On Mary being born 'free of sin', and 'free will'

[Charlotte408]

Mary was born without the original stain of sin.

God did this because He knew one day that she would bear His son, Lord Jesus, and He must come into this world into a perfect, untainted womb…right?

Angel comes to Mary and says, ‘Behold Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee…’ tells her of Gods plans…and she says, ‘Let it be so’.

But- we have free will. What if she had said no?

How could she have been born without original sin, if there is free will? Isnt it almost like He didnt give her much choice? Because if she had said no, what would have happened?? Would she instantly recieve the stain? Or would she continue on without it?? Would He have had to of found another host?

I take that- God is all knowing, and that someone might reply with- 'Well He KNEW that she would say ‘yes’.

Well then how is that free will??? Its more cheating isnt it? Thats like, inside trading! LOL…

Then again maybe thats why God will always win over Satan…he’s got the inside information…

Thoughts…comments?

 

[John_oxios]

Mary was born without the original stain of sin.

God did this because He knew one day that she would bear His son, Lord Jesus, and He must come into this world into a perfect, untainted womb…right?

Angel comes to Mary and says, ‘Behold Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee…’ tells her of Gods plans…and she says, ‘Let it be so’.

But- we have free will. What if she had said no?

How could she have been born without original sin, if there is free will? Isnt it almost like He didnt give her much choice? Because if she had said no, what would have happened?? Would she instantly recieve the stain? Or would she continue on without it?? Would He have had to of found another host?

I take that- God is all knowing, and that someone might reply with- 'Well He KNEW that she would say ‘yes’.

Well then how is that free will??? Its more cheating isnt it? Thats like, inside trading! LOL…

Then again maybe thats why God will always win over Satan…he’s got the inside information…

Thoughts…comments?

Hello Charlotte,
I guess God preparing the way for His Son to enter the World is a laughing matter to you? And the Catholic Faith you profess to love… Why is Catholicism so hard for Catholics to grasp? It is the Protestants who inflict doubt and disbelief into our community.

   The Ark in the Hebrew Scriptures was not to be touched by Humans because the presence of God was within it.  

If Mary had been born under/in original sin then Jesus himself would be born under original sin, life is in the blood.   Mary and Jesus shared the same blood.

But how it is explained is:
We are all born in the same pool, and by Jesus’ Death on the Cross, We can reach up, and by His saving Grace pulls us out of the pool.
The kingdom of God is
God living in Eternity, where He is ‘out of time’ as we know it, saves Mary preventing her ever entering the pool, by His Death on the Cross. Whereby she can be the sin free.
Remember it tok God Himself some 1800 yrs After Abraham to prepare One Human being to bear His Son.s
The Jews believe that certain Characteristics in persons would be passed down from generation to generation. Every once in awhile they would explode in someone, i.e. Moses, Joshua, the Judges, David, Solomon and the prophets… well in Mary all these characteristics came to a height and in Jesus all were brought together…Jesus came in the fulness of time. there’s a verse in Ezekiel 44:

NKJV
Eze 44:1 Then He brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary which faces toward the east, but it was shutt.

Eze 44:2 And the LORD said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut.

God always comes from the east, even through Mary…

God Bless,
John

 

[Charlotte408]

Hello Charlotte,
I guess God preparing the way for His Son to enter the World is a laughing matter to you? And the Catholic Faith you profess to love…

Dont get ugly with me. It was the comparision I made that I laughed at. Or the the thought of God ‘inside trading’ like Martha Stewart. I do love God, Jesus, and my CC- I also love myself but have no problem having a laugh at my own expense every now and then.

Why is Catholicism so hard for Catholics to grasp? It is the Protestants who inflict doubt and disbelief into our community.

Dont talk to any protestants and this is my own little overactive brain at werk here, but I appreciate this website and its effort to help understand the in’s and out’s of what I believe.

The Ark in the Hebrew Scriptures was not to be touched by Humans because the presence of God was within it.

If Mary had been born under/in original sin then Jesus himself would be born under original sin, life is in the blood.   Mary and Jesus shared the same blood.

But how it is explained is:
We are all born in the same pool, and by Jesus’ Death on the Cross, We can reach up, and by His saving Grace pulls us out of the pool.
The kingdom of God is
God living in Eternity, where He is ‘out of time’ as we know it, saves Mary preventing her ever entering the pool, by His Death on the Cross. Whereby she can be the sin free.

But Jesus’s death on the cross didnt happen until AFTER Mary was born. So, yes, we are all born in the same pool, and Jesus reaches in and pulls us out, but this was after He lived and died for us, BEFORE- we were born into the pool, and stuck, correct?

