On Forgiveness

[catholic-rcia]

Your summary below is way off course. Not even close. But I forgive you, really.

God Bless

"Okay, let’s sum up.

According to TOm and catholic-rcia, we must forgive everyone no matter what they’ve done, and in the absence of any repentance or sorrow for their actions. And we must forget about what they’ve done, because “to forgive and not forget is not to forgive”.

According to tmaque, we must also not judge anyone, because we are not God and therefore cannot know anyone’s heart.

Therefore, to be really good Christians, we must let all the murderers out of prison and welcome them into our homes. We must re-hire all the child-molesting teachers and clergy, because we must forgive, forget and not judge. That guy you trusted, who took your money and laughs about it behind your back - he needs another ten grand. Lucky for him you forgot about the last time he ripped you off.

BTW, the local NAMBLA rep wants to meet your son. No judging, now. That would be un-Christian."

 

[catholic-rcia]

TMAQUE
I see this as well, cleary. This has helped me look at those who have hurt me in the way that God looks at all of us. I hope those that I have hurt can understand what you have written as well.

God Bless

"Paul, with all due respect you are confusing forgiveness with not protecting yourself. Forgiving someone for stealing from you doesn’t obligate you to let him do it again. I could forgive my wife for committing adultery but it doesn’t mean I would have to keep trusting her, even if that meant I could no longer live with her. Someone who does wrong must still face the consequences of their actions, whether that be spending time in jail, or feeling the emotional pain of living with a spouse that no longer trusts them. In addition, we, as individuals, and society in general, have the right to protect ourselves from those who wish to harm us.

What, I believe, God calls us to do in this regard is to not hold a grudge against a person for his wrongdoing. That’s it. We can protect ourselves, and we can support the necessary punishments that society has deemed appropriate for a given crime."

 

[catholic-rcia]

**Tonight as we went over the reading for Sunday I posed the question. What do you all think about forgiving an un-repentant sinner? **

---

The best thing I heard was, “do we need to wait to forgive another until they repent?” We all came to the conclusion that we would all be pretty mean, lonely and bitter if we waited for that. I thought that was funny, but so true. The readings for this Sunday really hit home when it comes to forgiveness. I always think about the thief on the cross who was forgiven shortly before he died. I wonder how many people he hurt along the way, people who were not able to forgive him, who did not know where he was or where he was going. Here he is somewhere in their distance being forgiven for hurting them all, and they don’t even know it.

---

Here are Sundays readings for the Mass. I love the way the first reading connects with the Gospel reading

Reading I
Is 55:6-9

Seek the LORD while he may be found,
call him while he is near.
Let the scoundrel forsake his way,
and the wicked his thoughts;
let him turn to the LORD for mercy;
to our God, who is generous in forgiving.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
As high as the heavens are above the earth,
so high are my ways above your ways
and my thoughts above your thoughts.

Reading II
Rom 1:20c-24, 27a

Brothers and sisters:
Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death.
For to me life is Christ, and death is gain.
If I go on living in the flesh,
that means fruitful labor for me.
And I do not know which I shall choose.
I am caught between the two.
I long to depart this life and be with Christ,
for that is far better.
Yet that I remain in the flesh
is more necessary for your benefit.

Only, conduct yourselves in a way worthy of the gospel of Christ.

Gospel
Mt 20:1-16a

Jesus told his disciples this parable:
“The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner
who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard.
After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage,
he sent them into his vineyard.
Going out about nine o’clock,
the landowner saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard,
and I will give you what is just.’
So they went off.
And he went out again around noon,
and around three o’clock, and did likewise.
Going out about five o’clock,
the landowner found others standing around, and said to them,
‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’
They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’
He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’
When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman,
‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay,
beginning with the last and ending with the first.’
When those who had started about five o’clock came,
each received the usual daily wage.
So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more,
but each of them also got the usual wage.
And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying,
‘These last ones worked only one hour,
and you have made them equal to us,
who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’
He said to one of them in reply,
‘My friend, I am not cheating you.
Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage?
Take what is yours and go.
What if I wish to give this last one the same as you?
Or am I not free to do as I wish with my own money?
Are you envious because I am generous?’
Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

 

[Lazerlike42]

It comes down to being forgiving in our hearts. We can’t make an act of forgiveness until a person repents. We an forgive them in our heart the instant they sin against us in the sense that we care about them and hold no ill will against them.

