On God and Hell

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Jacob18

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So today at mass I broke down, and upon leaving church I had a series of panic attacks. I am really not a dramatic person.

It is the concept that no matter how nice, cuddly and fluffy Catholicism seems to try and make it seem, we are pretty much expected to believe that most people who do not accept Jesus Christ are going to hell.

WHY?

How can God, in His infinite love and mercy allow people to suffer for eternity? I hear the argument that people somehow choose to be seperated from God, but God knows how frail we are! He knows we are tempted and make bad decisions and we have weak hearts. When you confront many Christians who do not go to church, they say they know that it is important, but it is like they really do not understand! They just do not understand how great our God really is, or they are afraid of condemnation from their peers or whatever it may be - but God knows we are frail!

He does not want any of us to perish, we are told, but why does it seem like so many of our peers may, according to our church’s teaching?

I am just so upset. I do not want these beautiful people in my life to suffer at all, especially not for eternity for not following a litany of conditions.

I just do not understand. How? Why? Why, if Christ died for the forgiveness of all of our sins, do these poor souls have to follow a set of conditions before they seem to have any chance, according to the Catholic teaching? Why do they not seem to have any hope?

Please just help me understand. 😦
 
You are at a crossroads in your faith, and you are being subjected to “confusion” by the devil and his demons. That confusion is “Why is GOD not more like man”, where fairness is a dominant trait and everyone has an equal chance, in fact the less equal get multiple chances?

If you begin to place GOD on the same scale with the same limitations as your/our human traits then you will lose your faith. And you do this very honestly, using “fairness” “equality” and as you do not even recognize that this argument cannot even begin without you already making GOD less than HE is, is the reason I inform you that you are under attack by powers and principalities of evil.

If you believe in GOD, then you will know that “belief” does not permit 100% understanding of HIM. HIS ways are so much higher and above our ways, so we walk by “faith” not by “sight”. We will never know or understand GOD - only that which GOD wishes us to know and understand about HIM. But; like Abraham who was asked to sacrifice his own son Isaac, he went forth.

We have all been called to GOD - even those in your family and friends who refuse to accept GOD, at this moment in time. GOD does not want to lose one of us, as we are all precious in HIS sight, but it is not up to GOD, as HE made it up to us. We have to chose HIM - not by sight, not by factual scientific evidence - not by absolute mathematical proofs - by faith. If your family and friends chose at this time not to exercise that faith, then you should pray for them continuously. Be the example of JESUS to them. Invite them to come with you - but at the end of they day - they have to chose.

Do not worry about the outcome of their rejection of GOD - worry instead about the outcome of your confusion and pray that GOD send you the courage to live a good life for them, and that GOD grants you the courage to stay the course, run the race and fight the good fight of faith.
 
I think you are vastly under estimating the mercy of God. You are concerned about your friends and loved ones and rightly so. Then pray for them, have masses said for them. Have faith that God is a lot more merciful than you think He is.
 
If anybody in this life goes to hell, then they go there because they choose to reject that which God has made true to them in their own life journey. That is, they choose wickedness with the full knowledge and consent that what they are doing is wicked and they remain in that state of mind until they die. Catholicism gives us a lot of help in getting to heaven but God is still very much with those who follow other religions or don’t believe at all. God even gives the non-believing person many chances to turn from things that they know deep down is wrong.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with worrying about the salvation of your family members (my family are mostly fallen away Catholics and I worry about the same thing). When you feel yourself starting to worry, simply say a prayer for their conversion to the faith and leave the rest in God’s hands. Praying the divine mercy chaplet is another great thing to do whenever you get the chance! 🙂
 
Im not sure they have to follow “a set of conditions”. I had a similar experience at Mass today, actually. I was thinking, what if I died right now? How could I explain to God that I am so unlike Him, so unlike what He created me to be? Will He forgive me? Will He let me at least go to Purgatory to finally learn to love, because I am failing at it here.

St John Vianney said if you pray, you can be assured of saving your soul. If you don’t pray, you can be just as assured of losing it.

