On Forgiveness

[Shiann]

I guess I’m with Lazerlike and Paul on this.

Forgiveness is when the person who wronged us, approaches us, tells us of their sorrow at committing whatever wrong they commited against us, and asks for our forgiveness.

At this point, God obligates us to forgive them 70 times 7, in other words fully and completely.

We can have a calm heart, and be receptive to offering our forgiveness if the case might come up- but we have not “forgiven”.

Forgiveness takes two people and God. Always.

:twocents:

 

[PaulDupre]

catholic-rcia:

Who does Jesus love the most? The repentant or the unrepentant? The sheep or the Goats? Them or us? He forgave us while we were in our sin, He died for us while we were sinners.

Wait a minute. Those are two different things. True, Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, in order to give us the chance to repent. But until we repent, Christ does not forgive us and his atonement has no effect in our lives. He did not forgive us while we were in our sin. Such a notion is unscriptural and unCatholic.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. “There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest. Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.”

God bless,
Paul

 

[TOmNossor]

Paul to CatholicRCIA:

PaulDupre:

But until we repent, Christ does not forgive us and his atonement has no effect in our lives. He did not forgive us while we were in our sin. Such a notion is unscriptural and unCatholic.

CCC982:
There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. “There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest…”
Paul,
This is about what the Bride of Christ will do not about individuals. The Bride has a charism associated with “binding and loosing.” Properly understood, the Church exercises this charism in union with its heavenly exercise. I will not suggest that the rite of reconciliation carried out under proper authority is part of what I am discussion here. Also, I do not believe the Bishop as a judge in Israel is bound in the same way I am advocating here. But those not participating in these specific God-ordained practices (one from RC theology, other from LDS theology) are not even addressed in CCC982. But CCC2842 has much to say.

All,
I truly was expecting everyone to just agree with me with respect to the need Christians have to forgive the unrepentant.
I expected some question as to the need to forget as part of forgiving and thought that would be an interesting discussion.
And then I wanted to explore something that I do not believe Christ has made clear to me in hopes that I might learn some things (this has a lot to do with situations like the one Mom of 5 mentioned).

But we are stuck at the place I thought we would all agree. Does Christ ask us to and provide us the strength to forgive all even the unrepentant. I say yes. I think Catholic-RCIA says yes. It seems clear to me that PaulDupre, Shiann, and Lazerlike42 say no.

I provided 7 scriptures that in context say that we are to extend forgiveness and say nothing about not forgiving the unrepentant. I commented that I cannot see how we can judge if a person is unrepentant even if we thought we should refuse to forgive the unrepentant. I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church, saying forgive (and not clarifying as a systematic statement such as the CCC normally would that the unrepentant are exempted from the forgiveness Catholics are to offer). I quoted St. John Chrysostom (whose feast day was yesterday in case you missed it ) specifically rejecting what Shiann says, “Forgiveness takes two people and God always.”

I have asked that someone explain to me the Bible in a way that allows me to see it saying we may leave the unrepentant unforgiven, even giving a single starting point from which to build Luke 17:3 (of course you must explain my 7 scriptures away somehow too). AND then if you are Catholic, it is important to explain how CCC2842 can be aligned with the view you advocate.
It was not my intent to debate this, but I want to either change your mind or understand from where you are coming. I absolutely do not believe the CCC is so radically clear that I would question ones Catholicism because they do not agree with what I (A MORMON) thinks it says, but I still want to understand how you think about this issue.
After a little longer of trying to see some agreement among the Catholics on this issue, I will either be happy or give up. Then I will move on to “forgetting” AND then my thoughts on “doormat-hood.”

I really was excited when Catholic-RCIA said this would be an interesting discussion. You do not know how much I have been lifted by the wonderful thoughts of Catholics and Catholic theologians past and present over the years. I had hoped this would be a great opportunity do greater things than we normally do on this board. I thought it would be great to focus on your message of last Sunday (forgiveness) because I saw less to have conflict about than my message of last Sunday. Perhaps we must always have conflict or this board would become boring.