It also comes down to the fact that God, being the author of justice and forgiveness, does not forgive the unrepentant. He continues to love them and will good for them, but in His perfect judgement He chooses not to forgive them until they repent. Who am I to question the judgement of God?

 

[majick275]

I am thinking of the Lord’s Prayer.

…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…

One could take that to mean that Christ will apply forgiveness only to those who forgive. Now this certainly doesn’t preclude calling those we forgive to repentance or protecting ourselves and others from potential harm just that we don’t seek our own personal “pound of flesh” from the sinner. We must pray for the sinner. We must seek blessings for the sinner. We must love the sinner. We must also seek to lift up the sinner by doing our part in convincing them to turn from their sin and embrace God.

This seems to be the easily misunderstood part. Too often we abuse “tough love” and seek to impose “justice” without mercy. We have only the example of Christ in the bible to guide us in this. Look at how he dealt with all types of sinners in various situations.
More importantly, make the distinction between ourselves and him. Look at his advice to us in this. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone… Go and sin no more… Judge not lest ye be judged… None of these says to just let sinners run wild. They tell us not to be hypocrites. They tell us to judge with prudence and mercy. Point out the problems when you are wronged, on an individual basis if possible, through the community if you must. Protect yourself and others if you must take action against the sinner but be as merciful as possible in meting out punishment. The objective being to stop the sin rather than punish the sinner. (jailing a molester to keep children safe is a good thing, torturing them is not)

In summary… I think we must forgive all, repentant or not. what that forgiveness means in practical terms varies by situation and one should be prayerful, seeking Gods guidance in each situation. Sometimes you have to scourge the moneychangers from the temple, but sometimes you can just say go and sin no more.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Does anybody care to answer my objection that forgiving the unrepentant would be to be more meriful than God, which is something we neither can nor ought to be?

Similarly, how an we disobey Jesus who clearly has told us to treat the unrepentant “as a publican,” or St. Paul who tells us to expel the unrepentant from our midst and turn them over to Satan?

 

[Mom_of_5]

Lazerlike42:

Does anybody care to answer my objection that forgiving the unrepentant would be to be more meriful than God, which is something we neither can nor ought to be?

Similarly, how an we disobey Jesus who clearly has told us to treat the unrepentant “as a publican,” or St. Paul who tells us to turn the unrepentant over to Satan?

In the experiences I have had, the offenders did not think they had really done anything wrong in the first place. The idea that everything is theirs for the taking was made quite clear to us. When we suggested that we would forgive them, they scoffed at us. So, we could not forgive someone who does not want to be forgiven or won’t accept forgiveness and sees nothing wrong in their actions. I think you are correct… if the offender does not repent to God, we certainly cannot act above God. We must act mercifully however, praying that the offender surrenders to God and asks for forgiveness. We are “forgiving” in our hearts. By that I mean that we are leaving it all to Jesus, going on with our lives and praying that the offenders will accept God into their lives so that we too can have a good relationship. We must judge actions and leave the soul judging to God.

Love and peace

Mom of 5

 

[TOmNossor]

Lazerlike42:

Does anybody care to answer my objection that forgiving the unrepentant would be to be more meriful than God, which is something we neither can nor ought to be?

Similarly, how an we disobey Jesus who clearly has told us to treat the unrepentant “as a publican,” or St. Paul who tells us to expel the unrepentant from our midst and turn them over to Satan?

I will be happy to respond.

We must be careful not to place ourselves on either a higher or an equal footing with God. Ultimate forgiveness and ultimate judgment are in the hands of God. My understanding of scripture acknowledges the fact that I am far below God.

Luke 6:37 –

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

Applying your reasoning to the section that say, “forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” we get the following idea. Yes, I will forgive so that I may be forgiven; but God does not forgive the unrepentant therefore I will only forgive the repentant.

However, if your logic is applied to the rest of this verse we get things like this.

• I will not judge, but God does in fact judge, so I will only judge like God does.
• I will not condemn, but God does in fact condemn, so I will only condemn like God does.

