On kneeling during the consecration

[scylla]

Intro
I serve my parish at Mass and for the past 20 or so years we have not knelt during the consecration. I increasingly have been disturbed about this and the more I read the more disturbed I get.

It is common for altar servers in my diocese and MC’s to not kneel during the consecration, we stand behind the priest.

The reasons I have been given is uniformity, which makes no sense if I am alone in serving, and stupid because if everyone is doing wrong it doesn’t mean we should do wrong. Most recently a priest said that this is what they did in the early Church.
This seems to me like a rejection of Mediator Dei, as it promotes antiquarianism.

My question

Please give me a logical reason to stand(not kneel) and continue to serve. I asked for permission to kneel and it was rejected. Right now I feel I am just conforming to the desire of others who reject the unique ordained priesthood and diminish the real Presence, while I am publicly denying my faith. I
am taking a few days off to pray and discern what I should do.

Any help would be appreciated,
God Bless,
Scylla

 

[diggerdomer]

Intro
I serve my parish at Mass and for the past 20 or so years we have not knelt during the consecration. I increasingly have been disturbed about this and the more I read the more disturbed I get.

It is common for altar servers in my diocese and MC’s to not kneel during the consecration, we stand behind the priest.

The reasons I have been given is uniformity, which makes no sense if I am alone in serving, and stupid because if everyone is doing wrong it doesn’t mean we should do wrong. Most recently a priest said that this is what they did in the early Church.
This seems to me like a rejection of Mediator Dei, as it promotes antiquarianism.

My question

Please give me a logical reason to stand(not kneel) and continue to serve. I asked for permission to kneel and it was rejected. Right now I feel I am just conforming to the desire of others who reject the unique ordained priesthood and diminish the real Presence, while I am publicly denying my faith. I
am taking a few days off to pray and discern what I should do.

Any help would be appreciated,
God Bless,
Scylla

For the U.S., I believe the relevant guidance is in the GIRM

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

Hope that helps.

 

[5Loaves]

Intro
I serve my parish at Mass and for the past 20 or so years we have not knelt during the consecration. I increasingly have been disturbed about this and the more I read the more disturbed I get.

It is common for altar servers in my diocese and MC’s to not kneel during the consecration, we stand behind the priest.

The reasons I have been given is uniformity, which makes no sense if I am alone in serving, and stupid because if everyone is doing wrong it doesn’t mean we should do wrong. Most recently a priest said that this is what they did in the early Church.
This seems to me like a rejection of Mediator Dei, as it promotes antiquarianism.

My question

Please give me a logical reason to stand(not kneel) and continue to serve. I asked for permission to kneel and it was rejected. Right now I feel I am just conforming to the desire of others who reject the unique ordained priesthood and diminish the real Presence, while I am publicly denying my faith. I
am taking a few days off to pray and discern what I should do.

Any help would be appreciated,
God Bless,
Scylla

issalGIR****M
Movements and Posture
43. In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

If you look at the beginning of this section, titled Movements and Posture you’ll see:
42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.Therefore, *attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
*
A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

Perhaps you priest is focusing on the second paragraph about unity rather than the initial paragraph about “attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite”.

(In many Eastern Catholic Churches we do not kneel on Sundays. We do maintain a profound bow throughout the Words of Institution and the Epiclesis. The First ecumenical council, held in 325 forbade kneeling on Sundays “#20 Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees that, so that the same observances may be maintained in every diocese, one should offer one’s prayers to the Lord standing.” This may be what your priest is referring to in terms of the early church, which this first Council of Nicaea sought to bring into conformity when some were kneeling and it deems ought not to have been.)

Has your bishop perhaps decreed this deviation from the GIRM?

 

[scylla]

I am pretty sure my bishop has not decreed this deviation from the GIRM.

I am not eastern Catholic and as a Roman Catholic in the United States it is our custom to kneel for God.

If he did would it make it right for me to follow, even if I know I am denying my faith. Would the sin be on my bishop and I wouldn’t have to worry about it. I know it sounds arrogant, yet I know the proper response of Jesus being made present is to kneel. So to deny that is to deny the reality of Jesus being present and being God.

Am I off? Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks,
Scylla

 

[diggerdomer]

I
I am not eastern Catholic and as a Roman Catholic in the United States it is our custom to kneel for God.