Remember it tok God Himself some 1800 yrs After Abraham to prepare One Human being to bear His Son.s
The Jews believe that certain Characteristics in persons would be passed down from generation to generation. Every once in awhile they would explode in someone, i.e. Moses, Joshua, the Judges, David, Solomon and the prophets… well in Mary all these characteristics came to a height and in Jesus all were brought together…Jesus came in the fulness of time. there’s a verse in Ezekiel 44:

NKJV
Eze 44:1 Then He brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary which faces toward the east, but it was shutt.

Eze 44:2 And the LORD said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut.

God always comes from the east, even through Mary…

God Bless,
John

Ok I understand all that but I dont think it answers any of my questions about Mary and her being born free of sin. If there truly is free will, wouldnt she have been born with the stain of original sin, and then, when the Angel came to her and said she would bear the Son her sins would have been washed- more like a baptism of some sort? She ‘choose’, with her own free will to take it on?

Because if she was born without the original stain of sin then that would mean that she was ‘predestined’ to give birth to Jesus, which would mean that she didnt have ‘free will’- and I thought we didnt believe in predestination?

FYI from here on out- I very much believe in Mary, I ADORE her, but I just think a lot

 

[John_oxios]

Mary was born without the original stain of sin.

God did this because He knew one day that she would bear His son, Lord Jesus, and He must come into this world into a perfect, untainted womb…right?

Angel comes to Mary and says, ‘Behold Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee…’ tells her of Gods plans…and she says, ‘Let it be so’.

But- we have free will. What if she had said no?

How could she have been born without original sin, if there is free will? Isnt it almost like He didnt give her much choice? Because if she had said no, what would have happened?? Would she instantly recieve the stain? Or would she continue on without it?? Would He have had to of found another host?

I take that- God is all knowing, and that someone might reply with- 'Well He KNEW that she would say ‘yes’.

Well then how is that free will??? Its more cheating isnt it? Thats like, inside trading! LOL…

Then again maybe thats why God will always win over Satan…he’s got the inside information…

Thoughts…comments?

Hello Charlotte,

                  Don't We become New Creatures in Christ? How much more Mary

This is what the Catholic Church Teaches, Even Martin Luther believed in Mary as the Mother of God, and her perpetual Virginity, and her Assumption into heaven.

CCC#

          Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 3, Paragraph 2, SubSection 2, Heading 2

490 To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary “was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.” 1(32) The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28) In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace

(132)
Lumen gentium 56

The Father of mercies willed that the incarnation should be preceded by the acceptance of her who was predestined to be the mother of His Son, so that just as a woman contributed to death, so also a woman should contribute to life. That is true in outstanding fashion of the mother of Jesus, who gave to the world Him who is Life itself and who renews all things, and who was enriched by God with the gifts which befit such a role. It is no wonder therefore that the usage prevailed among the Fathers whereby they called the mother of God entirely holy and free from all stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature.(5*) Adorned from the first instant of her conception with the radiance of an entirely unique holiness, the Virgin of Nazareth is greeted, on God’s command, by an angel messenger as “full of grace”,(286) and to the heavenly messenger she replies: “Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word”.(287) Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God’s salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she “being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith.”(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “the Mother of the living,”(8*) and still more often they say: “death through Eve, life through Mary.”(9*)

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, 134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:​

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. 135

As the Angel described Luke 1:28 " “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!,” What is FULL, cannot be filled anymore.
How many people can say the Holy Spirit came down upon them and they were overshadowed by the power of the Most High? God madeMary extra special. That’s why we place her above all men.

God bless,
john

 

[puzzleannie]

Mary was born without the original stain of sin.

But- we have free will. What if she had said no?

How could she have been born without original sin, if there is free will??

in the same way that Adam and Eve were created without original sin or without any sin and with free will. They chose evil, she chose good. God does not exist in human time but is outside time, so he knows always in the present what anyone does or fails to do, not as knowledge of some future event or choice. His knowledge does not limit the choices we make by free will, nor did they inhibit Adam and Eve, or Mary in making their free choice for or against his will.

OP’s question is an apologetics issue and is discussed at great length on that forum, including at least 3 current threads

 

[Charlotte408]

If there truly is free will, wouldnt she have been born with the stain of original sin, and then, when the Angel came to her and said she would bear the Son her sins would have been washed- more like a baptism of some sort? She ‘choose’, with her own free will to take it on?