I suspect we can agree that both of the above ideas are not acceptable. I suggest they are not acceptable because God’s ways are higher than our ways and we must ALWAYS acknowledge this truth.

When you say that we are being more merciful than God when we forgive the unrepentant, you misunderstand what God in fact does. God’s mercy is perfect because His judgment is perfect. If your judgment was perfect; you could judge, condemn, and only forgive the repentant. God is most merciful when he does not forgive the unrepentant, but we are lacking in mercy when we refuse forgiveness to anyone. This is entirely a result of God perfectly seeing the sinner as they are. Through this perfect vision God is more merciful when he withholds forgiveness from the unrepentant, but through our flawed vision we are lacking in even commanded Christian mercy when we refuse forgiveness to those who we perceive are unrepentant.

The above is why the scriptures command us to forgive all, condemn none, and do not judge. These instructions are for us as fallen men, not for God. Properly understood, it is your position that says, “I must make myself equal to God and do as he does.” And it is those of us who say the unrepentant must be forgiven who say, “God asks this of me and I know through Him I can do it. His ways are higher than my ways and I will leave them to Him.”

Your other two objections, I already dealt with (in discussing CCC #982). Paul in conjunction with the Corinthian Church expels the man and turns him over to Satan (1 Cor 5:5). And the church after hearing of a matter (presumably with 2-3 witnesses) may judge that a man should be “treated as a heathen man or publican” (Matt 18:17). I addressed this extensively in post #23. You are pointing to these two passages correct? Both of these passages are integrally linked to the authority present in the Bride of Christ.

I hope that is a response to your concerns. Is there any way you can respond to the scriptures that say, “forgive,” but do not qualify it in any way?

Charity, TOm

 

[Lazerlike42]

You can’t use the passage for judge not.

The word “judge” is a loaded word in the Bible. The english word judge as it appears in the Bible is translated any time any of about 4 or 5 different Greek words show up.

Sometimes the Greek word means judge in the sense that God judges, or in other words judging a person as to whether they go to heaven or hell.

Sometimes the Greek means to discern, as in discerning between a good thing and an evil thing. This is equivalent to going through a mental process of weighing the different factors which would contribute to the good or evilness of X.

Sometimes the word means to to decide, or better put to render a desicion, which is the concluding step of discernment from above. After the process is done, you render a decision that X is good or bad.

Sometimes the word has very, very fine theological meaning concerning the soul.

Sometimes the word refers to God, in the sense that God is the judge.

When Jesus says Judge not that ye not be judged, He is telling us not to judge a person to be in heaven or hell. He doesn’t tell us we can’t discern and decide between good and evil. We can just about judge anything we want so long as we don’t go judging people’s souls (we also must avoid hypocritical judgement). This is why St. Paul tells us to “judge with righteous judgement.”

So applying that logic does not require me to judge and condemn like God does because the meaning of the word judge here is completely different from the sort of judging I do.

 

[Lazerlike42]

It was already posted, but I thought it important to put it back up:
Jimmy Akin:

What Forgiveness Is Not

Of course, what we would really like in getting someone’s forgiveness is for things to be just as if we had never offended him. We’d like things to go back to exactly the way they were.

That may not happen. Even if someone’s ill feelings for us go away, prudence may dictate that he will not treat us in exactly the same way. This is particularly the case if we have broken trust with him.

Consider the extremes we mentioned earlier: If someone is a terrorist or a child molester then—no matter how penitent he may be—he simply cannot be treated as if he had never committed his crimes.

Most of us have committed offenses nowhere near that bad, but the principle still holds. We sense it in our interactions with others. If someone has violated our trust, we may be able to let go of our anger, but that doesn’t mean that we’re going to put our trust in him again. Our trust will have to be earned.

Forgiveness thus does not mean treating someone as if they had never sinned. That would require us to let go of our reason as well as our anger.

The Church acknowledges this principle. In his encyclical Dives in Misericordia, John Paul II notes that the “requirement of forgiveness does not cancel out the objective requirements of justice. . . . In no passage of the gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence toward evil, toward scandals, toward injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness” (DM 14).

Preemptive Forgiveness?

