On Holy Communion

[Joshua27]

And who is it that believes in him? Those that DO his will. What is is will? “Take and eat, this is my body which will be given for you. Take and drink, this is my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. DO THIS in remembrance of me”.

Even the demons believe in Jesus. It requires more than just belief. It requires DOING his will.

What is God’s will? You say God’s will is to ‘eat his son’s body and drink his blood’. So, as long as YOU do this YOU are doing the will of the Father in Heaven? What about the sick…the poor…the lost, and those who have not yet eaten of Christ?

If you have Christ in you then you are saved…but what about everyone else? No. The will of God is to share God with the rest of the world:

Mark 16:15 - And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

What is the Gospel?

Matthew 4:23 - Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom [of God], and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

Matthew 6:33 - But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

If that’s what you believe “that I am just a man who makes myself to be like God”] then yes, you blaspheme.

But aren’t we one with Christ just like He and our Father are one?

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

John 17:21 - I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one–as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be one in us so that the world will believe you sent me.

John 17:22 - I have given them the [same] glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one.

John 17:23 - I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.

Several times over the Messiah repeated himself in this prayer so there’s no need for interpretation is there? I have given no interpretation of leaned on any understanding that the words spoken by the Messiah.

Try as I might, I cannot make sense out of this statement. If you would like to try and reword it for me I’ll try to answer…

You do not recognize Christ’s words when they’re spoken, Steve?

It isn’t my words that do not make sense to you, Steve, because I haven’t given you my words as answers, but I gave His.

Read John 10:33-38 to find the same words. I thought it fitting to repeat the Messiah’s words for my answer since you accused me of the same blasphemy the Jew accused of the Messiah.

Recall John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

It is precisely your message that is the problem. You deny the reality of the Holy Eucharist and “lean unto your own understanding” rather than accepting the teaching of the Church that Christ founded. You ask me to “believe in you” rather than believe you. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that your statement is just poorly worded and that you don’t have a Messiah complex.

No, Steve. I haven’t denied that there is a reality to Holy Communion…but it’s not carnal [concern “fleshy” or “physical” understanding] but an act of sharing; sharing true life with those who do not have it. It profits no one to give true life to those who have already received it. We we’re told to do what the Messiah was doing at that moment…“sharing His life - true life - with those who did not previously have it”. Now that you have it - true life/ Christ’s everlasting life - in you, you are charged to spread the Kingdom of God.

Luke 17:21 - nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you."

The Kingdom of God is Christ’s everlasting life [His Spirit]; the life giving water.

What many understand today is very much foreign to the words Jesus shared. I share his words verbatim and am accused of leaning on my own understanding…and yet those who have developed canon based on interpretations of those same words are not?

The Son can not do anything without the Father’s authority. This alone should prove that they are not equal.

 

[Lapey]

You are lying when you claim that you do not “bash.”

This is as ripe a denigration as I have seen around here. The comment is ad hominem, and snidely familiar with the “my dear brother” salutation. You are stating that his brain is deficient or impaired from malnourishment.

You are also a blatant hypocrite now after having called me “arrogant” in questioning a practice. And then you call someone brain deficient?

we see you for what you are now

Now thats funny. Our brains need nourishment too!!! Thats all that meant. You may add whatever meaning you like, but I know my intent…sound familiar?

 

[Lapey]

Lapey, I see I need to turn my other cheek. I suggest you read Matt 5 about peacemakers and persecution. I’m done talking to you right now because you seemngly want to argue and twist my words for your own meaning. Peace.

There is no twisting wafer is a wafer is a wafer.

But hey, I’ll conceed that’s not what you meant and back off. Next time choose your words a ittle more thoughtfully.

 

[CMatt25]

There is no twisting wafer is a wafer is a wafer.

But hey, I’ll conceed that’s not what you meant and back off. Next time choose your words a ittle more thoughtfully.

I will choose my words Lapey. I explained to you what I meant. I will not explain again.

 

[larkin31]

Now thats funny. Our brains need nourishment too!!! Thats all that meant. You may add whatever meaning you like, but I know my intent…sound familiar?

Yeah, sounds like a rude hypocrite who is too proud to apologize, and certainly not without another parting jibe.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Just have a question for the Protestants, more specifically those who reject the doctrine of the real presence in the elements of Communion.

Why do you reject it?

I’ve always considered it symbolic because it never occurred to me to believe that the Eucharist contains the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ. Lately however I’ve begun to change my mind concerning it, thinking that maybe it is indeed truly his body and blood.

