On Roman Catholic Authority

[JonathanKinsman]

If we can’t get it right with just one source, how do you guys think you will get it right with one man ruling over hundreds of thousands of parishes with more than one source of “authority”? It’s difficult enough with the Bible alone let alone bringing “Tradition” into the equation.

hoosierdaddy:

Bishops are responsible for the teaching and other pastoral needs of their dioceses. Not the Bishop of Rome, who is called, after the Italian affectionate term for ‘father,’ the Pope.

That is why Bishops play an important role in determining what is doctrinal (they pray, they argue, they pray, they discuss) before the Pope issues any statement (think of Vatican II) on whatever issue is at hand.

Pope’s do not operate in a vacuum, hoosierdaddy, it’s not like Pastor Joe at the Redeemer Rock Glad Tidings of Peoria church who decides that God spoke to him and told him to build a tower to the glory of God, or something along the lines of Haggard and Roberts and Koresh and Jim Jones.

Bishops check each other and the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) is one of the group. He speaks for the Faithful, the Church, but he never speaks without the authority and support of the thousands of bishops throughout the world.

They understand each other, because their common language is Latin. Amazing, huh. All those people all those different cultures all those hundreds upon hundreds of years and only 2 infallible statements from 2 popes!

 

[maryj]

No…but it does prove that Catholicism is splintered contra what gets repeated here ad nauseum. That being that only Protestants have divisions and Catholics are united. The three characters above are proof this is not the case.

John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy may claim to be catholics, but since they have choosen to deny a point that is taught de fide, they have seperated themselves from the church. They have to be reconciled, through confession , to become members of the church again(this comes of course through God’s grace). Catholicism is not splintered by this fact. The Catholic church still teaches and holds these truths, weather or not these “characters” believe. If you are catholic, and you hold Pro-abortion views, you cease to be catholic until these views are reconcilled with the churches teachings. So this proof holds no water.

 

[maryj]

hoosierdaddy:

Bishops are responsible for the teaching and other pastoral needs of their dioceses. Not the Bishop of Rome, who is called, after the Italian affectionate term for ‘father,’ the Pope.

That is why Bishops play an important role in determining what is doctrinal (they pray, they argue, they pray, they discuss) before the Pope issues any statement (think of Vatican II) on whatever issue is at hand.

Pope’s do not operate in a vacuum, hoosierdaddy, it’s not like Pastor Joe at the Redeemer Rock Glad Tidings of Peoria church who decides that God spoke to him and told him to build a tower to the glory of God, or something along the lines of Haggard and Roberts and Koresh and Jim Jones.

Bishops check each other and the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) is one of the group. He speaks for the Faithful, the Church, but he never speaks without the authority and support of the thousands of bishops throughout the world.

They understand each other, because their common language is Latin. Amazing, huh. All those people all those different cultures all those hundreds upon hundreds of years and only 2 infallible statements from 2 popes!

Great teaching Jonathan, wow, amazing how much mis-informatin there is about the holy Father, the bishops and the church. truly astonishing.

 

[RNRobert]

Scripture IS the final arbiter in disputes. When there are disagreements you go to the Church and they solve the matter BASED ON SCRIPTURE. If they are wrong and refuse to correct themselves, you leave. I thank God for the Protestant Reformation!

God has placed His Word above His Name…and you think men have the right to “authority” outside of the Word?

Sola Scriptura…God’s gift.

In Acts 15, there was a dispute on whether Gentile Christians should be forced to observe the Mosaic Law, so a council was held. Could Scripture be the final arbiter in this case. I don’t think so, since the NT didn’t exist and the OT wasn’t applicable. Therefore, the Apostles used their authority to decide what to do.

So tell me, whatever happened to Apostolic Authority? And how do you know your interpretation of Scripture is correct?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Oh–and another thing…I don’t think there was anything inherently dishonest about how I presented your quote (as in movie ads claiming critics thought the movie “SPECTACULAR…!” when the actual movie critic wrote, “this film is a spectacular waste of time!”). I certainly did no injustice to your quote.

But I didn’t.

**I noticed you missed this>>“LOL I see now. I’m sorry.”

So I could do the same thing then? I could say that you guys believe Mary is God and just take out “Mother of”? You wouldn’t like that would you? **

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Jonathan>>The Septuagint is what ALL Christians (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) should be using as the basis for the OT.

Sola Jonathanoa?

Even Jews today agree with you on that. And they find nothing inspired or scriptural (in the Jewish view prophecy from God quit centuries before Jesus) in the NT.