We aren’t obligated to forgive people who do not want us to. This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks that people have regarding the topic. People have seen “unconditional” forgiveness and love hammered so often that they feel obligated to forgive someone even before that person has repented. Sometimes they even tell the unrepentant that they have preemptively forgiven him (much to the impenitent’s annoyance).

This is not what is required of us.

Consider Luke 17:3–4, where Jesus tells us, “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so. Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.

The upshot? If someone isn’t repentant, you don’t have to forgive him.

If you do forgive him anyway, that can be meritorious, provided it doesn’t otherwise have bad effects (e.g., encouraging future bad behavior). But it isn’t required of us that we forgive the person.

This may strike some people as odd. They may have heard unconditional love and forgiveness preached so often that the idea of not indiscriminately forgiving everybody sounds unspiritual to them. They might even ask, “But wouldn’t it be more spiritual to forgive everyone?”

I sympathize with this argument, but there is a two-word rejoinder to it: God doesn’t.

Not everybody is forgiven. Otherwise, we’d all be walking around in a state of grace all the time and have no need of repentance to attain salvation. God doesn’t like people being unforgiven, and he is willing to grant forgiveness to all, but he isn’t willing to force it on people who don’t want it. If people are unrepentant of what they know to be sinful, they are not forgiven.

Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness.

If God doesn’t forgive the unrepentant, and it is not correct to tell people that they need to do so, what is required of us?

continued

 

[Lazerlike42]

more from Jimmy:

What Forgiveness Is

Jesus calls us to be like God in the showing of mercy “that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 5:45). So how does God forgive?

Scripture tells us that he “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4) and the he is “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).

We should have the same attitude. We should will the good of every soul, even the most evil ones. No matter who they are or what they’ve done, we need to will their ultimate good, which is salvation through repentance.

What if they don’t repent?

One may hope that they were not culpable for their actions and so can be saved, that they were affected by mental disorder, intense pressure, ignorance, indoctrination, or something that affected their judgment so that they weren’t responsible for their actions at the time they committed them.

But what if they were?

We may hope that they are brought around to repentance. In fact, we ought to hope this even for those who weren’t responsible for their actions. But to be brought to repentance often requires suffering the consequences of one’s sins.

This is where righteous anger comes in. It is often said that anger is a desire for vengeance (cf. ST II-II:158:1). This puts it a little more harshly than many today would want to say it, but anger does involve a desire that the offending person experience the consequences of his sins. Without this desire, the feeling would be something less than anger, such as simple frustration.

Anger is righteous—in keeping with justice—if it is still fundamentally directed toward the good. Thus one may wish that a person experience the consequences of his offenses to sufficiently understand how he has hurt others, and teach him to not commit them in the future.

However, “if he desires the punishment of one who has not deserved it, or beyond his deserts, or again contrary to the order prescribed by law, or not for the due end—namely the maintaining of justice and the correction of faults—then the desire of anger will be sinful” (ibid., 2).

It is so easy for us in our fallen state to slip into sinful anger that Scripture repeatedly warns us against it, but anger serves a fundamental purpose.

If a person with whom we are angry repents, then the obligation to forgive kicks in. This means that we must be willing to set aside our anger because he no longer deserves it. We may still feel it for a time, and it can even be advisable to let him know this in order to underscore the lesson he needs to have learned. But we do need to manage our emotions so that we let the anger go and, to the best of our ability, encourage it to fade.

And what if a person doesn’t repent when all is said and done?

At some point we need to let our feeling of anger fade, not for his sake but for ours. It isn’t good for us to stay angry, and it poses temptations to sin. Ultimately, we have to let go of the feeling of anger and move on with life. Frequently we have to do so even when a person has not repented.

But for the person himself, what should we hope? With regret, we recognize that it is appropriate that he gets what he chose, even if that was hell. This is, after all, the attitude taken by God toward those who choose death rather than life.

 

[Tmaque]

Lazerlike42:

It comes down to being forgiving in our hearts. We can’t make an act of forgiveness until a person repents. We an forgive them in our heart the instant they sin against us in the sense that we care about them and hold no ill will against them.

It also comes down to the fact that God, being the author of justice and forgiveness, does not forgive the unrepentant. He continues to love them and will good for them, but in His perfect judgement He chooses not to forgive them until they repent. Who am I to question the judgement of God?