Any thoughts by anyone?

How to explain and defend the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, This is a good booklet by Father Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham. and it takes you v erse by verse in the Bible and explain it all to you,it is very good reading

 

[Lapey]

Yeah, sounds like a rude hypocrite who is too proud to apologize, and certainly not without another parting jibe.

No parting jab here brother, I am not leaving.

I have been called hypocrite before for standing up for the truth, I’m sure it will happen again. I am sorry you can’t see the fullness of the truth.

 

[larkin31]

No parting jab here brother, I am not leaving.

I have been called hypocrite before for standing up for the truth, I’m sure it will happen again. I am sorry you can’t see the fullness of the truth.

Look up the definition of “hypocrite” again. The term is not dependent on the “truth” of the claim. But rather whether one applies it to oneself in the same honest manner.

I also called you a liar, by the way. I will presume that that label stuck better. When you claimed that you don’t “bash” people, you were lying. And I quoted your “bashing” line as proof of the lie and the hypocrisy.

 

[Lapey]

You are lying when you claim that you do not “bash.”

This is as ripe a denigration as I have seen around here. The comment is ad hominem, and snidely familiar with the “my dear brother” salutation. You are stating that his brain is deficient or impaired from malnourishment.

You are also a blatant hypocrite now after having called me “arrogant” in questioning a practice. And then you call someone brain deficient?

we see you for what you are now

Ok, I was ignoring that comment, but if you insist. Correcting a wrong that was said in these instances, you and Cmatt were not bashing.

You want to call that bashing, so be it, I am a liar.

Sometimes you will say things that rile people up; it’s part of debate. If you don’t want to be called out then don’t make provocative statements like you did, the semi-pagan comment is what I refer here.

On Cmatt’s part the wafer comment from a Catholic is unacceptable no matter what meaning it held because others use it to persecute the belief in the Eucharist; it should never be used, especially by Catholics. If you want to see hate for us who believe what Jesus taught in John 6; google “wafer god” and it will be obvious why I reacted as I did. You may not agree with me but that is why the reaction and the “bashing “as you call it.

I used the brain comment to prove a point, and you took the bait hook line and sinker. I wrote it that way for a reason, and it worked. Words matter, there was no intent on my part to say Cmatt or you or me for that matter were any different. We are all just people trying to move down the road on our journey to Christ and His Father’s Kingdom. I am not any purer than Cmatt, or you since I am Catholic and you are not, we are all pilgrims on a pilgrimage.

If you believe I meant anything else by the brain comment then you are as much a liar as I and my point is well made.

The comment you made about semi-pagan worship was a bad choice of words on your part, because those words directed at the very worship that my Church prescribes means something different than what you wanted to say, so please consider different words.

That’s kind of like saying I am in support of the soldiers but I am against the army, it makes no sense.

Have a God day sir, and I wish you the peace of Christ.

Gary

 

[CMatt25]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramental_bread#Catholic

A host is a portion of bread used for Holy Communion in many Christian churches. In Western Christianity the host is often a thin, round unleavened wafer.

The word ‘host’ is derived from the Latin, hostia, which means ‘sacrificial victim’. The term can be used to describe the bread both before and after consecration, though it is more correct to use it after consecration

Btw it is possible to support the troops but be opposed to the army’s war.

 

[Lapey]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramental_bread#Catholic

A host is a portion of bread used for Holy Communion in many Christian churches. In Western Christianity the host is often a thin, round unleavened wafer.

The word ‘host’ is derived from the Latin, hostia, which means ‘sacrificial victim’. The term can be used to describe the bread both before and after consecration, though it is more correct to use it after consecration

Btw it is possible to support the troops but be opposed to the army’s war.

Communion host=wafer
Eucharist=Jesus
We will have to agree to disagree on this one, okay?

I agree with your change to my statement, war bad! John Paul II was outspoken against the war in Iraq. History has proven him to be correct.

 

[SteveVH]

What is God’s will? You say God’s will is to ‘eat his son’s body and drink his blood’. So, as long as YOU do this YOU are doing the will of the Father in Heaven? What about the sick…the poor…the lost, and those who have not yet eaten of Christ?

I didn’t say we should not act in charity toward the sick, the poor and the lost. My point is Jesus also commanded us to eat His body and drink His blood and made a pretty big deal about it. You refuse to follow His command in this regard, picking and choosing God’s will for you. As for taking care of the sick, the poor and the lost, no one can come close to matching the Catholic Church in this regard and we are all called on to contribute as a community of believers as well as personally.