Because if she was born without the original stain of sin then that would mean that she was ‘predestined’ to give birth to Jesus, which would mean that she didnt have ‘free will’- and I thought we didnt believe in predestination?

I think the bolded part is what I’m trying to get at.

 

[Catholic90]

Hello Charlotte,
I guess God preparing the way for His Son to enter the World is a laughing matter to you? And the Catholic Faith you profess to love… Why is Catholicism so hard for Catholics to grasp? It is the Protestants who inflict doubt and disbelief into our community.

You are being really hard on her! Who says she thinks it is a laughing matter?
She is simply trying to UNDERSTAND.

I guess it must feel really good to have ALL THE ANSWERS, John. Wow. Many good and holy priests readily admit they do not have all the answers and are plagued by doubt sometimes! (The honest ones admit that anyway!).

A little kindness and charity go a long way! - the whole flies and honey thing…

 

[John_oxios]

Dont get ugly with me. It was the comparision I made that I laughed at. Or the the thought of God ‘inside trading’ like Martha Stewart. I do love God, Jesus, and my CC- I also love myself but have no problem having a laugh at my own expense every now and then.Dont get ugly with me. It was the comparision I made that I laughed at. Or the the thought of God ‘inside trading’ like Martha Stewart. I do love God, Jesus, and my CC- I also love myself but have no problem having a laugh at my own expense every now and then.

 

[John_oxios]

You are being really hard on her! Who says she thinks it is a laughing matter?
She is simply trying to UNDERSTAND.

I guess it must feel really good to have ALL THE ANSWERS, John. Wow. Many good and holy priests readily admit they do not have all the answers and are plagued by doubt sometimes! (The honest ones admit that anyway!).

A little kindness and charity go a long way! - the whole flies and honey thing…

Hello Catholic 90,
as Steve Martin would say, EXXXXCuuse me! Accusing God of Cheating? Poking fun at our Catholic belief?
I guess I do take my faith to seriously but the Bible says:

NKJV 1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always [be] ready to [give] a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear

RSV
1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;

I’m use to discussing Catholic teachings with Protestants… ex-Catholics… and cafeteria Catholics… also Converts to Catholicism who take an Oath to believe in all Catholic beliefs… and then begin bashing the ones they refuse to understand… i.e. the Pope

I don’t have all the answers… but id do look up, and pray that God helps me in what I don’t understand… after spending twelve yrs. as a Protestant, coming back, even though I learned in My heart, that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Christ stated… Mary was a Hurdle to accept because of all the poison pills the protestants stuffed down my throat… I also through study, perseverance…adn prayer learned to Love Mary…

God bless,
John

 

[manualman]

It is an interesting question because it reveals something about the asker!

The way you phrase the question shows that you don’t comprehend that time itself is aprt of creation. God is Eternal, which doesn’t just mean that he’s been around a really, really long time. He exists outside of the constraints of time. All of creation history is present to him equally right now. Think about it carefully so your brain doesn’t explode.

Right now, God is equally present at the time of Adam/Eve, Moses, Abraham, Jesus earthly ministry, and today. For him, it’s no sweat to know what will happen without having to FORCE it to happen.

As human parents, we sometimes have a slight reflection of this gift. Can’t you just TELL sometimes what your little ones are going to do right before they do it? When my 2 year old gets tired at night, she often gets giddy and hyper shortly before she gets overtired and has a meltdown. I KNOW what’s going to happen, but I didn’t CONTROL her and MAKE her have a meltdown. See the difference? God has the original version of this power and it extends to all of creation history/future.

God isn’t just smarter than us and with bigger muscles. He’s completely different (and greater) than we are. We’d best remember this when struggling with confusing issues.

 

[John_oxios]

You are being really hard on her! Who says she thinks it is a laughing matter?
She is simply trying to UNDERSTAND.

I guess it must feel really good to have ALL THE ANSWERS, John. Wow. Many good and holy priests readily admit they do not have all the answers and are plagued by doubt sometimes! (The honest ones admit that anyway!).

A little kindness and charity go a long way! - the whole flies and honey thing…

Hi There,
Many priests have doubts?

