On excommunication and abortion polititcs

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DanteAlighieri

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First, let me say that I’m not interested in comments about the “liberal media”. :tsktsk:

I found this article interesting, mostly because of the ignorance of Catholicism displayed by the headline. Isn’t it odd how the average person seems to think that a Pope, angry that his authority has been challenged, vindictively pronounces a sentence of excommunication, rather than that sentence being brought on by the action of the sinner?

It’s like they think we’re still in the Dark Ages – ruled by a tyrant with no understanding of what the world is really like.

Curiouser and curiouser…

Peace,
Dante
 
I agree with Pope. I believe it makes no sense to give the benefits of full church membership to those whose actions in public life are the equivalent of sanctioning murder.

For me, it is not a matter of the neat parsing of public v. private life that many such persons indulge in (although I think that’s hypocritical). I just believe that people in public life should not be exempt from the same consequences that are applied to others who are not public figures. It makes no sense to excommunicate someone who gets an abortion, but not to do the same thing to those persons who make the abortion possible through legislation.

I’m 100% pro-choice, it’s just that I believe the timing of that choice should be earlier, i.e., BEFORE the baby is conceived.

As for “ignorance of Catholicism” ~ that’s pretty widespread, so it shouldn’t be too surprising. In addition, people that are accustomed to rationalizing their own behavior routinely criticize anyone who advocates that certain standards of behavior are essential. People who want to do anything they want, including having sex and then aborting any result of that sex, don’t want to hear that what they are doing might be wrong, so the critique immediately begins of anyone who says it is. It doesn’t have to be the Pope, it could be anyone.
 
I like the “is supported by Church doctrine” part.

Uh, no kidding it is. As if the Pope is going to pull stuff on people that are not supported by Church doctrine!
 
DanteAlighieri said:
First, let me say that I’m not interested in comments about the “liberal media”. :tsktsk:

I found this article interesting, mostly because of the ignorance of Catholicism displayed by the headline. Isn’t it odd how the average person seems to think that a Pope, angry that his authority has been challenged, vindictively pronounces a sentence of excommunication, rather than that sentence being brought on by the action of the sinner?

It’s like they think we’re still in the Dark Ages – ruled by a tyrant with no understanding of what the world is really like.

Curiouser and curiouser…

Peace,
Dante
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Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
 
MelanieAnne said:
I agree with Pope. I believe it makes no sense to **give the benefits of full church membership **to those whose actions in public life are the equivalent of sanctioning murder.
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That’s exactly my point. It’s not a matter of whether someone gives the benefits of full church membership – as though the church were a country club or a gym – the Pope’s statement is that the notion of latae sententiae (that is, self-imposed) excommunication for abortion-enabling politicians is supported by church doctrine. There is no revocation, no “membership review”, no judgements passed. As with schism, one brings the sentence upon oneself by the very nature of one’s action.

It’s a far too common misconception, among Catholics and non-Catholics alike (including myself, at one time), that the Pope “kicks people out of the Church”.

Peace,
Dante
 
I don’t know if the link has changed, but I couldn’t find his comment on excommunication.

Here is a more friendly report from *Catholic World News Brief *
*Fielding questions from reporters during the trip, the Holy Father was asked whether he supported the Mexican bishops who have announced the excommunication of politicians who voted to approve legalization of abortion in Mexico City. The Pontiff replied that he did. *
*“They did nothing new, nothing arbitrary or surprising,” the Pope said of the Mexican bishops. “They simply announced to the public what is stipulated by the law of the Church.” *
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I just wish American Catholic Bishops would get up the courage to publicly excommunicate Pro-Choice politicians.

What are they saying to the average Catholic. They you cannot escape punishment for immoral acts but the powerful can?

Maybe it would be a wake up call for some of them.
 
The pope DOES have the power to formally excommunicate. He didn’t use that power here. He simply noted the principle that formal promotion of abortion incurs and automatic excommunication.

Its a wonderful distinction that we must ALL learn to make. There is no need to single out individuals when we can proclaim principled truth instead. The pope doesn’t formally excommunicate anybody without a thorough investigation and opportunity for the ascused to respond and defend himself. But he DOES hold nothing back when proclaiming universal principles.

We on the forums should learn to make similar distinctions. Judge ideas and general behavior, but refrain from specific application of those judgements towards PEOPLE. They’ll get the message loud and clear without making it a personal attack.
 
I just wish American Catholic Bishops would get up the courage to publicly excommunicate Pro-Choice politicians.
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I think this idea has tremendous prudential value.

For one, it makes clear to all those who walk down the communion isle that you can’t be Catholic and Pro-abortion at the same time.

For two, it would spur some controversy that would allow Catholics a moment to speak.

For three, I think there are millions of protestants who are getting fed up with the wishy-washiness of protestantism. Gay bishops, pro-abortion, pro-divorce. I think a Church that has a clear and consistant stance against these known evils is mighty appealing to them.

Just as when the Boy Scouts of America took a stance against homosexual Scoutmasters, they saw an upswell of support that exceeded the criticism. I think the Catholic Church would benefit greatly by excersizing the virtue of FORTITUDE.
 
manualman said:
The pope DOES have the power to formally excommunicate. He didn’t use that power here. He simply noted the principle that formal promotion of abortion incurs and automatic excommunication.