The problem is, if you withhold forgiveness because you think someone is unrepentant, then you are guilty of judging that person. God certainly forgives those who sin when they do it not understanding the nature of their acts(as evidenced on the cross).
Who are we to decide whether or not a person is fully aware of the nature and depth of their sin? That’s a chance I would rather not take. I believe, we as Christians are obligated, to at least make the attempt to not hold grudges against other people for the evil they may have done. I don’t think we can say “I’m not going to forgive the unrepentant because God doesn’t.”, because, we’re not God.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Tmaque:

The problem is, if you withhold forgiveness because you think someone is unrepentant, then you are guilty of judging that person. God certainly forgives those who sin when they do it not understanding the nature of their acts(as evidenced on the cross).
Who are we to decide whether or not a person is fully aware of the nature and depth of their sin? That’s a chance I would rather not take. I believe, we as Christians are obligated, to at least make the attempt to not hold grudges against other people for the evil they may have done. I don’t think we can say “I’m not going to forgive the unrepentant because God doesn’t.”, because, we’re not God.

Read my post a few down on judging. Far too many people make the mistake of thinking we can never judge anyone about anything, which is simply not true. In fact, the Scriptures directly tell us to judge people on plenty of occasions. They directly tell us to judge people in a lot of ways, including that we need to not forgive the unrepentant. How many Scripture passages does it take? It should only take one! One is plenty for me!

The fact is that if we go around forgiving the unrepentent, we do them a LOT more harm than good. One of the very reasons Scripture commands us not to forgive the unrepentant is that if we do, they’re gonna think they can go around wronging people. They’re gonna hurt more people, and ultimately they’re gonna end up in hell themselves. We can’t do that. The ONLY kind of judging we cannot do are hypocritical judgement and judging the final state of a person’s soul. Every other kind of judgement we are CALLED to do.

In his ENCYCLICAL (i.e., the Magesterium), John Paull II wrote that the “requirement of forgiveness does not cancel out the objective requirements of justice. . . . In no passage of the gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence toward evil, toward scandals, toward injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness.”

Note what John Paul is saying. He’s not simply saying that a person must be repentant for us to forgive them. He’s saying that they have to make up for what they did! That’s asking a lot more than I am. Now what does making up for it mean? Well for most wrongs a simple “I’m sorry” serves as a reparation.

I have gotten my position from Jesus, St. Paul, Jimmy Akin, and John Paull II. What more can I do?

In fact, I can say, and I think we all can say, from experience that if a person is not aware of the depth of their sin it becomes pretty apparent pretty quickly, or at least it starts to seem like that could be the case. I am NOT saying we all need to withold our forgiveness until everyone comes to us and says “Gee I’m sorry I wronged you.” How I envision it is this: My friend wrongs me. I go to her and say, “Gee you know you hurt my feelings when you did this.” If she says, “Oh I’m sorry,” or, “oh I didn’t realize that,” or something, then I say, “It’s ok I forgive you.” If, on the other hand, she says, “I don’t care,” or, “Don’t be a baby,” or, “I never did that,” then I probably won’t forgive her. Look people wrong us all day long as we just casually go through our day. I’m not saying we have some unforgiving attitude toward people. If some guy cuts me off in traffic, well I forgive him sure. If my friend says something mean to me kindof offhand while we’re talking, and maybe she doesn’t realize she hurt me, well of course I just sortof forgive her and I probably don’t even bring it up. I just say to myself, I forgive her, and that’s that. But if someone does something… I guess big to you, that’s what I’m talking about that you can’t just forgive.

Sortof how God is. If someone “venially” sins against me and does something small, well I forgive them. If someone “mortally” sins against me and does something bigger, well then they need to show repentence.

If a person punches me, well yeah they need to show repentence. If someone tells a joke about me, well then yeah I’ll probably just forgive them unless it’s some weird circumstance.

 

[TOmNossor]

Lazerlike42:

You can’t use the passage for judge not.

The word “judge” is a loaded word in the Bible. The english word judge as it appears in the Bible is translated any time any of about 4 or 5 different Greek words show up.

