On reconciling Eastern and Western calendars

[SonCatcher]

I am opening this thread so another doesn’t get derailed. Generally, the discussion id about reconciling the Julian and Gregorian calendars. The following posts started the conversation in the other thread:

I think that’s known as the “Revised Julian Calendar” (used, IIRC, by the Greek Orthodox among others) and is a hybrid. It uses the Gregorian Calendar for fixed observances, but the standard Julian reckoning for movable ones.

Won’t that eventually make Pascha crash into the Nativity? (it’s a few dozen millennia out, but still)

I suppose that would eventually be possible. The revised Julian calendar is in many ways a failure. Among its problems is that on certain years when Easter falls late in the year, the Apostle’s Fast is completely eliminated (as it is this year). There is nothing technically wrong with doing it this way, as it is in complete accordance with the way Nicaea declared that Easter should be calculated (which, along with a condemnation of the Gregorian Calendar which was made several centuries ago, is the most major stumbling block to adopting a more accurate paschalion than one based on the Julian Calendar), and churches are free to set their own calendars and fasting practices. But at the same time, I think many are aware that the Revised Julian Calendar is no good solution at all.

Why won’t the Orthodox consider the Gregorian calendar? Is there anything wrong with it in particular or is it b/c it was formulated by the Roman Pope? And yes looking at the calendar this year the Revised Julain does interfere with the Apostles Fast…and the Gregorian makes it rather long as well heheh what with Western Pascha coming early this year.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Why won’t the Orthodox consider the Gregorian calendar? Is there anything wrong with it in particular or is it b/c it was formulated by the Roman Pope? And yes looking at the calendar this year the Revised Julain does interfere with the Apostles Fast…and the Gregorian makes it rather long as well heheh what with Western Pascha coming early this year.

It is mainly because the method that the council of Nicaea decides should be used to calculate the date of Easter is on the Julian calendar. To change it without a pan-Orthodox council would be unthinkable. Then there is some objection about the timing of Easter relative to passover (Easter, being the completion of passover is supposed to fall after the date of passover) which I’m not really sure I fully understand, because I haven’t delved into it much.

 

[SonCatcher]

It is mainly because the method that the council of Nicaea decides should be used to calculate the date of Easter is on the Julian calendar. To change it without a pan-Orthodox council would be unthinkable. Then there is some objection about the timing of Easter relative to passover (Easter, being the completion of passover is supposed to fall after the date of passover) which I’m not really sure I fully understand, because I haven’t delved into it much.

My understanding about not basing the date of Easter on the date of Passover is that the Jewish community had yet to standardize the way of calculating that date. The council Fathers, rather, determined that the Church was to calculate the date of Easter independently.

If I recall correctly, the council determined two things about the date: that Easter should follow shortly after the vernal equinox but then they also defined the date of the equinox, itself to a date that no longer agrees with the astronomical phenomenon, per the Julian calendar.

I noticed once that in years when the Julian and Gregorian dates for Easter are separate by a month, Passover sometimes is closer to the Julian Easter and other times closer to the Gregorian Easter. I guess we aren’t alone in calendar difficulties.

I agree that, ideally, the calendar should have been adopted by an ecumenical council, since the previous one had been established by one. It is past, now, so it would just require a council to reconcile them. (no simple task, I know)

Could you refer me to the condemnation of the Gregorian calendar?

Thanks.

 

[Vico]

Paschal Full Moons are approximate astronomical full moons using a 19 year cycle. From Alexandria, in the mid-3rd century, Pascha is the first Sunday following the date of the Paschal Full Moon that follows March 20.

The Nicene council decided to calculate Nisan independently of the Jews and set Pascha to the third Sunday of Christian Nisan not the third Sunday in Jewish Nisan.

Oudin’s formula (can use in Excel):

Y = Year
M = (Julian) Pascha Month
D = (Julian) Pascha Day

G = MOD(Y,19)
I = MOD(((19 * G) + 15) , 30)
J = MOD( (Y + TRUNC((Y/4),0) + I) , 7)
L = I - J

M = 3+TRUNC((L+40)/44,0)
D= L + 28 - (31 * TRUNC((M/4),0))
Gregorian Pascha Date add 13 days.

 

[Zekariya]

Paschal Full Moons are approximate astronomical full moons using a 19 year cycle. From Alexandria, in the mid-3rd century, Pascha is the first Sunday following the date of the Paschal Full Moon that follows March 20.

The Nicene council decided to calculate Nisan independently of the Jews and set Pascha to the third Sunday of Christian Nisan not the third Sunday in Jewish Nisan.