If you have Christ in you then you are saved…but what about everyone else? No. The will of God is to share God with the rest of the world:

Mark 16:15 - And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

What is the Gospel?

Matthew 4:23 - Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom [of God], and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

Matthew 6:33 - But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

See above.

But aren’t we one with Christ just like He and our Father are one?

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

John 17:21 - I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one–as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be one in us so that the world will believe you sent me.

John 17:22 - I have given them the [same] glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one.

John 17:23 - I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.

Several times over the Messiah repeated himself in this prayer so there’s no need for interpretation is there? I have given no interpretation of leaned on any understanding that the words spoken by the Messiah.

You’re treading on dangerous ground here. Yes we will be one with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit but they will remain GOD and we will remain glorified HUMAN BEINGS. The fact that we will share in the interior life of the Trinity does transform us into gods. We may be “like gods”, but in that respect we have already been made in His “likeness”. I haven’t raised to many people from the dead lately, how about you?
To be “like” someone does not make you that someone. A candle is like the sun. It gives light and warmth “like” the sun, but it will never match the splendour and glory of the sun.

You do not recognize Christ’s words when they’re spoken, Steve?

It isn’t my words that do not make sense to you, Steve, because I haven’t given you my words as answers, but I gave His.

Yes I recognize Jesus’ words very clearly. When someone uses Jesus’ words as if they were his own, without giving Him the credit, I get a little concerned.

No, Steve. I haven’t denied that there is a reality to Holy Communion…but it’s not carnal [concern “fleshy” or “physical” understanding] but an act of sharing; sharing true life with those who do not have it. It profits no one to give true life to those who have already received it. We we’re told to do what the Messiah was doing at that moment…“sharing His life - true life - with those who did not previously have it”. Now that you have it - true life/ Christ’s everlasting life - in you, you are charged to spread the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is most present in the Eucharist, God dwelling among us. You have chosen your own definition and have ignored your predecessors in the faith who understood Christ’s words in that time and culture. They arrived at the conclusion that the Eucharist is the real presence of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity.

The Son can not do anything without the Father’s authority. This alone should prove that they are not equal.

No, it proves that they are ONE and do not act independently of each other. Jesus could not act if it was not the Father’s will anymore than your body could act without your will. Again, they are ONE.

 

[CMatt25]

Communion host=wafer
Eucharist=Jesus
We will have to agree to disagree on this one, okay?

I agree with your change to my statement, war bad! John Paul II was outspoken against the war in Iraq. History has proven him to be correct.

Wasn’t changing your statement. Just making a comment about the army and war. But sure I’m all about agreeing to disagree. And we can agree on the war. Peace.

 

[larkin31]

Ok, I was ignoring that comment, but if you insist. Correcting a wrong that was said in these instances, you and Cmatt were not bashing.

You want to call that bashing, so be it, I am a liar.

Sometimes you will say things that rile people up; it’s part of debate. If you don’t want to be called out then don’t make provocative statements like you did, the semi-pagan comment is what I refer here.

On Cmatt’s part the wafer comment from a Catholic is unacceptable no matter what meaning it held because others use it to persecute the belief in the Eucharist; it should never be used, especially by Catholics. If you want to see hate for us who believe what Jesus taught in John 6; google “wafer god” and it will be obvious why I reacted as I did. You may not agree with me but that is why the reaction and the “bashing “as you call it.

I used the brain comment to prove a point, and you took the bait hook line and sinker. I wrote it that way for a reason, and it worked. Words matter, there was no intent on my part to say Cmatt or you or me for that matter were any different. We are all just people trying to move down the road on our journey to Christ and His Father’s Kingdom. I am not any purer than Cmatt, or you since I am Catholic and you are not, we are all pilgrims on a pilgrimage.

If you believe I meant anything else by the brain comment then you are as much a liar as I and my point is well made.

The comment you made about semi-pagan worship was a bad choice of words on your part, because those words directed at the very worship that my Church prescribes means something different than what you wanted to say, so please consider different words.

That’s kind of like saying I am in support of the soldiers but I am against the army, it makes no sense.

Have a God day sir, and I wish you the peace of Christ.

Gary

Catholics can’t say, “I have often had my priest place the Communion wafer in my hands rather than in my mouth”?

And it is insulting to say, “The Christian metaphor of animal sacrifice and consumption of the sacrifice has historical roots in pagan practices”?

Are you going to repeat that my “brain needs nourishment”?