Sometimes the Greek word means judge in the sense that God judges, or in other words judging a person as to whether they go to heaven or hell.
…
When Jesus says Judge not that ye not be judged, He is telling us not to judge a person to be in heaven or hell. He doesn’t tell us we can’t discern and decide between good and evil. We can just about judge anything we want so long as we don’t go judging people’s souls (we also must avoid hypocritical judgement). This is why St. Paul tells us to “judge with righteous judgement.”

Here goes:

All the Greek words I will mention below are transliterated. I have yet to attempt to post Greek characters on Catholic Answers.

“Krites” are judges or ones who pass judgement. This word derives from “Krino”

“Dikastes” are judges, umpires or arbitrators. This word derives from “Dike” which is linked to customs/laws. It is only used in Luke 12:14, Acts 7:27, and Acts 7:35. There seems to be very human connotations here.

“Anakrino” is to “examine or judge.” It is derived from “Krino” (and “Ana” which is among)

“Diakrino” is to “discriminate, prefer, give a judgement.” It is derived from “Krino” (and “Dia” which is “through.”)

(there are at least two other words that derive from “Krino” that are translated simply into “judge,” but there root is definitely still “Krino”

And as you might expect “Krino” is the word for “Judge” used in Luke 6:37. It is far and away the most common word translated as “Judge” in the New Testament. And with the exception of “Dikastes” every use of “Judge” is either “Krino” or a derivative of “Krino.”

One of the more interesting rapid fire uses of “Krino” occurs in John 8:15-16

“Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.”

The word “Krino” is used all three times. The only difference in the above uses is that the first two are in the “Indicative” mood and are thus a simple statement of fact, but the last is in the “subjunctive” mood. This indicates “possibility and potentiality.”

In Matthew 19:28 the twelve apostles sit upon 12 thrones of glory and “Krino” the twelve tribes of Israel (Luke 22:30 too).

John 3:17 and 3:18 KJV translate “Krino” into condemn.

At BEST I am a neophyte when it comes to Biblical Greek, but I understand enough to say that your assertion that, “The English word judge as it appears in the Bible is translated any time any of about 4 or 5 different Greek words show up,” has no bearing on the issue at hand. Men may “Krino” in a temporal sense, but Luke 6:37 is saying what I claim it is saying. The use of Luke 6:37 to dismantle your “God does not forgive the unrepentant,” is not weakened by translation problems.

Charity, TOm

 

[Lazerlike42]

I know what the Greek says and I’ve done the research as part of a greater study on the matter of judgement. I was trying to reconcile the idea of Jesus saying to judge not with other passages instructing us to judge. I think it does play a role, particularly given the use of the word “Krino” within the context of hypocrisy that Luke 6 has. The word krino is rather general, and so it’s really best to determine its meaning based on the context. Here the context is that we ought not to judge hypocritically. The passage in John 8 is just far to general to take much meaning from relevant to judgement, which is why few Bible commentaries address the issue as part of the comments on that passage. The overall point there is for Jesus to give testimony to the truth of His claims.

Given the fact that we are having interpretation difficulties, I would say that we have to go to the infallible interpreter of our faith, the Magesterium, in which it says,

"In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness."

 

[Tmaque]

Lazer,

Please square your philisophy on forgiveness with Christ’s exhortations in Luke Chapter 6:

27
But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
29
To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic.
30
Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32
For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.
33
And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.
34
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount.
35
But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
36
Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful.
37
13 "Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

This is what we as Christians strive for despite the fact that it’s totally out of reach for most of us. I don’t see how Christ’s words are compatible with your philosophy(or Mr. Akin’s). I could never love my enemies and do good to those who hate me, all the while holding contempt for them in my heart. Isn’t a prerequisite for Christ’s request to “love our enemies” forgiveness? Maybe I’m confused. Please explain how your belief is compatible with this scripture .

 

[TOmNossor]

Lazerlike42:

One of the very reasons Scripture commands us not to forgive the unrepentant

You asked if anyone would respond to your suggestion that to forgive the unrepentant was to be more merciful than God. I did.

You put forth something about the translation of Greek and I addressed that.

I do not think a Catholic can go far astray leaning up “This Rock” and Jimmy Akin so if this is what you choose to do then that is fine.