Every posture we take at liturgy is “for God.” We stand “for God” at the proclamation of the Gospel because Christ is speaking to us. We sit “for God” during the other readings (including psalm). We process “for God” during the Communion Rite and other Rites that call for processions. Every posture and gesture we perform at Mass (and all liturgies) is “for God.”

 

[scylla]

Amen, yet if I do something different for a particular ideology it isn’t for God.

Lets say I am told to not stand during the Gospel as Jesus is our Brother and we should sit to listen to the words of our Brother. (with the implication that Jesus is not God)

Would you sit?

In Christ
Scylla

 

[diggerdomer]

Amen, yet if I do something different for a particular ideology it isn’t for God.

Lets say I am told to not stand during the Gospel as Jesus is our Brother and we should sit to listen to the words of our Brother. (with the implication that Jesus is not God)

Would you sit?

In Christ
Scylla

I’d take into consideration what (paraphrased) St. Augustine advised: when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Posture at liturgy is not a priori a matter of sin. Keep the big picture.

 

[scylla]

I’d take into consideration what (paraphrased) St. Augustine advised: when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Posture at liturgy is not a priori a matter of sin. Keep the big picture.

Hmm, one of the best answers I have heard. Thank you. I will consider that point…

But, you did not answer my question.

When in Rome do as the Romans do, but what about if I have been doing that and now it seems like the particular Romans I am with are not doing something good.
I am trying to find a justification for the action that is not implicitly a denial of the faith.

Thanks
Scylla

 

[diggerdomer]

Hmm, one of the best answers I have heard. Thank you. I will consider that point…

But, you did not answer my question.

When in Rome do as the Romans do, but what about if I have been doing that and now it seems like the particular Romans I am with are not doing something good.
I am trying to find a justification for the action that is not implicitly a denial of the faith.

Thanks
Scylla

I may not understand your situation correctly, please clarify as needed.

Are you saying that no one kneels during the consecration, or just certain ministers in the altar area? If the former, that would seem to definitely be contrary to what the Church approves and should be addressed. If the latter, that’s acceptable, as I understand it, as long as those so standing perform a profound bow during the consecration. For example, it is often approved for a cantor (or acolyte, or others) to remain standing during the Eucharistic Prayer.

Does that help?

 

[5Loaves]

I may not understand your situation correctly, please clarify as needed.

Are you saying that no one kneels during the consecration, or just certain ministers in the altar area? If the former, that would seem to definitely be contrary to what the Church approves and should be addressed. If the latter, that’s acceptable, as I understand it, as long as those so standing perform a profound bow during the consecration. For example, it is often approved for a cantor (or acolyte, or others) to remain standing during the Eucharistic Prayer.

Does that help?

It helps me, because I did misunderstand OP

I serve my parish at Mass and for the past 20 or so years we have not knelt during the consecration. I increasingly have been disturbed about this and the more I read the more disturbed I get.

I thought the “we” was the congregation/the faithful. The section of the GIRM a couple of us quoted would pertain to those, “in the pews”.

Of course where the EMHC stand at the point in the Mass of the consecration is another topic (in my parish we stand close enough to touch the altar which is definitely not considered appropriate in the rubrics), as well as the stipulation that EMHC only be used in extraordinary circumstances of very large numbers, thus the name EMHC etc., as to the whole practice in general being out of confirmation with the GIRM.

“162. The priest may be assisted in the distribution of Communion by other priests who happen to be present. If such priests are not present and there is a very large number of communicants, the priest may call upon extraordinary ministers to assist him, e.g., duly instituted acolytes or even other faithful who have been deputed for this purpose. In case of necessity, the priest may depute suitable faithful for this single occasion.
These ministers should not approach the altar before the priest has received Communion, and they are always to receive from the hands of the priest celebrant the vessel containing either species of the Most Holy Eucharist for distribution to the faithful.” GIRM

I’m routinely in Mass where there are less than 30 people present and EMHC are involved.

 

[5Loaves]

I am not eastern Catholic and as a Roman Catholic in the United States it is our custom to kneel for God.

My point in part was that first Council of Nicaea predates the United States and the Catholic Church Not kneeling on Sundays/the Lord’s Day/little Easter was deemed the universal norm by The Church in 325 AD. Obviously that eventually changed in some places. There isn’t a universal posture. As others have said we take a variety of postures in liturgy. (And in most Eastern churches lots of kneeling occurs in liturgy on any day but Sunday.)

If he did would it make it right for me to follow, even if I know I am denying my faith.

