On Mary: What is the earliest reference to Mary devotion you know of?

[mesl4]

I’m a non-Catholic Christian, and leading towards Catholicism, but having a really hard time w/the Mary devotion. I’m reading “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn, and trying to understand the history behind it. As a Protestant, we respect, and honor Mary, as we would any of the apostles, or prophets, or holy ones of God, but we do not devote much attention to her. Our sole focus is God/the trinity. I would like to know when this devotion/praying to the saints began. I don’t see it in the Early Church Father readings I’ve done so far. I’m open to knowing more, thank you

 

[FCEGM]

I’m a non-Catholic Christian, and leading towards Catholicism, but having a really hard time w/the Mary devotion. I’m reading “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn, and trying to understand the history behind it. As a Protestant, we respect, and honor Mary, as we would any of the apostles, or prophets, or holy ones of God, but we do not devote much attention to her. Our sole focus is God/the trinity. I would like to know when this devotion/praying to the saints began. I don’t see it in the Early Church Father readings I’ve done so far. I’m open to knowing more, thank you

mes, here are some articles from the CA library that give quotes from the Fathers:

catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp

catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp

catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

 

[meh56]

I think the prayer that starts …We fly to thy patronage oh Holy Mother of God…i think that was written by the Coptics in the second century.

You always here the protestants ask when we started believing in the IMACULATE CONCEPTION AND the Assumption?

I responed with …The question should be…When did you stop believing in them?

 

[NotWorthy]

I think it started in Luke, by the Angel Gabriel!
“Hail, Full of Grace”. That was not a greeting a superior gives to an inferior!

 

[Zenas]

I think it started in Luke, by the Angel Gabriel!
“Hail, Full of Grace”. That was not a greeting a superior gives to an inferior!

O come now, you know what the O.P. meant. The fact is the antenicene fathers said relatively little about Mary, but they were not completely silent. For example, Irenaeus portrays Mary as the New Eve in Against Heresies, Ch. XX:

In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.” But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, “instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.” For the Lord, having been born “the First-begotten of the dead,” and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

Justin Martyr has something similar in Dialogue With Trypho.

 

[jimmy]

O come now, you know what the O.P. meant. The fact is the antenicene fathers said relatively little about Mary, but they were not completely silent. For example, Irenaeus portrays Mary as the New Eve in Against Heresies, Ch. XX: Justin Martyr has something similar in Dialogue With Trypho.

Yes, this is enshrined in many of the fathers writings including Origen, Tertullian, Justin, Irenaeus, Ephrem, Athanasius and every subsequent author pretty much.

Many fathers speak of her as the ark of the new covenant including St. Ephrem and St. Athanasius.

Devotions to saints started early as can be seen in the martyrdom of Polycarp which mentions the people taking the bones of Polycarp for the sake of devotion. And every year on that day they held a feast.

By the fourth century the opinions of Mary are pretty strong. You can see it in pretty much all the fathers from then on.

 

[allhers]

THE VIRGIN MARY AS THE ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT

“Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of God dwells. She is ‘the dwelling of God …] with men.’” CCC#2676

God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and then indwelled the Ark. The Ark became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Exodus 40:34-35]

God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and then indwelled Mary. At that time Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Luke 1:35].

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Mary%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm

 

[NotWorthy]

O come now, you know what the O.P. meant. The fact is the antenicene fathers said relatively little about Mary, but they were not completely silent. For example, Irenaeus portrays Mary as the New Eve in Against Heresies, Ch. XX: Justin Martyr has something similar in Dialogue With Trypho.

Yes, I do know what the OP meant, and I do believe it begins with the words, “Hail, Full of Grace”. I stand by that proclamation.

And you are correct that Justin Martyr wrote of Mary as being the New Eve, which would place it at least as early as circa 150AD. It could be earlier than that, since we only have a fraction of the early documents.

 

[peary]

I’m a non-Catholic Christian, and leading towards Catholicism, but having a really hard time w/the Mary devotion. I’m reading “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn, and trying to understand the history behind it. As a Protestant, we respect, and honor Mary, as we would any of the apostles, or prophets, or holy ones of God, but we do not devote much attention to her. Our sole focus is God/the trinity. I would like to know when this devotion/praying to the saints began. I don’t see it in the Early Church Father readings I’ve done so far. I’m open to knowing more, thank you

**The Council of Ephesus in 431 formally sanctioned devotion to the Virgin as Theotokos, Mother of God, (more accurately translated as God bearer) allowing the creation of icons bearing the images of the Virgin and Child. Devotion to Mary was, however, already widespread by this point.

