from something.

I do. Heck, that’s what a lot of authors have been doing. You think there’s nothing to discuss regarding that process? I respectfully disagree.

I never said that. I said that this thread has not gotten off the ground because it is not even clear what its purpose is. First you mention only examples related to the standard conception of derivative fiction. Then you bring up a single issue of non-Christian fiction, which was the referent of “stillborn” because the answer is so obvious. Now you are saying that you want to discuss something completely different that was not mentioned in the OP, and the definition of “derivative literature” is still nowhere to be found.

Finally, there’s still the issue of Christian hatred for pagan derivatives. Your very first post on this thread didn’t even touch upon that. If you really can’t think of anything to add, consider that.

What are pagan derivatives? What does that even mean?

In your next post, please clearly define “derivative” in a way that will enable any reader to apply the metric to an arbitrary piece of work.

 

[Crescentinus]

I hate to take sides in a debate between Baelor and LW, since you bith seem pretty cool. And if your other posts are any indication, you both tend to be on the argumentative side…

But as far as this thread goes, I didn’t think it was only about direct adaptations. The first half of the OP was about direct adaptations, and the second was about getting ideas from sources other than Europe and Christianity (which sounds less original to me than getting ideas from, say, Native American Myths, because European-themed stuff is already popular). I figured both were up for discussion, and the second half was more interesting to me.

For direct adaptations, the OP specifically mentions movies. It dawned on me that movies contain many more adaptations than other mediums (I’d say at least half are some kind of adaptation). I think that’s because they’re much more expensive to make than other things, and people who invest that much money want to guarantee a profit. It’s much safer to use a story that people already like, so that’s part of why you see so many in movies.

In terms of getting inspiration from a non-European culture, I’d love to see more of it. I think it’s awesome when done well, but when everything is Western it gets boring. That’s probably part of why I like anime- it has some Western themes, but there are also distinctly Japanese themes and settings. I think you pretty much have to get your ideas from somewhere, but I’d love to see more ideas from other places. New spins on old ideas are also a lot of fun, in my experience.

I agree with you, as long as it’s not some propaganda piece.

 

[Kamaduck]

I agree with you, as long as it’s not some propaganda piece.

Well, either one can be propaganda. I think it’s just that we’re more familiar with our own propaganda than that of other cultures. Likewise, all cultures also have legitimate narratives to tell.

I feel really weird discussing this with people who aren’t American, because I know almost nothing about other places (minor exception for Japan).

 

[Crescentinus]

Well, either one can be propaganda. I think it’s just that we’re more familiar with our own propaganda than that of other cultures. Likewise, all cultures also have legitimate narratives to tell.

I feel really weird discussing this with people who aren’t American, because I know almost nothing about other places (minor exception for Japan).

I’m talking about films which shove ideologies down people’s throats. To use new settings for those types of movies is hardly excusable.

 

[Kamaduck]

I’m talking about films which shove ideologies down people’s throats. To use new settings for those types of movies is hardly excusable.

Yeah, but not because they used a new setting. Propaganda is simply wrong, irrelevant of the setting. Settings don’t make a terrible story good, but maybe they can make a good story great.

 

[Crescentinus]

Yeah, but not because they used a new setting. Propaganda is simply wrong, irrelevant of the setting. Settings don’t make a terrible story good, but maybe they can make a good story great.

Point well taken.

 

[Samson33]

When I read the title of this I though it was going to be a rant about all the horrible pastiches of characters like Conan and Tarzan.

Most of it is stupid, and won’t be remembered. But just compare any two things and the book is always better:

even the old stuff is bad, I mean I just read the Hound of the Baskervilles and then watched the Basil Rathbone movie and it was just terrible compared to it, almost nothing was the same and like most Sherlock interpretations they dumb down Sherlock Holmes to make him more palatable. Likewise with the Tarzan movies, don’t get me wrong Johnny Weismiller and Basil Rathbone were brilliant, but the movies they stared in were so untrue to the literature.

and don’t get me started on disney movies. I loved them as a kid, but I will never read them again having read Grimm and Anderson and the other source material, the movies are just rubbish compared to what they are based on.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[minion]

I notice a lot of interesting movies lately have been derivative works. Hansel and Gretel. Wizard of Oz. Jack the Giant Killer. All of these are based on older stories that have remain popular until now.

It made me think of all other derivative works of fiction like that game American McGee’s Alice. Though on a more serious note, it had me reflecting on something else.

Am I the only one who notices how some Christians have a sort of venomous hatred for anything that derives outside their picture of Christianity? I’ve seen this behavior in both Protestant fundamentalists and their Catholic counterparts.

I mean look at crackpots like Hislop with the notorious ‘fish hat’ claim. I gotta ask, so what? I mean, it’s like these people are saying you can’t make anything that doesn’t derive itself from Euro-Christian sources (even though much of medieval European art, lore, and even fictional tropes was also derived from paganism).

Well, if you’re not still mad at me from the “Females portrayed in video games” thread (if you remember me, that is), my two cents.