Anyway, please show me your thoughts. What the perfect judge chooses to judge by seems to be a separate issue. What does Christ ask us to do through His grace?
Charity, TOm

 

[PaulDupre]

TOm et al,
Here is a link to the Catholic Answer to this question of forgiveness. Please read it and let us know what you think.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp

I want you to know that, although I disagree with your POV, I deeply respect the purity of your intent.
God bless you,
Paul

 

[TOmNossor]

Wow! Thanks!

Here is the most important part of the This Rock article.
This Rock:
Preemptive Forgiveness?

We aren’t obligated to forgive people who do not want us to. This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks that people have regarding the topic. People have seen “unconditional” forgiveness and love hammered so often that they feel obligated to forgive someone even before that person has repented. Sometimes they even tell the unrepentant that they have preemptively forgiven him (much to the impenitent’s annoyance).

This is not what is required of us.

Consider Luke 17:3–4, where Jesus tells us, “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so. Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.

The upshot? If someone isn’t repentant, you don’t have to forgive him.

If you do forgive him anyway, that can be meritorious, provided it doesn’t otherwise have bad effects (e.g., encouraging future bad behavior). But it isn’t required of us that we forgive the person.

This may strike some people as odd. They may have heard unconditional love and forgiveness preached so often that the idea of not indiscriminately forgiving everybody sounds unspiritual to them. They might even ask, “But wouldn’t it be more spiritual to forgive everyone?”

I sympathize with this argument, but there is a two-word rejoinder to it: God doesn’t.

Not everybody is forgiven. Otherwise, we’d all be walking around in a state of grace all the time and have no need of repentance to attain salvation. God doesn’t like people being unforgiven, and he is willing to grant forgiveness to all, but he isn’t willing to force it on people who don’t want it. If people are unrepentant of what they know to be sinful, they are not forgiven.

Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness.

If God doesn’t forgive the unrepentant, and it is not correct to tell people that they need to do so, what is required of us?

Before I came across the St. John Chrysostom passage, I was going to quote This Rock Feb 2000, but as I look at it now Jan Wikelin ends with “We must be WILLING to forgive others, or we condemn ourselves.”

Thank you for the nice words. I guess I disagree with Jimmy Akin and you. If you can convince Catholic-RCIA that he is not asked to forgive the unrepentant, I will concede that though I do not understand this, it seems to be part of Catholic belief in general.

Jimmy Akin starts where I said those who hold this position should start: upon Luke 17:3-4. I personally do not see anyway to arrive at his conclusions with the Bibilcal passages above AND the CCC. And I see it easy to right Luke 17:3-4 with my position, but I think it silly to demand that This Rock does not adequately represent Catholic thought.

I think Jimmy Akin and This Rock is a good place to lean upon and if you do not want to pursue this father, I am fine with that.

I will likely offer some of my prepared thoughts on forgetting and on doormatdom anyway, but I will wait to see what Catholic-RCIA thinks of Jimmy Akin’s article. I can say that were I Catholic I would remain unconvinced (though contemplative), but ever ready to align myself with the magisterium of something more definitive came out.

Charity, TOm

 

[Demosthenes]

My thoughts…

Foregiveness can be viewed as being needed because of our lack of pure or “God’s” love and due to our lack of full or “God’s” knowledge. It might be a good place time to broaden the view of this discussion and look at forgiveness in terms of our soul’s existence over eternity. When we try to dictate our foregiveness based on the actions of others we are in fact entering judgement on that person. Only God can truely know the motivations, short comings and imperfections that we all suffer. I think it a far wiser road to forgive without judgement. God knows the true intentions of the sinner and will ultimately foregive or not forgive. That part of the equation is not our responsibility and with a wrong judgement on our part, could impact our judgement for eternity. In short judging others does not benefit our path to Christ.