The earliest known Marian prayer is Beneath Thy Protection, dating from late 2nd century. A papyrus dated to c. 250 containing the prayer in Greek was discovered in Egypt in 1917, and is the earliest known reference to the title Theotokos, confirmed by the Council of Ephesus in 431:

*Beneath your compassion, We take refuge, O Mother of God: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure, only blessed one. *

The earliest reference to a church built in honor of Mary is Our Lady of Zaragosa, around 40 or 41 AD (seven or eight years after the Resurrection), in Spain. so, honor and devotion to the Mother of Jesus actually goes back to the very beginnings of the Church.**

 

[NotWorthy]

***Beneath your compassion, We take refuge, O Mother of God: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure, only blessed one. ***This prayer is present in “The Memorare” today. I say it every morning.

The earliest reference to a church built in honor of Mary is Our Lady of Zaragosa, around 40 or 41 AD (seven or eight years after the Resurrection), in Spain. so, honor and devotion to the Mother of Jesus actually goes back to the very beginnings of the Church.

I’m not sure if this is true. (the date, that is). There were no missionaries in Europe at this time. Paul is the first to cross over into Europe, and I believe it would be another 10 years. Can you please verify the date?

Other than that, this is great information to know. I didn’t know that portions of the Memorare went back so far!

 

[peary]

This prayer is present in “The Memorare” today. I say it every morning.

I’m not sure if this is true. (the date, that is). There were no missionaries in Europe at this time. Paul is the first to cross over into Europe, and I believe it would be another 10 years. Can you please verify the date?

Other than that, this is great information to know. I didn’t know that portions of the Memorare went back so far!

**Nuestra Señora Del Pilar

“Our Lady of the Pillar”, a celebrated church and shrine, at Saragossa, Spain, containing a miraculous image of the Blessed Virgin, which is the object of very special devotion throughout the kingdom. The image, which is placed on a marble pillar, whence the name of the church, was crowned in 1905 with a crown designed by the Marquis of Griñi, and valued at 450,000 pesetas (£18,750, 1910). The present spacious church in Baroque style was begun in 1681. According to an ancient Spanish tradition, given in the Roman Breviary (for 12 October, Ad. mat., lect. vi), the original shrine was built by St. James the Apostle at the wish of the Blessed Virgin, who appeared to him as he was praying by the banks of the Ebro at Saragossa. There has been much discussion as the truth of the tradition. Mgr L. Duchesne denies, as did Baronius, the coming of St. James to Spain, and reproduces arguments founded on the writings of the Twelfth Ecumenical Council, discovered by Loaisa, but rejected as spurious by the Jesuit academician Fita and many others. Those who defend the tradition adduce the testimony of St. Jerome (PL XXIV, 373) and that of the Mozarabic Office. The oldest written testimony of devotion to the Blessed Virgin in Saragossa usually quoted is that of Pedro Librana (1155). Fita has published data of two Christian tombs at Saragossa, dating from Roman days, on which the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is represented. **

 

[NotWorthy]

Nuestra Señora Del Pilar

“Our Lady of the Pillar”, a celebrated church and shrine, at Saragossa, Spain, containing a miraculous image of the Blessed Virgin, which is the object of very special devotion throughout the kingdom. The image, which is placed on a marble pillar, whence the name of the church, was crowned in 1905 with a crown designed by the Marquis of Griñi, and valued at 450,000 pesetas (£18,750, 1910). The present spacious church in Baroque style was begun in 1681. According to an ancient Spanish tradition, given in the Roman Breviary (for 12 October, Ad. mat., lect. vi), the original shrine was built by St. James the Apostle at the wish of the Blessed Virgin, who appeared to him as he was praying by the banks of the Ebro at Saragossa. There has been much discussion as the truth of the tradition. Mgr L. Duchesne denies, as did Baronius, the coming of St. James to Spain, and reproduces arguments founded on the writings of the Twelfth Ecumenical Council, discovered by Loaisa, but rejected as spurious by the Jesuit academician Fita and many others. Those who defend the tradition adduce the testimony of St. Jerome (PL XXIV, 373) and that of the Mozarabic Office. The oldest written testimony of devotion to the Blessed Virgin in Saragossa usually quoted is that of Pedro Librana (1155). Fita has published data of two Christian tombs at Saragossa, dating from Roman days, on which the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is represented.

Thanks for the information. Do you have any further info on the date? Catholic tradition estimates Mary’s death (or her time on this earth) around the early 50’s. Mary ended her mortal life around age 72, and she was roughly 15 when Jesus was born (circa 3AD).