Fundamentalist-Protestant criticism comes from a disdain of anything pagan, or non-Christian, viewing it as evil. And they use this false premise to throw rocks at the Catholic Church, which has “Christianized” pagan culture. Ironically, even the concept of Knights stems from a christianization of the pagan barbarian warriors, whom were re-conceptualized by the Catholic Church with ideals of chivalry.

It’s unfortunate Protestantism fights with Catholicism. If I understand correctly, the Tokugawa Shogunate got sick of the spread of Christianity in Japan, because Catholic-Protestant conflicts were beginning to cause problems for the government, ultimately resulting with a persecution & banning of Christianity (history experts feel free to correct me). What if Japan was Christianized? Christian ninjas? But I suppose only God knows.

It can be tricky at times for Catholics to discern between modernization & idolatry, undermining Catholic beliefs (ex. Santa Muerta veneration), and superstition, which the Church forbids. Some go crazy, like saying you shouldn’t even eat Thai food because it may be made by Buddhists.

The problem comes when someone starts accepting idolatrous or pagan values that directly conflict with Christianity. A poorly catechized child will probably grow to accept things contrary to Catholic Church doctrine if the parents do not take pains to educate them. An extreme solution is to wipe story and myth of pagan belief from the culture, which I think does a lot of harm. It boggles my mind that because of Spanish imperialism, the original Filipino religions prior to Magellan have been effectively wiped from the history books.

I mean geez, I would’ve like to know SOMETHING about my heritage prior to the arrival of Christianity. An “incorrect” Christianization of a culture typically follows with a sort of tyranny, which only encourages people raised in that environment with a disposition to rebel. Christianity (or rather, Catholicism), IS the rebellion against the evil in the world, but when fundamentalists carry out conversion incorrectly, it plants its own seeds for rebellion.

So, yeah, two cents. What was the topic again?

 

[3DOCTORS]

I’m enjoying this thread! Yes, there is kind of a conglomeration of more than one train of thought going on, but they’re connected. I hope my own Post #10 with the link didn’t confuse matters more. Sometimes I’ll read or see or hear something and it’ll stick with me and then it will just seem to connect with new ideas encountered such as those on this thread. Then I just feel compelled to post such a link on a thread!

And isn’t that really what we’re kind of all getting at, in the larger sense - artistic synthesis of ideas into a new, fresh whole? Plus relating it to broader themes of faith and culture? Thinking about all the tropes we’ve encountered in literature, film, etc. and whether they “work” in a given piece or not. And whether that piece is worth doing in the first place. Is it well thought out or just slapped together to make a quick buck?

Also, the cultural aspect gives great food for thought. A given culture may wear out its own stories, but if it appropriates other cultures’ stories in search of fresh material, it had better do them justice. And if there are deep roots to a story (such as in Grimm) a creator of an artistic work (in whatever medium) should know the primary source, rather than just basing her/his work on one of the derived works. It’s like making a xerox of a xerox - each copy loses some clarity. Or like cooking - if you’re going to Taco Bell, don’t kid yourself that you’re going to get “authentic” Mexican food there.

Oh - the Christian outlook thing - I’m a big Harry Potter fan now, but I was reluctant to read the books initially because I was listening to the negative feedback from fundamentalist Christians. And I respect their right not to read Rowling’s work if they aren’t comfortable with it. But to me, most of the big themes in the book were Christian. I’m one of those for whom good vs. evil never gets old as a story theme as long as there is a well-told story.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

And isn’t that really what we’re kind of all getting at, in the larger sense - artistic synthesis of ideas into a new, fresh whole? Plus relating it to broader themes of faith and culture? Thinking about all the tropes we’ve encountered in literature, film, etc. and whether they “work” in a given piece or not. And whether that piece is worth doing in the first place. Is it well thought out or just slapped together to make a quick buck?

These were exactly my thoughts when I made this thread. When you talk about derivatives, my posts basically follows the line where that turns into a discussion of any artistic action involving (what you just called) ‘artistic synthesis.’ Whether I adapt something entirely or just take a piece, this is something we have actually been doing for a long time. (Don’t even get me started on how we don’t even know the exact duration that mankind has been mixing stories, myths, tropes etc.)

See I actually believe this is something that any author should sort of master as a means of intellectual self-defense.

Here’s the interesting part. This is something you can have your accusers consider whether they think you are unoriginal OR unfaithful. Cuz on one hand, purists are all against making new spins while on the other, those want you to be original… can’t stay content. (Isn’t a chronic lack of contentment a little sinful if I may add?)

Add in a dash of religious fanaticism and… you gotta wonder why the whole Christian counter-culture idea remains to be one big joke.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Heard this somewhere, source unknown - “Immature artists copy; mature artists steal.”

If there were a way to find out, I’d bet remixing of stories and images and songs and all kinds of human creative works has been going on since shortly after the beginning of humans creating art/music/literature.