I think its less about the cuddly loving, caring and sharing stuff you mention, and more about our relationship with God. Do we love Him enough to to even attempt a relationship with Him? He does know we are frail. He does know we fall and mess up who we were supposed to become. But He nudges all of us in ways we can’t know sometimes. He nudged you and me at Mass this morning. Those people you care about and worry about, He nudges them too. Maybe they will respond. But if they don’t, even at the hour of death, they will be in danger of losing their souls.

Pray for poor sinners. Pray that they will wake up. Pray that you will stay awake and not fall into despair. Jesus’ agony in the garden is being shared with you. He agonized, as you did today, over the needless loss of so many souls.

We do not know how many are in Hell. We can’t know the hearts of others. All we can do is pray for mercy, for us, and for the whole world, which needs it so much!
 
Jacob18 said:
So today at mass I broke down, and upon leaving church I had a series of panic attacks. I am really not a dramatic person.

It is the concept that no matter how nice, cuddly and fluffy Catholicism seems to try and make it seem, we are pretty much expected to believe that most people who do not accept Jesus Christ are going to hell.

WHY?
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That’s because people can’t get past the bribes/threats training they’ve been given. We all are lab gerbils when we’re young, as they use punishment and reward, or if those aren’t available then threats and bribes (e.g. heaven and hell after you die) to shape our behavior. Most people never actually get past that because it’s in the water supply or something.

Some think this is necessary to form a good conscience. I don’t, because it leads us to exactly the same problems Jesus had to come save us from … a mindset of being justified under the law that St. Paul referred to as “the law of sin and death.”

The fear of hell makes it both harder but more rewarding and deeper, when one is delivered from that fear by accepting the gift of peace that Christ gave us – unconditionally and eternally, not how the world gives. Many spiritual directors say that we have to go through the first phase as the first part of the spiritual journey, but I’m skeptical it’s required. “You must be like this little child,” to me, means the child was never messed up until we taught it to behave like Pavlov’s dog.

I have no need for “hell” because I don’t need motivation to submit myself to the Lord. I’ll leave it up to the theologians and apologists and all them to worry about something I’ll never encounter. That is, the nature of hell. There must be a hell for the whole structure to exist, but I’m not worried about it. I do the best I believe I can and if God condemns me to hell, then frankly I have no use for that God any more than He would hypothetically have for me.

So I agree it is unfortunate we go around pointing fingers and saying, “you’re going to hell because you do this,” or “… because you believe that.” Sorry, I don’t think so. Homey don’t play dat.
God knows we are frail!
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Of course He does. Have you heard the saying (forgot who said it) that “you know you’ve created God in your own image, when it turns out He hates all the same people you do.”
He does not want any of us to perish, we are told, but why does it seem like so many of our peers may, according to our church’s teaching?
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I’m speaking from my heart, and don’t claim to be a theologian. I know what I believe; let them put the official verbosity to it. I love to hear what they have to say, but I take them with a grain of salt. First, people tend to claim this or that is Church teachings and are almost always either wrong or simplified. Second, people can’t get past a certain kind of thinking that lets the bad guy get away unpunished. That’s why Jesus died; so we, all of us sinner, would not endure eternal death, which is the wages of sin. He died so we could go unpunished, but like the ungrateful person who was forgiven a debt and holds it against others, we judge and we accuse each other … and Jesus is the opposite; mercy.

I’d be just about happy if they took “admonish the sinner” off the list of spiritual acts of mercy; it seems we all come in with that one built in.

It’s all about group identification and labels. I’m worthy, are you? Are you type X Christian or type Y? St. Paul spoke strongly about this problem, so it isn’t new.
I am just so upset. I do not want these beautiful people in my life to suffer at all, especially not for eternity for not following a litany of conditions.
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Then just look at them like fellow beautiful flowers. Don’t worry whether we perish tomorrow, today we bloom together and form a kaleidoscope. Do acts of mercy. If you can’t do corporal acts of mercy, you can do spiritual acts of mercy right here over CAF.