Remember, as C.S. Lewis discusses, God commands we love our neighbor, however we do not need to like our neighbor’s actions. Do not confuse foregiveness of the person with acceptance of the action.

I think it far safer to forgive any transgression withoutt judgement. This does not require your acceptence of the action; and by all means try to correct the action or protect yourself from further hurt.

This type of action will lead to Christ and then, Christ can choose the eternal consequenses of the sinner. From an eternal prospective, I think that to forget may be inherent in true and complete foregivenss.

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi TOm,
Please do post your thoughts, regardless of the direction this thread has taken. I always enjoy your way of developing a thesis, though I often disagree with your conclusions.

I would like to call special attention to this part of Jimmy Akins’ article:

If people are unrepentant of what they know to be sinful, they are not forgiven.

This is right in line with the Savior’s prayer on behalf of his apparently unrepentant executioners:

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)

God be with you, TOm!
Paul

 

[catholic-rcia]

“If people are unrepentant of what they know to be sinful, they are not forgiven.

This is right in line with the Savior’s prayer on behalf of his apparently unrepentant executioners:"

Quote: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. “(Luke 23:34)

Only God knows the true state of mind in these things. We can leave these things up to God as we should, but for us mere creatures it is best to forgive as often as we can and let it go and move on. We can also say to ourselves:

**“****Father, help me to forgive him, **for he, the un repentant sinner knows not what he does. Father help this one to become repentant and have a change of heart. I forgive him father, now I will hand it all over to you” ****

My Father committed a sin against my mother many years ago, she in the end could not forgive him and she killed her self as a result. My father begged her for forgiveness, on his hands and knees. She could not do it.

Many years ago I stood with my father and his father while we gazed on her before she was buried. I know what it is to forgive; I also know what it is not to forgive. I can see this image of my father, my grandfather and myself very cleary in my mind. But before I became Catholic there was one thing missing in this image. Now when I close my eyes and remember this room there is a very large crucifix above my mother. I now see this room as my Church, as we as a community stand at the foot of the cross together.

My father has never come to me and told me how sorry he was for these things that happened. Maybe I just don’t remember. But I do know that I love him very much and always pray for him. Forgiveness is one of the most beautiful things that we as Christians have been given. The best example of forgiveness for me is of Christ. If you have a dog in your family and you pay attention to it you can learn a lot about forgiveness. They are probably some of the best teachers that God gave to us when it comes to unconditional forgiveness.

At eight years old I was able to forgive both my Father and my Mother. I loved them then and I love them now. By being able to forgive them, with or without their permission I did not have the same struggle that both my brother and my sister have had to this very day many years later.

What happened to my mother I place in Gods hands, what will happen to my father I place in Gods hands. I am not God! When I forgive I do not place any conditions on the other or expect anything from them, again I leave this up to God, and to the priest who serve Him well. I have found a lot of peace in these things given to me as gifts from God, from Jesus, and their Holy Spirit. During the RCIA it is my calling to pass this peace on to others because life can weigh heavy on all of us at times. Forgiveness and reconciliation is at the center of our faith, the Church, that which is of Christ and is Christ.

 

[catholic-rcia]

I read your post after I posted. I did not need to post as you have said it much clearer than I. God bless you!! and you to Tom.

"My thoughts…Demothenes

Foregiveness can be viewed as being needed because of our lack of pure or “God’s” love and due to our lack of full or “God’s” knowledge. It might be a good place time to broaden the view of this discussion and look at forgiveness in terms of our soul’s existence over eternity. When we try to dictate our foregiveness based on the actions of others we are in fact entering judgement on that person. Only God can truely know the motivations, short comings and imperfections that we all suffer. I think it a far wiser road to forgive without judgement. God knows the true intentions of the sinner and will ultimately foregive or not forgive. That part of the equation is not our responsibility and with a wrong judgement on our part, could impact our judgement for eternity. In short judging others does not benefit our path to Christ.

