On Mary

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Equites_Christi

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Now I realize some of the things I say may make me sound like a Protestant, I would like to emphasize that I am not and I will subject to the Church in all things.

For a while now I have been having some trouble with how I think of Mary. I accept that she is above the saints. I accept that she is the most perfect purely human being to ever exist, and that her submission to God enabled us to be saved by His son. But I just do not see what other people see.

The songs and prayers written about her are a little alarming to me. I have never seen anything nearly so flowery or so praising or so devotedly heartfelt written about Christ, and this saddens me a little. I understand that a devotion to Mary is supposed to ultimately be a devotion to Christ, but I personally have trouble grasping that. In fact - and I know this is silly - sometimes I feel like all the attention and energy heaped on her goes to her head; it makes her seem so high and mighty that I feel she’s downright unapproachable. Instead of to a saint, I would love the idea of having a personal devotion to Christ, but I am made to feel that if I don’t have a special devotion to Mary that I am missing out on something. Why? Is it necessary in order to experience the fullness of the Catholic faith? If so…well, I almost feel like that’s not fair.

I am not trying to contend with anyone, just to communicate. Advice is very welcome.
 
It would seem as though you only have issues with the devotional side of things, and not theological. Am I correct in assuming this? Have you taken the time to read any of the books on the matter?
 
Equites_Christi said:
I understand that a devotion to Mary is supposed to ultimately be a devotion to Christ, but I personally have trouble grasping that. In fact - and I know this is silly - sometimes I feel like all the attention and energy heaped on her goes to her head; it makes her seem so high and mighty that I feel she’s downright unapproachable. Instead of to a saint, I would love the idea of having a personal devotion to Christ, but I am made to feel that if I don’t have a special devotion to Mary that I am missing out on something. Why? Is it necessary in order to experience the fullness of the Catholic faith? If so…well, I almost feel like that’s not fair.

I am not trying to contend with anyone, just to communicate. Advice is very welcome.
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Here is my advice! :o Think of God’s two greatest commandments. Love God. Love neighbor. As a spurious work attributed to St. John Chrysostom says: “But who loves man is as who loves God; for man is God’s image, wherein God is loved, as a King is honoured in his statue. For this cause this commandment is said to be like the first.”

The point is, giving attention to one of God’s people IS the way to love God. The two commandments are not separate, but they are “like” each other. To love God is to love God, and to love neighbor is to love God.

Now, extend that to Mary, the most blessed woman God chose in His infinite providence to deliver His only Son to the world. If someone is authentically venerating her virtue, she is not going to become “arrogant” or anything like that because she understands fully that to love a neighbor is to love God. If someone were to inappropriately venerate her or go so far as to give her the worship due to God alone, then the emotion she would most likely resemble is weeping.

As for you not encountering flightily worded texts on Jesus like you do with Mary, it may be due to a couple things. One is that men (and probably women) tend to write more poetically about women in general, it seems to me. :o

Another, is that Marian devotion is popular in our culture, especially in light of the greater frequency in her apparitions in the last 150 years, such as at Lourdes or Fatima. These kinds of things spark particular devotions to the faith. Even the U.S. had what I think was the first U.S. approved apparition in Wisconsin not long ago.

Third, is perhaps you just have not come across as much text on Christ-direct theology! :o It is reasonable to posit that the Church over the centuries first focused more on Christ (not to the exclusion of Marian or other theology) and then on to other figures and theology that lead us to him.

For example, see early works on Christ like
On the Incarnation of the Word, St. Athanasius
A Poem on the Passion of the Lord (pseudo-Lactantius)
Fragments from the Homily on the Cross and Passion of Christ, Methodius
Office of the Passion, St. Francis of Assisi
Spiritual Canticle of the Soul and the Bridegroom of Christ, St. John of the Cross

One I have personally read that is very awe-inspiring regarding Christ, is St. Padre Pio’s letters, compiled in the book Secrets of a Soul. Those letters are from the 20th century. I much recommend this. :o
 
Yes, I would say that is correct. I would be willing to bet that the devotional things I don’t understand stem from theological things I’ve missed.