Then live in the garden God gave you. It is clear from your language that your mind is telling you there’s a better place you can be that will transform this very world into the kingdom, and I say it’s true. If you follow the teachings of Jesus to the heart, and abandon what everybody else says Jesus says, you’ll do fine I’m sure. And if you go down, then I pray He takes me down with you.
I just do not understand. How? Why? Why, if Christ died for the forgiveness of all of our sins, do these poor souls have to follow a set of conditions before they seem to have any chance, according to the Catholic teaching? Why do they not seem to have any hope?
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Please just help me understand. 😦
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It’s that “dualistic” thinking again. We limit God by giving Him multiple choice questions, and He adds in a new option “none of the above.”

Like the prostitute, do we follow the law or not? Simple question. Jesus refused to give dualistic answer to this dualistic (divisive) question. He said, "whoever is without sin … "

Dualism, the knowledge that Adam and Eve broke out of the tree, cuts the universe into little pieces, so we, Adam’s race, can name the pieces and discuss them. Jesus unites. Adam dis-membered the body of Christ. With the Eucharist we re-member it.

Please don’t fear for other people. I trust the Holy Spirit has everything under control, and that God’s will be done on earth, and really it doesn’t matter what the theologians say once we get into the “zone” aka “kingdom” which is but a (be)attitude away from being fearful, worldly, and clingy.

Alan
 
I don’t know if God condemns people for “honest mistakes”, but if a person goes to hell, then the fact is that they’ve usually spent a life time either ignoring God and / or His warnings.

And we have been warned. I went to my wife’s church yesterday and the quoted passage was from John 15:6 NIV
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
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That’s a warning, but we just go on ignoring it.

In the north of Australia, we have quite a lot of salt water crocodiles. Just about every year someone gets killed.

But there are also signs warning people of the dangers of swimming in the creeks and rivers where the crocodiles live.

If someone ignores the warning, his desire for nothing more than a swim on a hot day could well lead to his own death or serious injury and disfigurement. Just doing his own thing could destroy him.

That may seem like a very unfair punishment for wanting nothing more than a swim. But it’s the reality. Under the murky waters of the northern water courses lurk cold eyed and powerful predators, with unpleasant eating habits.

And the same thing applies to the spiritual war. The warnings are there - it’s up to us whether we heed them or not. We have an enemy intent on our destruction. Under the murky waters of immorality lurk ruthless and cruel predators.
 
And I’m back!

Depending on Hans Urs von Balthasar’s empty hell theory, for the time being.
 
Jacob,

It is God’s mercy that warns us about hell. If there was no choice then there would be no hell but God made us truly free men when he gave us “choice.” The choice is to love or not to love. Choosing love leads to happiness and joy. Choosing hate leads to a hell of our own making.

God does have mercy on our human weakness and nature and that is why He gave mankind a second chance after the fall of Adam and Eve. That is why He suffered the consequences of our sin on the cross. That is why He entered the depths of our misery to give us hope. That is why He offers us forgiveness. He gives us so many chances to avoid hell. God pleads and begs us to choose life and love for our own sake. What else can He do?

Have you ever known someone who keeps choosing something that hurts them (creating their own hell)? You can show them a new way, you can beg and plead with them, you can love them with all your heart, you can help them in every way possible but they cannot change until they choose it.

The second that anyone asks Jesus for help He gives them everything they need but they still have to choose to accept the help. Believe me God does not want anyone to go to hell and He did not create Hell. We did when we chose/choose to live in hate for ourselves, our neighbors, and God.

This is my understanding and I pray all the time for the grace to live in Love. “God is Love and anyone who lives in love, lives in God and God in him.”
 
If there was no hell, then there would be no free will. We would be mindless robots who have no choice but to follow God and reside with Him forever. If God wanted mindless robots, He would have created them. Instead He gave us a choice! What a loving God to give us a choice instead of forcing us into servitude!! He allows us to CHOOSE Him!!