Remember, as C.S. Lewis discusses, God commands we love our neighbor, however we do not need to like our neighbor’s actions. Do not confuse foregiveness of the person with acceptance of the action.

I think it far safer to forgive any transgression withoutt judgement. This does not require your acceptence of the action; and by all means try to correct the action or protect yourself from further hurt.

This type of action will lead to Christ and then, Christ can choose the eternal consequenses of the sinner. From an eternal prospective, I think that to forget may be inherent in true and complete foregivenss."

 

[PaulDupre]

Catholic-rcia,
I truly feel for you, but what happened to your parents only proves my point. Your father was truly repentent, therefore your mother was commanded to forgive him, but would not. That was wrong.

Had your father not been repentant, your mother would have been under no obligation to forgive him. If she had, after prayerful reflection, been prompted by the Spirit to offer her forgiveness anyway, that would have been a noble thing to do. But under most circumstances, I think it is gravely mistaken to let an evil person off the hook. It only invites further evil and more victims. Just ask any battered woman.

I have dealt with some truly evil people in my life. To these people, if you do not require justice, you are just weak. And weak people make easy victims.

Be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves. (Mt 10:16)
Paul

 

[catholic-rcia]

Then I am a very weak Christian, hopefully I am the weakest of them all. But I doubt that my faith is that strong as to place myself in that position.

Jesus forgave us all and he was crucified. Do you not know that you crucify Christ as well when you sin? That you also take part in His crucifixion. When he forgave his executioners he was forgiving you and I as well. Peter forgave others and he truly loved the children of God, he also seemed to be an easy victim. As you know Peter chose to be crucified upside down.

On the contrary I have never seen weakness in forgiving people, I have seen weakness in myself when I hurt others, and when I fail to forgive others that have hurt me. As to requiring justice I would agree, we are all held accountable for our sins and that is a good thing. But I would not want to desire power in requiring justice other than trusting in Christ and His mercy… In this life I will do my part and I have complete faith in Christ, that He will do His.

God Bless

 

[catholic-rcia]

“For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly” (Romans 5:6).

, “But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

“while we were yet sinners” and “while we were ungodly.”

 

[Tmaque]

If I could just interject here. While I agree with the notion that we’re not obligated to forgive people that “are unrepentant of what they know to be sinful”, we are most certainly obligated to not judge them. We can very rarely objectively know whether or not someone who has offended us, fully comprehends the seriousness of their actions. So, if we should forgive those who “know not what they do”, I think we should probably be trying our best to forgive everyone, whether they are repentant or not. This is because we rarely, really, know their heart. Only God does.

One could argue that Jesus’ executors knew they were doing wrong. While they may not have understood who Jesus truly was, they did know they were killing an innocent man. And, they knew they were being extremely vicious and cruel.

I fail miserably every day in my attempts to be forgiving of others. But, I never want to deceive myself with the thought that my unforgiveness and lack of humility is somehow justified. Even though I find myself judging others every day, I never want to think that it’s somehow necessary or good.

 

[PaulDupre]

Okay, let’s sum up.

According to TOm and catholic-rcia, we must forgive everyone no matter what they’ve done, and in the absence of any repentance or sorrow for their actions. And we must forget about what they’ve done, because “to forgive and not forget is not to forgive”.

According to tmaque, we must also not judge anyone, because we are not God and therefore cannot know anyone’s heart.

Therefore, to be really good Christians, we must let all the murderers out of prison and welcome them into our homes. We must re-hire all the child-molesting teachers and clergy, because we must forgive, forget and not judge. That guy you trusted, who took your money and laughs about it behind your back - he needs another ten grand. Lucky for him you forgot about the last time he ripped you off.

BTW, the local NAMBLA rep wants to meet your son. No judging, now. That would be un-Christian.

 

[PaulDupre]

“For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly” (Romans 5:6).

, “But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

“while we were yet sinners” and “while we were ungodly.”

You are totally misapplying these verses. Yes, Christ DIED for us while we were yet sinners. But that doesn’t mean that His forgiveness is applied to us without our repentance. He died so that repentance would be available to us.