Oudin’s formula (can use in Excel):

Y = Year
M = (Julian) Pascha Month
D = (Julian) Pascha Day

G = MOD(Y,19)
I = MOD(((19 * G) + 15) , 30)
J = MOD( (Y + TRUNC((Y/4),0) + I) , 7)
L = I - J

M = 3+TRUNC((L+40)/44,0)
D= L + 28 - (31 * TRUNC((M/4),0))
Gregorian Pascha Date add 13 days.

Are you certain that is isn’t subtract 13 days? The Gregorian Calendar is 13 days faster than the Julian Calendar.

 

[Vico]

Are you certain that is isn’t subtract 13 days? The Gregorian Calendar is 13 days faster than the Julian Calendar.

Here is a calculation from the formulas from my Excel spreadsheet, it is the same time, expressed in two different calendars, so May 5, 2013 is Julian April 22, 2013.
Y=2013 G=18 I=27 J=2 L=25 M=4 D=22 Julian= 4/22/2013 Gregorian= 5/5/2013

 

[Zekariya]

Here is a calculation from the formulas from my Excel spreadsheet, it is the same time, expressed in two different calendars, so May 5, 2013 is Julian April 22, 2013.

    Y=2013       G=18       I=27       J=2       L=25       M=4       D=22       Julian= 4/22/2013       Gregorian=  5/5/2013

Ah, I see now. Thanks.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Roman See is accused of coming up with this Gregorian Calendar on it’s own, but history shows that it was hardly an independent and “western” work. The mathematical skill and scholarship of this calendar was not found in the West, but in the East! The Chaldean and Syriac Churches produced the most learned astronomers - remember the wise men of the Holy Scriptures are Traditionally thought to be Chaldean/Assyrian/Persian as well. The credit actually goes to a retired (deposed illegally) Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church who reconciled with Rome and lived (and died) in the Vatican - His Holiness Patriarch Ignatius Nimat Allah.

syriacstudies.com/AFSS/Syriac_Scholars_and_Writers/Entries/2008/4/13_276.The_Patriarch_Nimat_Allah%281587%29.html

 

[YoungTradCath]

Why reconcile them? Down with homogeneity.

 

[SonCatcher]

Down with homogeneity.

but my milk will separate

 

[dvdjs]

It is mainly because the method that the council of Nicaea decides should be used to calculate the date of Easter is on the Julian calendar. To change it without a pan-Orthodox council would be unthinkable. Then there is some objection about the timing of Easter relative to passover (Easter, being the completion of passover is supposed to fall after the date of passover) which I’m not really sure I fully understand, because I haven’t delved into it much.

The council’s method for reckoning Pascha has nothing to do with the Julian calendar. The council prescribed celebrating Pascha on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. The equinox was determined astronomically - with the Emperor recommending all to follow Alexandria, which had the best astronomy. The calculation did not follow the Julian calendar date, which was already several days off. In time, long after the council, various algorithms were used to compute the date of Pascha; typically these calculations involved the use of a calendar date for the vernal equinox. The approach used in the West gives results that are very faithful to the prescriptions of the council; that used in the East plainly does not.

As to Passover, the council established a means of reckoning that was independent of the calculation of the Jewish Passover, They disallowed celebration on the 14th of Nissan; moreover, as the Emperor’s letter made awfully clear, they were to avoid any consideration of Passover in the reckoning. Nevertheless, in light of the method of calculating Passover at that time, Pascha as calculated following the council’s formula, always followed Passover. However this situation was not considered as prescribed until roughly a millenium after the council.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Why reconcile them? Down with homogeneity.

I’m all for keeping separate traditions and theology but I think that in celebrating the main feasts of Christ there should be 1 calendar. Otherwise it is hard to maintain a sense of unity in certain cases…like now with Pascha being 5 weeks apart. Even within an eparchy itself certain parishes might be on the Gregorian calendar and others on the Julian…

 

[Zekariya]

I’m all for keeping separate traditions and theology but I think that in celebrating the main feasts of Christ there should be 1 calendar. Otherwise it is hard to maintain a sense of unity in certain cases…like now with Pascha being 5 weeks apart. Even within an eparchy itself certain parishes might be on the Gregorian calendar and others on the Julian…

I agree! Easter/Pascha, Christmas, Theophany (the Baptism of Christ), and the Annunciation should are be celebrated on the same date by all of the Catholic Church.

Maybe we need a Vatican III to draw this up.

 

[Hasire]

I agree! Easter/Pascha, Christmas, Theophany (the Baptism of Christ), and the Annunciation should are be celebrated on the same date by all of the Catholic Church.

Maybe we need a Vatican III to draw this up.

No please no

How about a Trent II?

 

[Zekariya]

No please no

How about a Trent II?

How about Nicaea III?

 

[Digitonomy]

I wonder if this issue is on the proposed agenda for the planned Great and Holy Council, as it was in the late 1970s. Not that such a council is likely in the foreseeable future.