On loopholes in doctrine

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“In 1740, Christina Johansdotter, a suicidal Swedish woman, exploited a loophole in dogmas. Suicide leading to Hell and infanticides being punishable by death, she decided to kill a child since repenting for a crime granted forgiveness, thus leading her to Heaven after her execution.”

Thoughts?
 
Yes, I think contrition is needed. Therefore not a loophole at all.
 
It’s not a loophole.

If you’re contrite, God will give you sanctifying grace.

If you’re not contrite, God can’t give you sanctifying grace, though he wants to.
 
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I think this is the sin of presumption, arrogantly assuming forgiveness despite having no real contrition. Possibly she also suffered from insanity.
 
She was trying to game the system. That doesn’t work on God.
 
Zaccheus said:
She was trying to game the system. That doesn’t work on God.
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I agree. But perhaps there is a point here worth thinking about.
Case 1. Bob leads a virtuous life, being a good father of several children, a faithful husband and later a good grandfather always supporting and doing what is best for his family. His language is courteous and decent. He attends Mass regularly on every Sunday, and is a practicing Catholic. Anyone would say he was a good Christian Catholic. However, one Sunday he decides he would not go to Mass, but he would watch a much celebrated football game on cable TV. He knows that this is wrong, but just this one time he wants to talk to his friends and buddies about this game. Then later that night, early Monday morning he dies of a heart attack while sleeping. He did not repent yet so according to the teaching, he goes to eternal damnation in hell because he has committed a mortal sin of deliberately missing Mass on Sunday.
Case 2. Joe is a drunk on many occasions, he steals from liquor stores and he beats his wife. His wife has all kinds of sores and bruises from his beatings. He refuses to help his children and shouts and humiliates them whenever guests are present. He is constantly cursing and blaming everyone else when something goes wrong. He is smoking all day long even though his children have asthma and get sick from the smoke. He gets into arguments easily and one day he argues with his neighbor over a parking space. He has shovelled out the snow from a parking spot in the street and expects that he should have that parking space, but when he has left for a while, his neighbor takes the parking space and refuses to give it up. Joe gets angry and decides to show his neighbor who is boss, so he gets his gun to end the argument. The gun goes off and kills his neighbor. In the meantime there are several witnesses trying to stop Joe, and Joe decides to kill them too, including some young children. Joe is then tried and convicted for murder and is set to be executed. Before his execution, he makes a good confession and does what is necessary to obtain a plenary indulgence. He is then executed and goes directly into heaven.
…
Obviously this is a hypothetical scenario, but perhaps the lady was trying to make a similar point.
 
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Question: Does Bob die insisting he did nothing wrong? Is Joe honestly repentant for what he did? I don’t think either example can be fully examined without some knowledge of how they view their sin and their position with regards to God.

Depending on how you set those cases up, Bob may be saying “You know what, God, I’ve been doing it your way all my life. I’ve decided I want to do it my way.” Whereas Joe might be saying “God, I’ve done it my way and look where that got me. No more of that. I’m doing it your way from now on.” In that case, Joe is in a profoundly better position with God, despite his previous actions being much worse.
 
Yeah, as if God in Heaven would be like, “aha! You got me! I was waiting until someone figured out that one.”
 
AlNg said:
…
Obviously this is a hypothetical scenario, but perhaps the lady was trying to make a similar point.
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Could be. Certainly we know what it means from the Catechism
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
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I would say that Bob spends time in Purgatory, to atone for skipping Mass; and that Joe, if he is really, truly contrite, also spends time there. If Joe is not truly contrite, then he gets a one-way ticket to Hell.
 
Vico said:
we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
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So true… I don’t think we can ever understand the judgment of God, or will we ever be able too.

If Purgatory is a place God places us to atone for our sins before entering eternal damnation or His kingdom, don’t you think God is doing all that is possible to save His children?

I am one that believes, God knows our hearts better then we can ever understand.