No, unfortunately I have not read any material on the matter.
 
Equites_Christi said:
Now I realize some of the things I say may make me sound like a Protestant, I would like to emphasize that I am not and I will subject to the Church in all things.
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You are right. Devotion is devotion.
Maybe it has something to do with gender. The masculine figure of Jesus Christ seem to have more power than the feminine figure of Mary.
John Paul II, who lost his mother when young, had his motto to Mary: “Totus Tuus”, wholy Yours. I lost my mother when I was a baby and I have trouble with Mary, for I never knew what a mother is. So, 2 atitudes in the same circumstance.
Jesus wants His Mother to be the Mediatrix of All Graces. If He wants us to love Mary, because She is His Mother, and when you love His Mother you love Him, it is all right the devotion to Mary.
I do not see anything wrong with your devotion to Jesus.
The only problem with your way of thinking is “comparison”.
I use to say that comparison is the devil. You have a good car but when your neighbor changes car for a much better one, then your car does not seem so good. And so on and on and on. We are in a group of 10 people. If I give you 1 million dolars you kiss me and hug me and say I am the best man in the world. Then, if I give 10 million dollars to each one of the others, I rapidly pass from being an angel to being the devil.
Why? Comparison.
If you erase and avoid and simply do not make any comparison between the devotions to Jesus and Mary, you will see that everything will be all right.
Oh ! Yes, You do not seem protestant at all.
 
“I have never seen anything nearly so flowery or so praising or so devotedly heartfelt written about Christ, and this saddens me a little” …

THREE HYMNS TO JESUS FROM THE RACCOLTA

(Jesus, Sweet Memory)

Jesus, the very thought of Thee
With sweetness fills the breast!
Yet sweeter far Thy face to see
And in Thy presence rest.

No voice can sing, no heart can frame,
Nor can the memory find,
A sweeter sound than Jesus’ name,
The Saviour of mankind.

O hope of every contrite heart!
O joy of all the meek!
To those who fall, how kind Thou art!
How good to those who seek!

But what to those who find? Ah! this
Nor tongue nor pen can show -
The love of Jesus, what it is,
None but His loved ones know.

Jesus! our only hope be Thou,
As Thou our prize shalt be;
In Thee be all our glory now,
And through eternity. Amen.

(Jesus, Beauty of the Angels)

O Jesus, Thou the beauty art
Of Angel worlds above!
Thy name is music to the heart,
Enchanting it with love!

Celestial sweetness unalloyed!
Who eat Thee hunger still,
Who drink of Thee still feel a void
Which naught but Thou can fill!

O my sweet Jesus! hear the sighs
Which unto Thee I send!
To Thee my inmost spirit cries,
My being’s hope and end!

Stay with us, Lord, and with Thy light
Illume the soul’s abyss;
Scatter the darkness of our night
And fill the world with bliss.

O Jesu! spotless Virgin flower!
Our life and joy! to Thee
Be praise, beatitude and power,
Through all eternity! Amen.

(O Jesus, King Most Wonderful)

O Jesus, King most wonderful!
Thou Conqueror renowned!
Thou Sweetness most ineffable!
In whom all joys are found!

When once Thou visitest the heart,
Then truth begins to shine;
Then earthly vanities depart;
Then kindles love Divine.

O Jesu! Light of all below!
Thou Fount of life and fire!
Surpassing all the joys we know,
And all we can desire.

May every heart confess Thy name,
And ever Thee adore;
And seeking Thee, itself inflame
To seek Thee more and more.

Thee may our tongues for ever bless;
Thee may we love alone;
And ever in our lives express
The image of Thine Own. Amen.
 