Well, would you consider it faithful to reject the instruction of your bishop? If so then I would say you’d be denying the teaching authority of the Church, that our bishops are our teachers.

Your priest or deacon should be able to give you a considered and meaningful explanation of the practice. You certainly have the right to such an explanation from them if you continue to feel disturbed by it.

 

[5Loaves]

For example, it is often approved for a cantor (or acolyte, or others) to remain standing during the Eucharistic Prayer.

The GIRM says "In the dioceses of the United States of America, they [the faithful] should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. "

To me that says those who can kneel should and those who can’t should remain standing (as those outside the US do apparently). It’s a mystery to me that this doesn’t seem to happen. Rather what happens is that those who can’t kneel in the US sit down, which, to me, is not indicated in the GIRM.

 

[MusicMan]

If you were to use the GIRM to justify your point, your priest would probably look to the “some other good reason” and use that as his justification for directing the altar servers to stand (some other good reason being that you’re serving Mass). I would accept this as a power reserved to the celebrant and follow his directions on those grounds.

The depth at which you are thinking about this is probably a case of going too far, and I would suspect would be irritating to your priest were you to lecture him on the uniqueness of the priesthood and the diminishing belief in the Real Presence. It’s also a bit hypocritical for a lay person to lecture a priest about the uniqueness of the priesthood, as it does, in fact, deny the authority of his office.

Rather, I would approach the priest this way. “Father, I would prefer to kneel while serving to show proper reverence. May I do so when serving alone? When serving with another server, may we kneel?”

Rather than arm up with the GIRM, try a humble before the Lord and his Priest approach.

 

[scylla]

Thank you for the responses,
To clarify, I am serving at the altar and we stand a couple feet behind the Priest during the consecration.
Every Priest I have asked has said that it is ok to kneel, the one Priest that gave me the contrary answer was defending what the leader of our parish was advocating.
(we do not have a parish priest we have a parish administrator who advocates the standing)

I am obedient to my Bishop but I am not going to defend him if he is teaching contrary to the Church, I will just be obedient and try and not cause scandal. I am not sure he is teaching contrary to the Church as it is a large diocese and he is more concerned with other things than the liturgy.(immigration and social justice type stuff)

I understand that our practice has changed, but pointing to the Council of Nicea seems to be advocating antiquarianism, (Mediator Dei).

Thanks for your responses, I have asked in the way suggested to Priests and all have given me permission, yet my parish administrator is quite adamant against this.

I do not know if I can stand in good concience in front of the assembly as it seems to me to be denying my faith that Jesus is present. I know He is present and my response to His presence is to kneel. How do I justify not doing this? I am really trying to find a way since I am one of the only people who serve and I want to serve without denying my faith.
(our actions reflect our beliefs)

In Christ
Scylla

 

[MusicMan]

So the next time you serve solo, kneel. The next time you have a partner, kneel. If your partner doesn’t, give his alb a tug and suggest he kneel.

 

[John_Lilburne]

Let me try to expand on “some other good reason”.

Once at the Melbourne cathedral I saw an altar server kneeling on the marble floor, who fainted.

Say the priest saw or experienced something like that. Say there was permanent injury to the altar server. Say the priest found the experience so traumatic that if an altar server is kneeling he needs to say the Eucharistic Prayer twice as fast a normal because he is so anxious about the altar server fainting and injuring himself.

My point is that “some other good reason” is so broad that it can include almost anything. So this is a difficult point to choose for a confrontation with the priest.

 

[revert_jen]

Sorry, still not sure of the situation, but I’ll barge in anyway.

If you are acting as an EMHC, the answer is right here:

"162. The priest may … call upon extraordinary ministers

to assist him… These ministers should not approach the altar before the priest has received Communion…"

You should still be with the congregation at consecration, so you should be doing what the congregation does (i.e. kneeling) both out of respect and out of unity.

If you are an altar server, then I think you really have to follow the priest’s directions when you are serving at his Mass. I don’t think that kneeling when you have been told to stand is a good idea. If nothing else, it might distract and disturb the priest at that most holy of times.

It is possible that it would be better for you not to serve at Mass, if it is causing you such trouble. Service at Mass shouldn’t be making you feel that you are serving God less well.

Or alternatively, you can look on the spiritual discomfort of standing at the consecration (since it is permitted according to “some other good reason”) as a further act of service to the congregation (in effect, “offer it up” for the congregation). Also, a profound bow (and staying down through the consecration) can be very respectful and reverential.