Dictionary.com:

–verb (used with object)

1. to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely;** hesitate to believe.**
2. to distrust.
3. Archaic. to fear; be apprehensive about.
   –verb (used without object)
4. to be uncertain about something; be undecided in opinion or belief.
   –noun
5. a feeling of** uncertainty about the truth,** reality, or nature of something

Faith:

1. confidence or trust…
2. belief that is not based on proof
3. belief in God or** in the doctrines or teachings of religion**:

Doubt is the opposite of faith! I’ve heard priests state problems, or state hard to explain…

Even the apostles before receiving the Holy Spirit asked Jesus to increase their faith, they didn’t doubt they prayed"

Luk 17:5 ¶ And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith

  I heard a priest one time at a' Life in the Spirit' seminar as a speaker state, "The problem with infant baptism is..." I really couldn't believe my ears, I respectfully waited at the end, and pulled him aside and asked A problem with infant baptism?? That would be a Protestant statement.. in his explanation he flubbed around, suggesting he knew he was speaking to a Catholic community.  Which really didn't help at all, thirty people left there that night thinking there were problems with infant baptism.  Was it fair to the people there? NOt at all.  He could have said I don't understand infant baptisms and left it as that, because as a priest he has to answer not only to the Pastor, Bishop, Pope, Mary, Jesus Christ and God in the end, more acutely than the rest of us.

Anytime I hear something I can’t quite believe what I heard, I ask! How, where did you come to that? Show me the reference, teaching… and then I investigate.

God bless,
John

 

[Catholic90]

Yes, John, priests can have doubts, fears, and ‘dry spells’, even as priests.

Afterall, priests are humans, aren’t they?!? They are not perfect. They can and do sin.

Our now retired priest is about as holy of a man as they come. He once confided to my husband and me that several times throughout his life, he had periods of doubt. They were usually at crossroads in his life. He always managed to stay on the path, and he said everytime he suffered through those doubts and the questioning, he ultimately grew stronger, BUT he still had to suffer through the doubts.

Some of the doubts were when several of his family members tragically died. Another was when he was stricken with a debilitating disease.

I’m glad that you are so perfect and never doubt anything. You come off as pretty arrogant.

 

[peary1]

Mary was born without the original stain of sin.

God did this because He knew one day that she would bear His son, Lord Jesus, and He must come into this world into a perfect, untainted womb…right?

Right.

Angel comes to Mary and says, ‘Behold Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee…’ tells her of Gods plans…and she says, ‘Let it be so’.

But- we have free will. What if she had said no?

**Then either God’s Plan would have been thwarted, or, there would have been a “back-up” plan of somesort. **

How could she have been born without original sin, if there is free will?

God’s Will.

Isnt it almost like He didnt give her much choice? Because if she had said no, what would have happened?? Would she instantly recieve the stain? Or would she continue on without it?? Would He have had to of found another host?

What nonsense are you talking here? You would rather be in sin?

I take that- God is all knowing, and that someone might reply with- 'Well He KNEW that she would say ‘yes’.

Well then how is that free will??? Its more cheating isnt it? Thats like, inside trading! LOL…

God knows in advance what you yourself personally will do in the future. What about YOUR free will, Ms. SmartyPants?

Then again maybe thats why God will always win over Satan…he’s got the inside information…

Appears so.

 

[John_oxios]

Yes, John, priests can have doubts, fears, and ‘dry spells’, even as priests.

Afterall, priests are humans, aren’t they?!? They are not perfect. They can and do sin.

Our now retired priest is about as holy of a man as they come. He once confided to my husband and me that several times throughout his life, he had periods of doubt. They were usually at crossroads in his life. He always managed to stay on the path, and he said everytime he suffered through those doubts and the questioning, he ultimately grew stronger, BUT he still had to suffer through the doubts.

Some of the doubts were when several of his family members tragically died. Another was when he was stricken with a debilitating disease.

I’m glad that you are so perfect and never doubt anything. You come off as pretty arrogant.

 Hey the church is made up of Saints and sinners, no man is perfect... but in the Greek.. the word translated biblically as 'perfect' doesn't mean 'perfect' it means matured.. how do we mature? by learning life experiences mainly from our mistakes, wisdom is a gift of God usually it comes with age.

We’re talking different doubts,
There is one thing about going through periods of life when you don’t feel God, even mother Teresa confessed to a ten yr period called the ‘Dark Night of the Soul’ Did you hear her go around publicly expressing her doubt? going through a process of questioning one’s faith… doesn’t give that Priest the right to express his doubt as a teaching or proclamation to the congregation, that’s why even priests have Priests they can go too.