Equites_Christi said:
The songs and prayers written about her are a little alarming to me. I have never seen anything nearly so flowery or so praising or so devotedly heartfelt written about Christ, and this saddens me a little. I understand that a devotion to Mary is supposed to ultimately be a devotion to Christ, but I personally have trouble grasping that. In fact - and I know this is silly - sometimes I feel like all the attention and energy heaped on her goes to her head; it makes her seem so high and mighty that I feel she’s downright unapproachable.
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I had similar feelings of anxiety about paying “too much attention” to Our Lady and the Saints when I converted. Ultimately, God found a way to introduce me to the Communion of Saints and to nurture in me a personal relationship to several of them, and I am a better person for it.

Keep in mind that Jesus IS God. Next time you go to Mass, take note of every time God is mentioned. The Psalms are very “flowery,” “praising” and certainly “devotedly heartfelt” and they are prayed at every Mass. Besides the Responsorial Psalm, all of the songs in the typical GIA hymnal are taken from the Psalms.
Instead of to a saint, I would love the idea of having a personal devotion to Christ, …
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Two words: DIVINE MERCY. The Divine Mercy devotion is exactly meant for that purpose.
but I am made to feel that if I don’t have a special devotion to Mary that I am missing out on something. Why? Is it necessary in order to experience the fullness of the Catholic faith? If so…well, I almost feel like that’s not fair.
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If you keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus, then Mary is your Mother. (Rev. 12:17) It would be strange for you to live in a family in which you always saw your father (God the Father) and your brother (God the Son) but never your mother (Mary). In fact, your brother and your father, who love your mother, would want to know why you never spent any time with her and would be quite concerned about you in that case.
 
Equites_Christi said:
Now I realize some of the things I say may make me sound like a Protestant, I would like to emphasize that I am not and I will subject to the Church in all things.

For a while now I have been having some trouble with how I think of Mary. I accept that she is above the saints. I accept that she is the most perfect purely human being to ever exist, and that her submission to God enabled us to be saved by His son. But I just do not see what other people see.

The songs and prayers written about her are a little alarming to me. I have never seen anything nearly so flowery or so praising or so devotedly heartfelt written about Christ, and this saddens me a little. I understand that a devotion to Mary is supposed to ultimately be a devotion to Christ, but I personally have trouble grasping that. In fact - and I know this is silly - sometimes I feel like all the attention and energy heaped on her goes to her head; it makes her seem so high and mighty that I feel she’s downright unapproachable. Instead of to a saint, I would love the idea of having a personal devotion to Christ, but I am made to feel that if I don’t have a special devotion to Mary that I am missing out on something. Why? Is it necessary in order to experience the fullness of the Catholic faith? If so…well, I almost feel like that’s not fair.

I am not trying to contend with anyone, just to communicate. Advice is very welcome.
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If I may suggest, I think the confusion might be due to a difference in the culture today.

In the time not so long ago, and even today in most parts of the East, when a mother is honored, it actually does not take away from the son. In fact, at times the mother is honored because of the greatness of the Son.

So when we honor Mary, we actually honor Christ.

Unfortunately the current world, this is hard to see. Usually many do not even have much of a closer relationship with their parents and them with their children.

Sometimes many non-Catholics object that the honor to Mary is something even she wouldn’t want. But what they forget is that the honor given to her is by Christ. Christ wants her to be honored. So we obey his command and in honoring his mother, we yet again honor Christ.

Finally, it must also be noted that Mary was given to you as your spiritual Mother and Queen of heaven. Like any good Mother and Queen, she cares for your salvation and needs of all her children. Now an interesting exercise might be to find out why we actually give her the title Queen of heaven.

Another title you should try to understand is Mary, ark of the covenant.

In understanding these two terms, I think you might come to a greater appreciation of who Mary is and why she is so important in the life of a Catholic.