By your interpretation, we don’t need Jesus, we don’t need repentance, we don’t need the Church, because we are already forgiven for everything we will ever do. No one is going to hell because they have all been forgiven, whether they want to be or not.

Besides, St. Paul was writing to people who had already repented.

Please read the Catholic Answers article.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp

 

[Shiann]

Many of the versus that have used as evidence for the perception of forgiveness can just as easily be speaking to or about an individual who is facing a repentent “enemy”.

That is, these verses need not be dealing with a person who has been wronged- facing a situation with an unrepentent foe.

It could just as easily be dealing with a person who has been wronged, as they face their repentant foe.

I still agree with Paul here, there are too many verses that wouldn’t make sense if they were applied from your perspective.

A very real and important part of forgiveness is realization

Realization that what you did to that other person went against God’s commandment.

Realization that what they did to you was very wrong, but no worse than any of the sins that we commit that God forgives us for.

Another very real and important part of forgiveness is Humility.

Humility that comes when you have to admit your wrong to that person and to God.

Humility that comes when you have to bend down and pick your transgressor up in charity and love- even though you might rather kick them.

Another very real and important part of forgiveness is Love.

Love that comes when you offer part of yourself (money, time, support) back to the other person whom you’ve wronged in an attempt to put back that which you’ve removed.

Love that comes when you accept that which is offered as FULL payment for that which they took from you.

When this happens we have the elevated and holy act of forgiveness. If one party is missing in this dance- we cannot have true forgiveness. Nor can we have true forgiveness if one of the parts is lacking or missing. (realization, humility, love)

We have either a repentant person willing to offer his realization, humilty and love to a person who is unwilling to accept it.

Or we have a person who has been wronged who is willing to offer his realization, humility and love to a person unwilling to ask for it.

The faithfull in either situation pray to God for His mercy on them and the other person for the fact that forgiveness is not possible at this time. The faithfull also pray that forgiveness might be possible, and the work very hard toward that end.

What of the person who approaches us with the words of repentance, but we can see they have no humility, or love?
Or when we approach someone with full repentance, but they only speak the words of forgiveness, but show no humility or love?

It is here I believe God gives us the instruction to forgive anyway- as we are unable to judge their hearts in either case. We do the best we can and give our full part in “forgiveness”.

 

[Jerusha]

Excellent discussion. It really addressed an issue in my life (which is the reason why I participate in this forum).

I especially enjoyed

PaulDupreOkay, let’s sum up.

I think part of the problem is one of semantics. One is obligated to “forgive and forget” in the case of the repentant transgressor. One is obligated to not live in bitterness, to protect oneself from further transgressions, to make wise choices between confrontation and ignoring, and to understand “they know not what they do” in the case of the unrepentant transgressor. Those two types of forgiveness are distinctly different.

The perceptions, values, and culture of LDS and people of my particular cultural heritage are so drastically different because of the “communication gap” of the past 155 years, that it becomes very difficult except through “they know not what they do” and attempts to communicate (with those who are more rational about the issues).

Again, I thank you for this discussion.

 

[Tmaque]

PaulDupre:

Okay, let’s sum up.

According to TOm and catholic-rcia, we must forgive everyone no matter what they’ve done, and in the absence of any repentance or sorrow for their actions. And we must forget about what they’ve done, because “to forgive and not forget is not to forgive”.

According to tmaque, we must also not judge anyone, because we are not God and therefore cannot know anyone’s heart.

Therefore, to be really good Christians, we must let all the murderers out of prison and welcome them into our homes. We must re-hire all the child-molesting teachers and clergy, because we must forgive, forget and not judge. That guy you trusted, who took your money and laughs about it behind your back - he needs another ten grand. Lucky for him you forgot about the last time he ripped you off.

BTW, the local NAMBLA rep wants to meet your son. No judging, now. That would be un-Christian.