I no Longer doubt or talk against Catholic teachings, If I can’t understand it, then I pray for understanding… I don’t go out and preach against it. 2000 yrs of the most intelligent, , and spiritual men guided by God, the Holy Spirit and Christ… i.e. St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, John of the Cross, all the Bishops, Yes, I can sit back and say I don’t have what they, and their teachings i may not understand , but is that a reason to doubt my faith?
Mysticism is the knowledge of God through experience… thirty-six yrs. of my life I didn’t see God working in my life. Then I began to seek him everywhere but the Catholic Church Only to realize, after some 23 yrs a lapsed Catholic, that All the obstacles that kept me from God had now become guideposts that led me to Him, and That through 10yrs of studying the bible I came to the knowledge and understanding that The RC Church is the Church that Jesus Christ established through the Apostles. I no longer doubt the Church, i no longer doubt God, that’s my experience, I do at times doubt my worthiness. Do I doubt the Church, no. Do I doubt God, NO! Do I understand His way, no
Are we allowed to shake our fist at him and question Him when we have a rift with him, sure he welcomes it
God says to Isaiah in Isa 1:18, ‘Come let us argue it out’
Job did and and in Job 38, God answers him… I’ve seen this chapter subtitled 'The absurdity of the creature critic of me the Creator’

38:4, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the Earth.’

God doesn’t need or want our counsel, he just wants us to return the love He has for us, with love.

If you doubt your religion look up a few Mystics, they write about they’re experiences with God, they speak a different language of theology and doctrine. They speak what best can be called religious poetry, a language f symbolism and imagery and feeling, ordinary words cannot describe what they are experiencing, So mystics stretch the meanings of words beyond their ordinary meanings.

That is what life in the Church is about stretching ourselves beyond the ordinary.

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Charlotte408;6038891]Mary was born without the original stain of sin.

But- we have free will. What if she had said no?

How could she have been born without original sin, if there is free will?

I take that- God is all knowing, and that someone might reply with- 'Well He KNEW that she would say ‘yes’.

Hello Charlotte,

                    God knew Mary would say yes, because God knew her heart, just like he knows our hearts.

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for the LORD sees not as man sees; man looks on the outward appearance,** but the LORD looks on the heart**.”

Act 15:8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us;

Answer in a nutshell:

Mar 10:27 "Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

Luk 1:37 For with God nothing will be impossible."

God bless,

John

 

[Brendan]

Mary was born without the original stain of sin.

God did this because He knew one day that she would bear His son, Lord Jesus, and He must come into this world into a perfect, untainted womb…right?

Just as a point of theological clarification, it was that Christ MUST come into the world from an unstained womb, it was that it was more FITTING that Christ come in that way.

God is in no way constrained when it come to an act which is not evil. God certainly could have chosen to come into the womb from the womb of the most notoruous hooker in Jerusalem. It would not have been a matter of evil for Him to be born in that way.

But it was more FITTING for Him to be born of the spotless, untouched Tabernacle.

 

[Brendan]

I take that- God is all knowing, and that someone might reply with- 'Well He KNEW that she would say ‘yes’.

Well then how is that free will??? Its more cheating isnt it? Thats like, inside trading! LOL…

Foreknowledge does not contradict Free Will.

If I KNEW that my 2 year old would come running to the door when I came home from work, does that mean that my 2 year old lacks free will? Would it mean that I forced my daughter to come running to me instead of her CHOOSING to come running to me?

The analogy is flawed in that in my human knowledge, I might not know all the circumstances that might impact her running to me. She could be having a nap, or off on a play date with the neighbors that I forgot about.

But an omniscient being like God would not be bound by the limitations, would He? He would know about the nap, and would not have forgotten about the playdate.

So the analogy would be even more true for an omniscent being. Foreknowledge does not exclude Free Will.

 

[Charlotte408]

your right, all things i hadnt thunk about

 

[Jerok]

Try to think as Mary as the New Eve. I think a poster said this before, but it’s worth clarifying.

Eve was without original sin, but she said “No” to God.

Mary was without original sin, but she said “Yes” to God. Because of this “Yes” Jesus became incarnate.

I suppose God could have asked 3 other ‘Marys’ before and they all said no and noone ever wrote anything about it… lol. Almost certainly not, considering He didn’t NEED to ask anyone else, as His plan was centered around this humble virgin mother who said Yes.

Great questions, and I’m sure you aren’t satisfied yet… just know that many things COULD have happened… Mary could have said no… Eve could have said yes… but this one did.

 

[Jacafamala]

This is why Mary is called, “our only hope” and “our solitary boast”, because she always, always did the will of God. Yes, she was born without the stain of original sin and yes she was given special graces. And yes she could’ve squandered those graces, but she never did.

And at the same time, she was the humblest of all creatures because she knew that everything she’d been given, all the graces were from God. This is all part of why she’s so amazing. Mary provides us with the perfect example of all a Christian should be. She is our mother and our role model.