But, your above statement is no where evident in scripture and you should not say that it is. Luke 17:3-4 is your best bet, but actually it only says “forgive the repentant, regularly and repeatedly.”

Please if you want, lean upon James Akin, but do not claim that Scripture commands something that you are not going to make an effort to demonstrate. I quoted 7 passages that say, “forgive all” (generally, unless you want to be unforgiven). I have not seen anyone address these passages, but I brought up Luke 17:3-4 and addressed it.

Lazerlike42:

Given the fact that we are having interpretation difficulties

I am suggesting that you have not dealt with the “forgive all” passages offered, but the passages that you offer have been addressed.

Lazerlike42:

In his ENCYCLICAL (i.e., the Magesterium), John Paull II wrote that the “requirement of forgiveness does not cancel out the objective requirements of justice. . . . In no passage of the gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence toward evil, toward scandals, toward injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness.”

AND

Lazerlike42:

I would say that we have to go to the infallible interpreter of our faith, the Magesterium, in which it says,

"In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness."

This is from Dives in Misericordia and it is GREAT, but it is about the duty of the CHURCH, the BRIDE OF CHRIST. It is not about the individual duty of the Christian. Here are the headers for this section.
Dives in Misericordia:
VII. THE MERCY OF GOD IN THE MISSION OF THE CHURCH

1. The Church Professes the Mercy of God and Proclaims It
2. The Church Seeks To Put Mercy into Practice

(your quoted section here)

I am quite convinced that this passage has special significance only for the BRIDE OF CHRIST, but there is certainly some ambiguity. You may judge for yourself: Dives in Misericordia

Thoughts?

Charity, TOm

 

[Robert_in_SD]

**CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

V. “AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES, AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US” **

**And forgive us our trespasses . . . **

2839 With bold confidence, we began praying to our Father. In begging him that his name be hallowed, we were in fact asking him that we ourselves might be always made more holy. But though we are clothed with the baptismal garment, we do not cease to sin, to turn away from God. Now, in this new petition, we return to him like the prodigal son and, like the tax collector, recognize that we are sinners before him.133 Our petition begins with a “confession” of our wretchedness and his mercy. Our hope is firm because, in his Son, "we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."134 We find the efficacious and undoubted sign of his forgiveness in the sacraments of his Church.135

2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see.136 In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace.

2841 This petition is so important that it is the only one to which the Lord returns and which he develops explicitly in the Sermon on the Mount.137 This crucial requirement of the covenant mystery is impossible for man. But "with God all things are possible."138

**. . . as we forgive those who trespass against us **

2842 This “as” is not unique in Jesus’ teaching: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful”; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."139 It is impossible to keep the Lord’s commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make “ours” the same mind that was in Christ Jesus.140 Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves “forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave” us.141

2843 Thus the Lord’s words on forgiveness, the love that loves to the end,142 become a living reality. The parable of the merciless servant, which crowns the Lord’s teaching on ecclesial communion, ends with these words: "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."143 It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.

2844 Christian prayer extends to the forgiveness of enemies,144 transfiguring the disciple by configuring him to his Master. Forgiveness is a high-point of Christian prayer; only hearts attuned to God’s compassion can receive the gift of prayer. Forgiveness also bears witness that, in our world, love is stronger than sin. The martyrs of yesterday and today bear this witness to Jesus. Forgiveness is the fundamental condition of the reconciliation of the children of God with their Father and of men with one another.145

2845 There is no limit or measure to this essentially divine forgiveness,146 whether one speaks of “sins” as in Luke (11:4), “debts” as in Matthew (6:12). We are always debtors: "Owe no one anything, except to love one another."147 The communion of the Holy Trinity is the source and criterion of truth in every relationship. It is lived out in prayer, above all in the Eucharist.148

God does not accept the sacrifice of a sower of disunion, but commands that he depart from the altar so that he may first be reconciled with his brother. For God can be appeased only by prayers that make peace. To God, the better offering is peace, brotherly concord, and a people made one in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.149