The following might help in your investigation and study.

salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/queen_a_biblical_introduction_to_mary

salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/queen_wedding_at_cana_garden_in_eden

salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/queen_the_ark_of_the_new_covenant

salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/queen_mother_crowned_in_glory

Some more if you have the time

salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/queen_the_all_holy_mother_of_god

salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/queen_the_queen_assumed_into_heaven
 
Cat_Herder said:
If you keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus, then Mary is your Mother. (Rev. 12:17) It would be strange for you to live in a family in which you always saw your father (God the Father) and your brother (God the Son) but never your mother (Mary). In fact, your brother and your father, who love your mother, would want to know why you never spent any time with her and would be quite concerned about you in that case.
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Excellent point CH. As a former evangelical protestant, the adoration of Mary was, when I converted, a stumbling block. I continue to struggle during conversations with my wife, who has not converted, to explain the significance of Mary. Certain passages are on point and very helpful; namely, John 2:1-5 (Jesus explains that his time had not yet come but Mary interceded), and Luke 1:28 (the angels salute Mary, i.e., “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with thee…”). I figure if the Son of God can respond to Mary’s requests when he’s not yet ready to perform miracles, and if the angels in heaven can salute Mary - who am I to disregard her significance?
 
A book that helped put things into perspective for me, although the language is flowery because of the century in which it was written, is “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus de Liguori. It gives many scriptural references for our devotion to Mary and explains her privileges and virtues quite nicely.

Another aspect about devotion to Mary compared to Jesus is that Jesus is not only our Savior, he is also our judge. One cannot approach a judge without feeling some kind of awe, and when that judge is also divine and will determine your ultimate fate, the fear factor goes up. Loving Jesus is a two-edged sword, after all, for he is not only all love but all truth and must be answered to as the source of truth.

Mary OTOH, is all mercy. She judges no one–that’s not her function. She’s not divine, but simply human like us. No words of praise ever “go to her head”. When St. Elizabeth praised Mary for her faith, she gave all the glory to God alone. No one filled with God’s grace could do anything else. We see her through eyes tainted by sin and a fallen nature. She didn’t have those limitations on her will and her love. As the Second Eve she was made perfect and through God’s grace, which we can all draw from, she not only remained without sin but grew in wisdom and holiness, conforming her will to God’s at every turn. So, we go to her with our petitions so she will take from them all our self interest and present them to her Son, as she would present her own petitions, in full conformity to God’s will.

I learned all these things from Sts. Alphonsus and Louis Marie de Montfort (although his book, “True Devotion to Mary” is not for those with little theological knowledge of Marian doctrine/dogma, so I wouldn’t recommend it until you’ve read the Catechism and other reliable theological works first).

Jesus and Mary are not in competition for our devotion. When we praise Mary we are praising God for everything she is and did she gained from God and living by faith in the grace of God. She is our perfect example, mother in the faith and intercessor. Going to her with our needs is like going to a specialist in souls–all her prayers are good for us and all her love directed towards bringing us closer to her Son, Our Lord and her Lord, our God and her God.
 
Equites_Christi said:
Now I realize some of the things I say may make me sound like a Protestant, I would like to emphasize that I am not and I will subject to the Church in all things.
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No, you don’t sound like a Protestant at all. Most of us would not claim to be subject to the church in all things; rather we would claim (at least in principle) to be subject to Christ in all things, and that the difference between those two subjections is huge.
For a while now I have been having some trouble with how I think of Mary. I accept that she is above the saints. I accept that she is the most perfect purely human being to ever exist, and that her submission to God enabled us to be saved by His son.
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Again, you’re in no danger of being misidentified as a Protestant.
The songs and prayers written about her are a little alarming to me. I have never seen anything nearly so flowery or so praising or so devotedly heartfelt written about Christ, and this saddens me a little.
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This kind of critique of some aspect of Marian devotion is very Catholic. Ever read Maralis Cultis (1974 Vatican document)? There you will find plenty of guidelines that will help you distinguish true from aberrant forms of devotion. If you read between the lines a bit, I think you’ll find that the excessive “flowery” language is basically considered no longer appropriate, but rather to be understood as a “sociocultural” phenomenon within its own historical and cultural milieu. (That of course is all Vatican code for “the Protestants are right to be put-off by some of the excesses, but wrong to have jettisoned Marian devotion altogether”).
I understand that a devotion to Mary is supposed to ultimately be a devotion to Christ, but I personally have trouble grasping that. In fact - and I know this is silly - sometimes I feel like all the attention and energy heaped on her goes to her head; it makes her seem so high and mighty that I feel she’s downright unapproachable.
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Perhaps the pendulum has swung. For many believe that devotion to Mary developed in a time when Christ was presented as “unapproachable.” My own position is that of John the Baptist: “He must increase, I must decrease.” And I think the Mary we find in the scriptures would say the same thing.
Instead of to a saint, I would love the idea of having a personal devotion to Christ, but I am made to feel that if I don’t have a special devotion to Mary that I am missing out on something. Why? Is it necessary in order to experience the fullness of the Catholic faith? If so…well, I almost feel like that’s not fair.
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Careful now. This does sound a bit Protestant…
I am not trying to contend with anyone, just to communicate. Advice is very welcome.
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Advice: He must increase, we must decrease.
 