God knows Bob’s heart and reason for staying home to watch football. God know Joe’s heart when he asked for forgiveness for killing that man.

I also truly believe God knows why someone heart who chooses suicide as the only out for the pain they must be suffering on earth.

Its NOT a loophole, its just something we can NEVER understand… God’s mercy, forgiveness and love.
 
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annad347 said:
If Purgatory is a place God places us to atone for our sins before entering eternal damnation or His kingdom, don’t you think God is doing all that is possible to save His children?
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I assume you just misspoke, but I just wanted to be clear. If you are in purgatory, you are saved, period. The pains of purgatory are likened to the pains Hell, but they are temporary. You will not go to purgatory, pay for your sins, and then go to Hell.

The entire point of Hell is that you have not repented for your sins, and you never will, because you will never feel remorse for them.

The point of purgatory is that you have repented for your sins, but still have a debt that must be paid on account of them. Purgatory is where you pay that debt and cleanse your soul so as to be able to allow yourself to stand in the presence of God.
 
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ProdglArchitect said:
The point of purgatory is that you have repented for your sins, but still have a debt that must be paid on account of them. Purgatory is where you pay that debt and cleanse your soul so as to be able to allow yourself to stand in the presence of God.
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Oh, okay then, yes I don’t think I really understand Purgatory. Sorry.
 
annad347 said:
Oh, okay then, yes I don’t think I really understand Purgatory. Sorry.
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No problem.

Purgatory is basically that last stop on the line before you enter Heaven. Nothing unclean can stand before God, and Purgatory is where a saved soul goes in order to remove whatever effects sin has left in the soul.

When you sin, it has a real impact on your soul, and you incur two kinds of debt. There is the debt of guilt, and the debt of pain (in recompense for the affront to God.) Reconciliation forgives the debt of guilt, but you still have the debt of pain that you have to go through to purify your soul from the effects of that sin. On Earth, that is handled via penance , fasting, and other works of charity. Once you die, you no longer have the ability to do penance, and so you must undergo the unforgiven debt of pain for your life.

I’m reading a book on Purgatory now, if you’d be interested. It’s very sobering, and intended to increase the reader’s desire to pray for those in purgatory, as well as to do penances for them and for yourself.
 
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GraceJ said:
I would say that Bob spends time in Purgatory, to atone for skipping Mass; and that Joe, if he is really, truly contrite, also spends time there.
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Yes. Your answer does seem to be about right. But is your answer in line with official teaching?
Officially
  1. Missing Mass on Sunday without excuse is a mortal sin.
  2. Confession followed by gaining a plenary indulgence wipes away all sin.
 
@AlNg

Regarding Bob and Joe.
On the one hand God is not sitting up there waiting for Bob to slip so God can yell “GOTCHA!” and throw Bob into Hell.

On the other hand true repentance can lead to salvation even after a life of horrible sin. That does not mean an automatic ticket straight to Heaven. You might have to spend years, decades or even centuries in Purgatory first.
 
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AlNg said:
Case 1. Bob leads a virtuous life, being a good father of several children, a faithful husband and later a good grandfather always supporting and doing what is best for his family. His language is courteous and decent. He attends Mass regularly on every Sunday, and is a practicing Catholic. Anyone would say he was a good Christian Catholic. However, one Sunday he decides he would not go to Mass, but he would watch a much celebrated football game on cable TV. He knows that this is wrong, but just this one time he wants to talk to his friends and buddies about this game. Then later that night, early Monday morning he dies of a heart attack while sleeping. He did not repent yet so according to the teaching, he goes to eternal damnation in hell because he has committed a mortal sin of deliberately missing Mass on Sunday.
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First of all I’m impressed you had him die of a heart attack and not the ever popular hit-by-a-bus.

Second, sin is not a fun treat we should earn by “good deeds”.

Sin is poison.

By your logic, a person should spend their whole life eating properly, getting adequate sleep and exercise, medical care and healthy choices, then at the age of seventy be able to drink a big tumbler of bleach without consequences.
 
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