133 Cf. Lk 15:11-32; 18:13.
134 Col 1:14; Eph 1:7.
135 Cf. Mt 26:28; 20:23.
136 Cf. 1 Jn 4:20.
137 Cf. Mt 6:14-15; 5:23-24; Mk 11:25.
138 Mt 19:26.
139 Mt 5:48; Lk 6:36; Jn 13:34.
140 Cf. Gal 5:25; Phil 2:1,5.
141 Eph 4:32.
142 Cf. Jn 13:1.
143 Cf. Mt 18:23-35.
144 Cf. Mt 5:43-44.
145 Cf. 2 Cor 5:18-21; John Paul II, DM 14.
146 Cf. Mt 18:21-22; Lk 17:3-4.
147 Rom 13:8.
148 Cf. Mt 5:23-24; 1 Jn 3:19-24.
149 St. Cyprian, De Dom. orat. 23L 4,535-536; cf. Mt 5:24

(Continued on next post.)

 

[Shiann]

Tmaque:

Lazer,

Please square your philisophy on forgiveness with Christ’s exhortations in Luke Chapter 6:

27
But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
29
To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic.
30
Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32
For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.
33
And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.
34
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount.
35
But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
36
Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful.
37
13 "Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

This is what we as Christians strive for despite the fact that it’s totally out of reach for most of us. I don’t see how Christ’s words are compatible with your philosophy(or Mr. Akin’s). I could never love my enemies and do good to those who hate me, all the while holding contempt for them in my heart. Isn’t a prerequisite for Christ’s request to “love our enemies” forgiveness? Maybe I’m confused. Please explain how your belief is compatible with this scripture .

All the things you speak of here are mercy and charitability to all our fellow man- not specifically forgiveness.

We are called to be merciful and charitable to everyone- even our enemies- but that is NOT the same as forgiveness.

In fact, I submit that we should pray harder and be more charitable to those who wrong us- who have NOT approached us for forgiveness.

You can BE WILLING to forgive or even willing to REPENT; without actual forgiveness ever taking place- if the other person is not willing to do their part.

We had a woman who lived with several children on our block. My daughter befriended two of these children. One day- they had a falling out, and my daughter said some very mean things- which the mother overheard. The mother was justifiably angry and sent my daughter home. My daughter wished to apologize to both the child and the mother- and I accompanied her to the woman’s home so my daughter could offer her apology, and ask for forgiveness.

My 8 year old daughter approached the mother- who was still visibly angry and offered a sincere and contrite apology, and asked for her and her child’s forgiveness. The mother proceeded to give my daughter a lecture on christian behavior and rejected her apology! saying her apology wasn’t good enough.

I found the whole situation quite ironic.

The act of forgiveness NEVER TOOK PLACE in regards to this situation. Though my repentent and sincere daughter asked for forgiveness- the christian mother refused.

The point is- without both parties engaging in the act of forgiveness- there is none. There is just preparedness.

My daughter has asked God to forgive her words- AND prays that the mother has a change of heart, and offers forgiveness to the next person who wrongs her and is repentant. We have given the situation to God- as he knows what is true and right. My daughter knows that God forgave her for her actions against Him.

Again, the act of forgiveness did not take place between this mother and my daughter. But neither I nor my daughter harbors ill will to the woman or her children- and my daughter is as ready to repent now as she was the day she tried to apologize if the opportunity arose. My daughters soul is prepared for heaven in this regard- and I have great pride in how she has handled herself.

Forgiveness was ready to happen, but the woman refused it. Therefore there was no forgiveness.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello all:

It seems to me from the above that we are called to be just as forgiving as Christ, who forgave even those who were in the act of crucifying Him - and were unrepentent. I’m sure that while all were ignorant of exactly what they were doing (as Christ says), some were probably quite aware of the fact that they were crucifying an innocent - yet Christ begged His Father to forgive them all - without exception. This is the cross we bear as christians. We must forgive just as God forgives us.

But that does not mean we let the criminals go free. Yes, we can pray that God forgive our enemy’s sins, but even so, a person must face the consequences of that sin - even if it is a sin that has been forgiven him or her. If you are convicted of murder or pedaphilia, you go to jail. The sin may be forgiven, but the punishment for the crime is still required by our society. This is not inconsistent. A boy may throw a rock and break a window - then ask the owner for forgiveness that is given… But even if he is forgiven he must still replace the window he broke. That is not vengeance or retribution, but justice.