Miguel_Sastre said:
No, you don’t sound like a Protestant at all. Most of us would not claim to be subject to the church in all things; rather we would claim (at least in principle) to be subject to Christ in all things, and that the difference between those two subjections is huge.
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In your opinion, maybe, but that is only because you do not understand who the Church actually is.
 
You need not pray to Mary.

If you want to praise our Lord , go for it. Pray your heart out with mighty love from your heart. Tell Him He is King, you are His.

That is what the psalms are all about.David went what we would say today, overboard, in praise to God and so much of them spoke prophetically to the Coming Messiah and more. That is why David was called by God as a “man after His own Heart”.
he even got in trouble with his wife because he was dancing and tumbling in joy before a prosession with the Ark, and he tumbleed and showed off all of his" parts".

Nothing wrong with asking Mary in intercessory prayer for help. While i know that some non-catholics think of this as praying to the dead, I think intercessory prayer is not confined to the living for the living. We are more alive than ever in heaven.

But some people, go way way overboard on Mary. Even Mother Evangelical(EWTN) said so!
 
Doxiemom said:
You need not pray to Mary.

If you want to praise our Lord , go for it. Pray your heart out with mighty love from your heart. Tell Him He is King, you are His.

That is what the psalms are all about.David went what we would say today, overboard, in praise to God and so much of them spoke prophetically to the Coming Messiah and more. That is why David was called by God as a “man after His own Heart”.
he even got in trouble with his wife because he was dancing and tumbling in joy before a prosession with the Ark, and he tumbleed and showed off all of his" parts".

Nothing wrong with asking Mary in intercessory prayer for help. While i know that some non-catholics think of this as praying to the dead, I think intercessory prayer is not confined to the living for the living. We are more alive than ever in heaven.

But some people, go way way overboard on Mary. Even Mother Evangelical(EWTN) said so!
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When it comes to devotion one man’s overboard is another man’s spiritual bouquet. You cited David being jeered at because he exuberantly danced before the Ark (a symbol of Jesus and Mary, btw). Those who have a deep devotion to Our Lady are not dividing their affections between her and God–it’s their way of praising God for all he gave us through Mary. This is the heart of St. Louis Marie de Montfort’s “True Devotion to Mary”–a great favorite of Bl. John Paul II.

Mother Angelica has a rather pragmatic personality that doesn’t lend itself to overt shows of affection, and she is entitled to her opinions, but I have never seen anyone who had a inordinate amount of love for Mary or any other saint, so my experience hasn’t been hers. Indeed, I have seen far too little affection directed towards Mary since the 1960’s.

Those who love Mary, who truly love her as she ought to be, love Jesus more, and through her. We in our modern society little understand the Eastern sensibility of honoring the child by honoring the mother. We tend to divide people from their families and heritage, but by doing so we miss a large part of what makes someone who he is, even Jesus. If we get to know Mary, we get to know Jesus more intimately than if we set her aside or minimize her part in our salvation (not that you are saying we should do that–I’m just saying. 😉)
 
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