If there was no hell, then Jesus lied to us. And if He lied about hell, how do you know He didn’t lie about preparing a place for us in heaven?

I am so grateful that God gives me a choice intead of forcing me. I go to Him. I choose Him. I do it freely from the depth of my soul.
 
Wanted to add, I had a dream about hell. I was praying at church. I must have dozed off because I was in this foggy gray place. Dense fog. And there was this older woman dressed in eastern european clothing with a tan coat and scarf on her head. She’d take a few steps and say “I’ll never see God.” And the realization that this was her eternity would hit her. And she’d take another few steps and say “I’ll never see God”. And it would hit her.
And it was devastating. I cried for weeks to think that people end up there. And people say “well, it doesn’t sound so bad” but it was horrifying. If only there were devils with pitchforks or a lake of fire to distract her from that horrible existence.

It was just a dream. But still…
 
Gods light seen to the human that kills or hates not being like Jesus is will see Gods glory as if it was fire = hell. KJV 1 John 1;5, God is light. Heb; 12:29; a consuming fire. James 1:17, Father of lights, Hell is the glorified face of God Moses could not look at or become ashes. That light makes the earth to have no more sea making elements melt, and consumes the wicked around the city of God rev, 20. Hell is not a place. No lost no lake of fire. Gods light is good to those that love to do good.

Because people thought hell, and God were separate made people think of God as a god of war. That is what made people think God was on their side when fire was given to whoever to win as they saw it in a battle.
 
Your thinking along the lines of “I do not want these beautiful people in my life to suffer at all,” then you likely have a rather distorted view of other people. You may be idolizing others for your own selfish psychological reasons. I don’t know you, so I can’t say for sure what particular reasons those are, but I do tend to believe that people who live under the delusion that “everyone else is wonderful” are not engaging in such belief for the right reasons. If you only you opened your eyes to the real truth!

There is much good in people, but much evil as well. When Israel’s leaders strayed from God, they did so precisely because they became whores who didn’t see the evil in the ways of other nice-seeming people who they thought were similar to themselves. The frequent Old Testament references to prostitution and whoredom are usually just metaphors, of course, but we disregard them as not applying to ourselves only at our own peril.

As for the part where you say “we are pretty much expected to believe that most people who do not accept Jesus Christ are going to hell,” that’s not something for us to know. Yes, we have teachings like Unam Sanctam (1302), but we also have a Church that explicitly rejects Feeneyism, and that teaches the doctrines of the “invisible church” and the “mystical body of Christ.” You would do well to look all of these things up and reflect upon them a little bit, even if you already done so before.

My own personal speculation is that about 1/3 of the people in this world will face eternal damnation, but as the Church makes clear, nobody really knows the percentage. It is unfortunate how scared modern Church leaders seem to be with talking about eternal damnation, because Jesus sure seems to have talked about it a lot. Good books that treat the subject seriously (and yet with due sensitivity) are rare. In fact, in many years of searching, I have found but a single one: “Hell: The Logic of Damnation,” by Jerry L. Walls.

Just my two cents, I could be wrong…
 
Your friends and others don’t have to go to hell … just pray for that. Do some penance for them.

Our prayers are heard. Be persistant. It is only a good thing that someone be concerned for others when they don’t seem concerned for themselves. Just take a longer term view. It won’t happen in the next hour. And if you really want it then you will keep the prayers comming.

I don’t know of anything that would be more important than helping others to heaven. There are religious orders of men and women in the church which have that as their main goal, to pray and do penance for the salvation of others. Can’t do better than that because that is the very point of Jesus’ whole life.

Now if you think they are all going to hell, then that means that you don’t trust Jesus to hear your prayers. I think you already know that that isn’t good. He said he would be good to your requests if you trust him. So know right now that he will answer your prayer because it is a desire of his own heart that they too be saved. It would please him more if you had more confidence in him. He loves you, so believe. And you must be patient. Your requests may not happen right away, but in his good time.

Remember prayer and penance, trusting him, and patience, will work.

Something to think about.
 
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