**Then they disagree with me because I see all of the NT inspired. **
(Edited by Moderator)

The flaw in your reasoning is that you ignore what Catholics as the ONLY Christian Church for approximately 1000 years (before the schism with the East) have given everyone: the Bible.

No I don’t. What I don’t understand is why they neglect their own “gift” to us for the traditions of man.

To admit that is to admit YOUR view of what should be inspired or not is what is flawed.

**How is “my” view any less correct than “yours”? I refer to the first statement above…you gave an authoritative statement on what all Christians should be using. Here is my authoritative statement. All Christians should be using the Bible alone and rejecting the traditions/commandments of men. **

 

[PRmerger]

When there are disagreements you go to the Church and they solve the matter BASED ON SCRIPTURE. If they are wrong and refuse to correct themselves, you leave!

I had a co-worker who told me that while growing up, her mother used to cart her and her 6 siblings around from church to church, trying to find a church that “met our needs.”. She would stay for several Sundays, until the preacher said something she found distasteful, and then promptly leave. She shopped at about 15 different churches before she found a preacher she liked, who said things she agreed with, who made her feel welcome…

On one hand, I admire her search–and all who seek, will find. On the other hand, her search seems backwards to me–why are people searching for a Truth that fits their own private definition? Aren’t we then creating God in our own image? Shouldn’t we sinners change *ourselves * rather than change theologies when we meet with something disagreeable?

God has placed His Word above His Name…and you think men have the right to “authority” outside of the Word?

Hoosierdaddy, you are mistaken if you think Magisterial authority is outside the Word. There is a common misunderstanding among Protestants that the Magisterium creates doctrines/theologies, and if it’s contrary to God’s Word, then too bad–the Magisterium trumps Scripture! This could not be farther from the truth. Magisterial authority is always subject to Scriptural authority. It simply is the interpreter for the Church. This is indeed a blessing, in order to keep God’s Word pure and understood correctly.

(And I trust, Hoosierdaddy, that you will not simply quote my phrase “the Magisterium trumps Scripture” without its context, in light of our previous posts on editing quotes… )

 

[vern_humphrey]

I knew a fellow years ago from Harrison, Arkansas. He started his own church. He went around to all his friends and asked, “What don’t you like about your church?” And then he made sure his church didn’t have those things.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I had a co-worker who told me that while growing up, her mother used to cart her and her 6 siblings around from church to church, trying to find a church that “met our needs.”. She would stay for several Sundays, until the preacher said something she found distasteful, and then promptly leave. She shopped at about 15 different churches before she found a preacher she liked, who said things she agreed with, who made her feel welcome…

On one hand, I admire her search–and all who seek, will find. On the other hand, her search seems backwards to me–why are people searching for a Truth that fits their own private definition? Aren’t we then creating God in our own image? Shouldn’t we sinners change *ourselves * rather than change theologies when we meet with something disagreeable?

Hoosierdaddy, you are mistaken if you think Magisterial authority is outside the Word. There is a common misunderstanding among Protestants that the Magisterium creates doctrines/theologies, and if it’s contrary to God’s Word, then too bad–the Magisterium trumps Scripture! This could not be farther from the truth. Magisterial authority is always subject to Scriptural authority. It simply is the interpreter for the Church. This is indeed a blessing, in order to keep God’s Word pure and understood correctly.

(And I trust, Hoosierdaddy, that you will not simply quote my phrase “the Magisterium trumps Scripture” without its context, in light of our previous posts on editing quotes… )

Hey PR, thanks for sharing that story. I don’t see the search as the problem so much as the motive for it. We tend to think today that the Church is there for what it can do for us. Instead of worrying about it meeting our needs we should worry about how we can meet needs of others. I am not always perfect in regards to this (I’m human) but I believe I’m more mature than I used to be. We should flee from genuine error; we don’t just leave because the preacher says soemthing hard to us that is TRUE.

If what you say about the Magisterium is true then I understand where I’m wrong. However, people even on this site have varying interpretations of things so I can’t just take your word for it. I will look it up myself.

LOL don’t worry. I was not going to quote half your statement. It never even entered my mind. You can bet that if we were fighting I’d do it. I fight dirty but we aren’t fighting. God bless.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I knew a fellow years ago from Harrison, Arkansas. He started his own church. He went around to all his friends and asked, “What don’t you like about your church?” And then he made sure his church didn’t have those things.

LOL see, I wish I could do that.

Since I believe every denomination has some truth and are off on something else I’d take the best of all denominations and put them together. I’d even include your daily services.