Best wishes on your decision,

–Jen

 

[PJM]

=scylla-Intro
I serve my parish at Mass and for the past 20 or so years we have not knelt during the consecration. I increasingly have been disturbed about this and the more I read the more disturbed I get.

It is common for altar servers in my diocese and MC’s to not kneel during the consecration, we stand behind the priest.

The reasons I have been given is uniformity, which makes no sense if I am alone in serving, and stupid because if everyone is doing wrong it doesn’t mean we should do wrong. Most recently a priest said that this is what they did in the early Church.
This seems to me like a rejection of Mediator Dei, as it promotes antiquarianism.

My question

Please give me a logical reason to stand(not kneel) and continue to serve. I asked for permission to kneel and it was rejected. Right now I feel I am just conforming to the desire of others who reject the unique ordained priesthood and diminish the real Presence, while I am publicly denying my faith. I
am taking a few days off to pray and discern what I should do.

Any help would be appreciated,
God Bless,
Scylla

Your priest is wrong both on kneeling and having lay-folk stand around him durring the Consecration as a symbol that “all of us make Christ present.”

You ought to advise your Bishop.

From the Current General Instruction of the Roman Missal:GRIM

The Fraction

1. The priest breaks the Eucharistic Bread, assisted, if the case calls for it, by the deacon or a concelebrant. Christ’s gesture of breaking bread at the Last Supper, which gave the entire Eucharistic Action its name in apostolic times, signifies that the many faithful are made one body (1 Cor 10:17) by receiving Communion from the one Bread of Life which is Christ, who died and rose for the salvation of the world. The fraction or breaking of bread is begun after the sign of peace and is carried out with proper reverence, though it should not be unnecessarily prolonged, nor should it be accorded undue importance. This rite is reserved to the priest and the deacon.
2. In the celebration of Mass the faithful form a holy people, a people whom God has made his own, a royal priesthood, so that they may give thanks to God and offer the spotless Victim not only through the hands of the priest but also together with him, and so that they may learn to offer themselves.

Thus, they are to shun any appearance of individualism or division, keeping before their eyes that they have only one Father in heaven and accordingly are all brothers and sisters to each other.

*43. In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

Sorry I can’t seem to locate it but the rubic is that Ordinary Ministers of the Eucharist are NOT to enter the “Holy of Holies” by the Altar until AFTER the Priest / Celebrants have received Holy Communion. I’m sure someone knows where to find it. *

My suggestion is drop out of being an Ordinary Minister nearly evey mass and every day, everywhere can hardly be termed “extrodinary” which the Indult specifies! You unknowingly are participating in an Liturgical abuse!

Love and prayers,

 

[scylla]

So the next time you serve solo, kneel. The next time you have a partner, kneel. If your partner doesn’t, give his alb a tug and suggest he kneel.

Great advice, I did this last time I served. It was just me and an altar boy who when I said that I was going to kneel said “ok, I’ll kneel too”. Easy, peasy…
Except this apparantly is wrong to do, since my parish administrator doesn’t like us kneeling. So I have been seeking a way to justify to myself why I should stand, and I keep on feeling like it is a compromise of my faith.

I have the alternative of a Latin Mass in town in which I would have no such problem, but I want to be faithful to my parish, I belong to it. Or my choice is to sit with my family in the pews and not serve. I did this this last Sunday and it was quite nice to be able to practice my faith without having to deny it publically.

I asked the only person who I could think of who is very holy who lives in town, and she said this…
“Do not be lukewarm in your faith, remember what Jesus said to those who are lukewarm.”

John: “some other good reason” does seem kinda broad to me and it can be twisted to fit an agenda that is not in comformity with our faith.

In Christ,
Scylla

 

[MusicMan]

I commend your devotion to the Eucharist. If all could have such zeal.

I would say this… unless you are explicitly told not to kneel, (“You will not kneel.”) I suggest you kneel and be done with it. If your PA says, “I don’t like that you kneel,” charitably reply and ignore his issue. You have the right to kneel under the GIRM. Exercise it.

As to “some other good reason,” I’m going to buy that the celebrant has the authority to determine that for the servers. However, it’s a permission, not a command. I do not believe the GIRM gives the celebrant the authority to order you to kneel, rather it gives him the authority to permit you to stand. The two are not the same.