I also assume St. James is James the Lesser, as opposed to James, son of Zebedee who would have already been dead by this time.

 

[Michael_G]

I’m a non-Catholic Christian, and leading towards Catholicism, but having a really hard time w/the Mary devotion. I’m reading “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn, and trying to understand the history behind it. As a Protestant, we respect, and honor Mary, as we would any of the apostles, or prophets, or holy ones of God, but we do not devote much attention to her. Our sole focus is God/the trinity. I would like to know when this devotion/praying to the saints began. I don’t see it in the Early Church Father readings I’ve done so far. I’m open to knowing more, thank you

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed." Sub Tuum Praesidium**, Egypt 3rd Century, From Rylands Papyrus,in MCF,79**
"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness**, O dwelling place of God the Word?** To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."** Athanasius**, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

Hippolytus
** His advent by the spotless** and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, [of baptism]" (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

**Prayers from the Liturgy of Saint James
**Commemorating our all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, the God-Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary,60 and all the saints that have been well-pleasing to Thee since the world began, let us devote ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, to Christ our God:

 

[Christy74]

I’m a non-Catholic Christian, and leading towards Catholicism, but having a really hard time w/the Mary devotion. I’m reading “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn, and trying to understand the history behind it. As a Protestant, we respect, and honor Mary, as we would any of the apostles, or prophets, or holy ones of God, but we do not devote much attention to her. Our sole focus is God/the trinity. I would like to know when this devotion/praying to the saints began. I don’t see it in the Early Church Father readings I’ve done so far. I’m open to knowing more, thank you

The oldest is when she was still alive on earth. The Apostle Luke painted an Icon of her which was venerated by the Church which had just been created by Christ and his Apostles.

 

[LilyM]

This prayer is present in “The Memorare” today. I say it every morning.

I’m not sure if this is true. (the date, that is). There were no missionaries in Europe at this time. Paul is the first to cross over into Europe, and I believe it would be another 10 years. Can you please verify the date?

Other than that, this is great information to know. I didn’t know that portions of the Memorare went back so far!

The prayer, called the ‘Sub Tuum Praesidium’, is a prayer in its own right said to this day by many Catholics and in many catholic prayer books. Although it expresses similar sentiments to the Memorare, the Memorare is in fact a separate prayer, composed by St Bernard a good millenium (give or take) later.

 

[NotWorthy]

The prayer, called the ‘Sub Tuum Praesidium’, is a prayer in its own right said to this day by many Catholics and in many catholic prayer books. Although it expresses similar sentiments to the Memorare, the Memorare is in fact a separate prayer, composed by St Bernard a good millenium (give or take) later.

Wonderful, I learned something! My day is now complete!

Thanks!

 

[LilyM]

Wonderful, I learned something! My day is now complete!

Thanks!

And I’ve taught something, so likewise :tiphat:

 

[SFH]

While there are certainly earlier references to devotion to the Blessed Virgin, check out St. Ambrose’s Book on Virginity.

 

[mesl4]

The oldest is when she was still alive on earth. The Apostle Luke painted an Icon of her which was venerated by the Church which had just been created by Christ and his Apostles.

Do you have the resource on this info? That’d be great!

 

[mesl4]

**

*Beneath your compassion, We take refuge, O Mother of God: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure, only blessed one. ***.

I see all the honor due to Mary, but doesn’t the above passage, and those similar prayers/devotions seem a little blasphemous? Does this trouble anyone? “Only pure, only blessed one”?! What about Jesus!? He’s the only pure, only blessed one.

Also, why would Mary have needed grace if she were sinless. The more sin, the more grace given, right? That’s what the Bible teaches.So why would we assume that by Gabriel’s announcing her “full of grace” that that would mean she was sinless? I would think that just means God is letting go her due punishment (like he does to all of those he forgives and pours out his grace upon).

Also, I’ve heard the argument that it meant she was preserved from the stain of original sin. But that doesn’t mean of actual sin, right? The immaculate conception might free her from the inherited sin, but she would still have a human soul/spirit that would potentially sin like anyone else, right? Please explain…and I mean no disrespect, I’m just trying to make the right decision here on if I should convert, but this is huge. Maybe all those apparitions of her were Satan’s tricks to get people to focus on her, or on prayers, or works/wearing medals, etc, rather than focusing on Him and his amazing sacrifice that gives us eternal life and freedom from sin/guilt. Satan would like the attention getting diverted from God it would seem.