 

[3DOCTORS]

This might be fun - let’s see if we can come up with the most primary tales - something like Gilgamesh or Beowulf, perhaps - that have come down preserved to the present day and from which other plots are derived!

It wouldn’t even have to be that ancient - think of new literary or film genres and what was the “seminal” work that spawned them. For instance, right now I’m getting interested in Steampunk. It goes back to H.G. Wells and Jules Verne, but also to William Gibson and Bruce Sterling’s The Difference Engine, a more recent work.

 

[Viki63]

so what do you guys think of Miyazaki’s Spirited Away? As far as being a movie based on another culture, another religion? I think it’s brilliant, although would probably not want young children to see it until they were well versed in their own faith.
As for an original story, clearly there is only one basic story in the world, the eucatastrophe of Christ’s resurrection, the battle of good against evil and of love against hate, but there are a million ways to tell it.

 

[Samson33]

so what do you guys think of Miyazaki’s Spirited Away? As far as being a movie based on another culture, another religion? I think it’s brilliant, although would probably not want young children to see it until they were well versed in their own faith.
As for an original story, clearly there is only one basic story in the world, the eucatastrophe of Christ’s resurrection, the battle of good against evil and of love against hate, but there are a million ways to tell it.

I thought it was brilliant, I saw it when I was about 11 and I really liked it, be sure to check out the other Miyazaki movies(in my opinion the best one is Nausicaa of the valley of the wind very strong Christian message, even though it was made in an entirely pagan country)

Also If you are interested in Japanese culture, I would check out the movie Departures, it’s about a young celloist who loses his job at the orchestra and becomes a kind of traditional japanese mortrician, It might be R or PG13, but we watched it at church so I think it is okay. Anway most of Japan(like northern european countries) is atheist or at least non-religious and I think that movie was partly made to affirm a belief in the afterlife, anyway its really good, I came close to crying at several parts, it was that good.

 

[Kamaduck]

so what do you guys think of Miyazaki’s Spirited Away? As far as being a movie based on another culture, another religion? I think it’s brilliant, although would probably not want young children to see it until they were well versed in their own faith.
As for an original story, clearly there is only one basic story in the world, the eucatastrophe of Christ’s resurrection, the battle of good against evil and of love against hate, but there are a million ways to tell it.

I prefer his Princess Mononoke, but Spirited Away is certainly a beautiful movie. Anime is obviously a great place to look for non-european inspired fantasy, since it’s from a very different culture.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I prefer his Princess Mononoke, but Spirited Away is certainly a beautiful movie. Anime is obviously a great place to look for non-european inspired fantasy, since it’s from a very different culture.

True - what are some of the “big names” a noob should know?

 

[Kamaduck]

True - what are some of the “big names” a noob should know?

And the floodgates open.

Most of the anime I’ve seen are TV series, not movies. There are a few stories people usually start with, then they check out whichever genres they find interesting.

The most well-respected name in anime is probably the aforementioned Hayao Miyazaki- almost all of his movies are excellent, family-friendly, and imaginative.

The most popular group of stories are the shonen fighter shows made for teenage boys- Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, and other similar shows. They’re fun, but often not deep enough to hold an adult’s interest. After that are shojo romances- Fruits basket, Ouran High School Host Club, etc. They have similar problems because they’re aimed at teenage girls.

Which titles will interest you depends on what kind of stories you already like.

Action- Naruto, other shonen
Hard science fiction- Planetes
Soft science fiction/fantasy- Fullmetal Alchemist, Evangelion
Pure fantasy- Miyazaki movies, then ask LW
Quiet or character-driven- Haibane Renmei
Weird stuff- most anime.

Other people can add stuff, since I haven’t actually seen that many.

Since we’re talking specifically about non-European ideas in stories, does anybody have a good example of that? I think Fruits Basket, for example, shows some very different priorities than western teen romances. There’s a lot more emphasis on family and friends, not just romantic love. There’s also a lot of pondering whether it’s OK to go against one’s family, especially if you’re family doesn’t want what’s best for you. The kids are always worried about doing well in school, even though they don’t technically have to go. I think it paints a more balanced picture of being a teen than western stories do- not a more realistic one, but at least a little more healthy.

 

[Razanir]

There’s a general disdain for the fantasy genre within Born-Again Protestantism.
It goes way beyond Harry Potter or even Final Fantasy!
For instance, some of them are against drawing anything other than the Bible because according to their interpretation of the Bible, drawing something = graven images and idolatry. Really? Good grief! Someone needs to debate with these modern iconoclasts!

And take their money. It has pictures of dead people, therefore it must be sinful! Let us Catholics have it, seeing as some groups (CARM) already think we did away with that commandment

I notice a lot of interesting movies lately have been derivative works. Hansel and Gretel. Wizard of Oz. Jack the Giant Killer. All of these are based on older stories that have remain popular until now.

Oz the Great and Powerful is actually based on some of Baum’s other Oz books. It’s like The Lord of the Rings compared to The Hobbit or a hypothetical Silmarillion movie