Its a wonderful distinction that we must ALL learn to make. There is no need to single out individuals when we can proclaim principled truth instead. The pope doesn’t formally excommunicate anybody without a thorough investigation and opportunity for the ascused to respond and defend himself. But he DOES hold nothing back when proclaiming universal principles.

We on the forums should learn to make similar distinctions. Judge ideas and general behavior, but refrain from specific application of those judgements towards PEOPLE. They’ll get the message loud and clear without making it a personal attack.
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They have gottten the message for years, yet still toss their public sins in our faces…now what?
 
Black_Jaque said:
I think this idea has tremendous prudential value.

For one, it makes clear to all those who walk down the communion isle that you can’t be Catholic and Pro-abortion at the same time.

For two, it would spur some controversy that would allow Catholics a moment to speak.

For three, I think there are millions of protestants who are getting fed up with the wishy-washiness of protestantism. Gay bishops, pro-abortion, pro-divorce. I think a Church that has a clear and consistant stance against these known evils is mighty appealing to them.

Why is Pro-choice always called pro-abortion. I believe women should have the choice of an abortion but I think they should choose life. I also believe someone should have the choice to join the KKK but I don’t think they should join.
When God created man and woman He gave them the gift of free will. He said that we are free to choose good or evil but should choose good. That doesn’t make Him pro evil. Sounds to me that God is clearly pro choice.
Just as when the Boy Scouts of America took a stance against homosexual Scoutmasters, they saw an upswell of support that exceeded the criticism. I think the Catholic Church would benefit greatly by excersizing the virtue of FORTITUDE.
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blackiron1 said:
I just wish American Catholic Bishops would get up the courage to publicly excommunicate Pro-Choice politicians.

What are they saying to the average Catholic. They you cannot escape punishment for immoral acts but the powerful can?

Maybe it would be a wake up call for some of them.
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I have seen it noted that we need Mexican immigrants to do the dirty jobs that our citizens won’t do.

Can we get some Mexican Bishops to immigrate?👍
 
The self decision to act in a way that incurs “excommunication” is a “free Choice” that our so called catholic politicians make.

What is excommunication? Excommunication is supposed to be a wake up call for the person. They can then choose to be reconcilled with God and His Church or remain in sin.

When our Bishops and priests fail to prevent reception of the sacraments [Eucharist] then the one suffering excommunication does not percieve the need to be reconciled. And the Church suffers from the “scandal” that the photo op receptions of Eucharist bring upon the faithful.

What message is this sending to the faithful? I know of divirced and remarried catholics who are routinely denied the Eucharist, they are nameless and powerless. The average parishioner would not ‘know’ of any defect in their social condition and receive no mixed message.

Yet the powerful ‘pro-abortion’ politician [Guiliani, Kennedy, Pelisi, Whitney Szwartsnegger, Kerry - I appologize for any mis-spellings of name] can vote pro-abortion, proclaimm their ‘catholicity’ and get a picture in the daily fish wrapper receiving communion. :confused:

Our priests and bishops are not helping these people reach salvation. It is a great dis-service and a deep sadness. Other souls who ar persuaded that this position is acceptable with ouor Christian faith are lost due to this lack of prudential action…
 
The pope is faced with a delicate political decision. On the positive side, excommunication would play well to the base of conservative Catholics. On the minus side, it would not play well with the liberal Catholics.

The worst situation, and a quite serious one, is that he excommunicates the guys and nothing changes and nobody really cares. That would be a huge blow to the prestige of the Church.
 
vern_humphrey said:
It just reinforces my decision not to support Guiliani under any circumstances,
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No way I could ever vote for. If you vote for him you end up having the blood of the innocents on your hands. zn addtion you send the message to the GOP they can turn their back on the unborn.
 
GreenJeans said:
The pope is faced with a delicate political decision. On the positive side, excommunication would play well to the base of conservative Catholics. On the minus side, it would not play well with the liberal Catholics.

The worst situation, and a quite serious one, is that he excommunicates the guys and nothing changes and nobody really cares. That would be a huge blow to the prestige of the Church.
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How about he do what is best for Catholics and ignore the artifical label of conservative and liberal. A pro-abortion Catholic politican should not be receiving communion. period. And for them to do so mocks their faith and does great harm to the Church.
 
GreenJeans said:
The pope is faced with a delicate political decision. On the positive side, excommunication would play well to the base of conservative Catholics. On the minus side, it would not play well with the liberal Catholics.

The worst situation, and a quite serious one, is that he excommunicates the guys and nothing changes and nobody really cares. That would be a huge blow to the prestige of the Church.
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I don’t know from what secular source you have formed your ideas but there aren’t such things as “conservatives Catholics” liberal Catholics" Just those who are faithful to the Church and those who are not. It is not a political issue within the Church it is a matter of faith, God, and murder. I can see how a cynical person in this world would see the Pope as one who is put between a rock and a hard place by so called western and even US politics however a true Catholic knows that the Pope deffinitally does not play politics with this issue as it is one of probably the most spritual significance ever.
 
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