Paul, with all due respect you are confusing forgiveness with not protecting yourself. Forgiving someone for stealing from you doesn’t obligate you to let him do it again. I could forgive my wife for committing adultery but it doesn’t mean I would have to keep trusting her, even if that meant I could no longer live with her. Someone who does wrong must still face the consequences of their actions, whether that be spending time in jail, or feeling the emotional pain of living with a spouse that no longer trusts them. In addition, we, as individuals, and society in general, have the right to protect ourselves from those who wish to harm us.

What, I believe, God calls us to do in this regard is to not hold a grudge against a person for his wrongdoing. That’s it. We can protect ourselves, and we can support the necessary punishments that society has deemed appropriate for a given crime.

 

[TOmNossor]

PaulDupre:

According to TOm and catholic-rcia, we must forgive everyone no matter what they’ve done, and in the absence of any repentance or sorrow for their actions. And we must forget about what they’ve done, because “to forgive and not forget is not to forgive”.

According to tmaque, we must also not judge anyone, because we are not God and therefore cannot know anyone’s heart.

Therefore, to be really good Christians, we must let all the murderers out of prison and welcome them into our homes. We must re-hire all the child-molesting teachers and clergy, because we must forgive, forget and not judge. That guy you trusted, who took your money and laughs about it behind your back - he needs another ten grand. Lucky for him you forgot about the last time he ripped you off.

Demosthenes and I are the only ones who have commented on “forgetting.” I have always expected that we will need to understand what “forgetting” has to do with “forgiving” as we move on.

Again, there are ways to forgive and “forget” without being a doormat (Demosthenes offered an idea) this is really where I want to go (and I am patient).

PaulDupre:

BTW, the local NAMBLA rep wants to meet your son. No judging, now. That would be un-Christian.

I am not perfect because I am a Christian, I am a Christian because I am not perfect.

It is more Christian to admit our hypocrisy than to deny what being a Christian is. I am unChristian everyday. I proclaim things that I fail to do regularly.

cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

Refusal to be a doormat because it doesn’t seem wise and prudent even thought the “anti-doormat group” seems to suggest God is calling for doormatdom with the scriptures and quotes the “forgive the unrepentant” group offers, is quite dangerous in my opinion.

It is not Christian to argue that Christ calls for us to do ABC but it is unpractical to do ABC so therefore we will not and instead we will do XYZ. Now it may be impossible to do ABC for mere mortals, but with God everything is possible.

I offered the opportunity to rest on the educated opinion of Jimmy Akin, but nobody has said they want to do this. I have asked that the scriptures and the CCC be aligned with the position being advocated, but I have not seen this done or attempted.

I think the single verse, Luke 17:3-4 is not something that can be used to build a theology in the absence of the rest of the Bible and the CCC. And even if it was how could one judge who is and who is not repentant.

We seem to still be addressing these issues, so I do not want to jump to the “agree to disagree” stage just yet.

I respond to your doormatdom post with:

1. If God says be a doormat, then a doormat I must be.

And

1. Forgiving the unrepentant does not necessarily equate to being a doormat.

If you cannot show that God doesn’t ask us to forgive the unrepentant then your doormatdom concerns do not matter. If we accept the concept of forgiving the unrepentant then we can work on doormatdom. One response is that forgiving the unrepentant results in doormatdom and I am too weak to walk this path. I will lean on Christ in all that I do, but I may not be rich enough just yet.

Before Peter became rich enough in Christ he denied Him three times. When he was radically rich he asked that his crucifixion be upside down so that he could emphasize that Christ was above him and gave him strength. These actions show a change in his Christian richness.

However, I doubt Peter ever would have defended the correctness of denying Christ three times. If all we can conclude is that forgiving the unrepentant surely leads to doormatdom, then let us not defend the correctness of not forgiving the unrepentant just because we are not rich enough to choose to be doormats.

I readily admit my poverty, but one of the first steps to richness in Christ is seeing things as they truly are.

Charity, TOm