 

[Lapey]

Catholics can’t say, “I have often had my priest place the Communion wafer in my hands rather than in my mouth”?

And it is insulting to say, “The Christian metaphor of animal sacrifice and consumption of the sacrifice has historical roots in pagan practices”?

Are you going to repeat that my “brain needs nourishment”?

Your brain does need nourishment, just like mine!

We can start another thread if you would like to discuss the error in your pagan comments. The old testament rituals were directed by God to the Jews through Moses and the Torah. Is God, the God of Abraham or Moses, a pagan god? Or were His directives for worship rituals pagan in origin? I don’t think so. Now if you meant to say the there were pagan cults also that did some of these same types of things then we can agree, but that’s not what you said; although as my brain comment also caused confusion, I could have misunderstood what you said.

You are right and I am wrong, now can we move on?

 

[michaeldaniels]

Because they believe in Sola Scriptura…oh wait that is impossible, because even if they did, it would be clear that there IS A REAL PRESENCE…I think it is more accurate to say they believe in Selective Sola Scriptura…definition: that means they believe the parts they want to believe

Just have a question for the Protestants, more specifically those who reject the doctrine of the real presence in the elements of Communion.

Why do you reject it?

I’ve always considered it symbolic because it never occurred to me to believe that the Eucharist contains the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ. Lately however I’ve begun to change my mind concerning it, thinking that maybe it is indeed truly his body and blood.

Any thoughts by anyone?

 

[Justin_Mee]

I take the wafer at Communion but I have been known to pass on the wine because I really don’t like the taste of wine all that much. I would much rather the priest used grape juice. I like the taste of grape juice and then I wonder sometimes about people who have had problems with alcohol and how one sip could trigger a desire for more. And I’m not so sure about drinking after hundreds of people from the same cup. I’d like to see grape juice in paper cups. I’ve had Catholics refuse to offer me their hand in the sign of peace because they did not want to touch my hand I’m guessing because of germs.

I find this offensive coming from a “Catholic.”

 

[Joshua27]

I didn’t say we should not act in charity toward the sick, the poor and the lost. My point is Jesus also commanded us to eat His body and drink His blood and made a pretty big deal about it. You refuse to follow His command in this regard, picking and choosing God’s will for you. As for taking care of the sick, the poor and the lost, no one can come close to matching the Catholic Church in this regard and we are all called on to contribute as a community of believers as well as personally.

But what have YOU done, Steve? YOU are charged with spreading the Kingdom?

You’re treading on dangerous ground here…

I have stated nothing in this instance, Steve…I only gave scripture. Which one of us is providing interpretation of that scripture and which is merely providing the passage - verbatim - in context and in order?

Yes I recognize Jesus’ words very clearly. When someone uses Jesus’ words as if they were his own, without giving Him the credit, I get a little concerned.

I shouldn’t need to tell His sheep “these are the words of the Lord (praise be to God)”, because His sheep should recognized His words whenever spoken, correct?

The Kingdom of God is most present in the Eucharist, God dwelling among us. You have chosen your own definition and have ignored your predecessors in the faith who understood Christ’s words in that time and culture. They arrived at the conclusion that the Eucharist is the real presence of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity.

Did they? Are you sure? Regardless, if - like you claim - the Kingdom is present in the Eucharist, how many new people have you brought to eat it…or do you selfishly eat your portion every Sunday or Feast rather than sharing it with someone who hasn’t had it?

No, it proves that they are ONE and do not act independently of each other. Jesus could not act if it was not the Father’s will anymore than your body could act without your will. Again, they are ONE.

But they had two different wills, Steve. Also, Christ doesn’t know everything the Father knows, does he?

 

[larkin31]

Catholics can’t say, “I have often had my priest place the Communion wafer in my hands rather than in my mouth”?

What about this one? Is it ok?

 

[Adonia]

Just have a question for the Protestants, more specifically those who reject the doctrine of the real presence in the elements of Communion.

Why do you reject it?

I’ve always considered it symbolic because it never occurred to me to believe that the Eucharist contains the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ. Lately however I’ve begun to change my mind concerning it, thinking that maybe it is indeed truly his body and blood.

Any thoughts by anyone?

This is great that you are coming to understanding Holy Communion in this way. As a lifelong adherent of the Roman Rite, this has always been the main reason for the Mass. To have Our Lord present with us,to actually have “The Word” among us is the ultimate in worship. He said he would be with us always, not just in spirit, but really here. And He is!