On Salvation by Faith and Works

[VesselofMercy]

Cathoholic…

I hardly know how to reply to that mishmash of assumptions and accusations, and even if I did I doubt it would do any good nor make any difference.

The only response I can think of is 1 Corinthians 2:6-16,

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”-
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

The way to truly know and understand God is through His word…and only He can make words to be His very own. And the only way to truly understand His word is by being born again. No one can make this happen (the wind blows where it will), and not everyone who claims to be born again is. If you haven’t trusted in Christ alone for your salvation, that’s a good place to start.

 

[Cathoholic]

VesselofMercy.

You said:

I hardly know how to reply to that mishmash of assumptions and accusations, and even if I did I doubt it would do any good nor make any difference.

Sorry about that VesselofMercy.

I did not mean to make assumptions or accusations. Apparently I did not communicate myself very well.

But hang in here and let’s discuss this.

It sounds like you are using some Anabaptist jargon (maybe I am wrong again). I too have been involved in Anabaptist ministry as a youth.

You have had and will have good things to share here, and maybe I can share something worthwhile too. Please bear with me OK?

---

I mentioned our works done in GRACE is really . . . . God at work IN US. This is a foreign under emphasized concept in much of Bible-only Christianity.

But let’s see St. Paul just matter-of-factly discuss this, assuming his hearers are spiritual enough to know this without him defending what he is saying.

PHILIPPIANS 2:12a 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation eek:What!!!) . . .

HOW can we possibly DO this?? Fortunately St. Paul tells us in the very next sentence how. By God WORKING within us!

PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, **work out your own salvation **with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

These are the types of “good works” Catholics refer to. “Grace works” some Catholics call them.

Anything less such as works of the law (or “Torah”) such as “circumcision” or other “works” done apart from the grace of Christ won on Calvary, Catholics reject as far as salvation is concerned.

But we don’t reject Jesus’ WORK on Calvary. And we don’t reject Jesus continuing to WORK IN US.

Is this unreasonable?

---

You also said:

The way to truly know and understand God is through His word…and only He can make words to be His very own.

I agree with this statement. You and I stand shoulder to shoulder on this point VesselofMercy.

Certainly I might not agree with your interpretation of what “His word” is, but Catholics don’t think anything beyond “the Word of God” is necessary for salvation. OK?

Some people when they say “His Word” really means the Bible ALONE, but that isn’t taught in Scripture? Jesus of course IS “the Word made flesh”. You will affirm this too (I think). So His “Word” cannot be reduced down to the the printed page or Scriptures ALONE (as St. John reminds us in John 21:25).

---

And you responded to my posts (my posts from here and here) with a verse from 1st Corinthians that says:

But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”- these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit.

Since we are on a thread that is talking about justification and St. John’s writings . . . .

. . . . In St. John’s Gospel, Jesus specifically says (in John 14:15 and basically the same thing in John 15:14):

JOHN 14:15 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Considering Jesus’ words in St. John’s Gospel, and keeping St. Paul’s admonitions in mind, it is not unreasonable to think that if we love Jesus, we will keep His commandments is it?

And if true, then if a person doesn’t love Jesus, they probably will NOT keep His commandments.

But if a person were justified by faith ALONE (and NOT necessarily “loving Jesus”), then . . .
. . . “loving Jesus” would be “optional”!

I can tell YOU love Jesus VesselofMercy. Certainly you don’t think that “loving Jesus” is a mere optional item (do you?).

We really NEED to LOVE Jesus . . . don’t we?

And Jesus in St. John’s Gospel talks of the importance of perseverance too (which is also a grace and gift from the work of our Lord Jesus on Calvary).

JOHN 8:31-32 31 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Is all of THIS stuff “reasonable” so far?

 

[Cathoholic]

Another brief point I would like to say about St. John’s Gospel considering perseverance (since we already broached “perseverance” and St. John’s Gospel).

JOHN 10:28-29 (NIV) 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Sometimes these verses are usually quoted without John 10:27 along with them, so let’s back up one more verse for more context.

John 10:27 puts John 10:28-29 in a contextual perspective and is necessary to review if you are going to look at John 10:28-29. Let’s go to John 10:27.

JOHN 10:27 (NIV) 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Notice Jesus’ sheep listen to (or “hear”) His voice.

The Greek word for “hear” in this case is “akouo”. This means to “hear” in an ongoing sense.

Notice the verse does NOT state, “my sheep heard my voice.”

Again, the verse does NOT state, “my sheep heard (past tense) my voice”, but rather
Jesus’ sheep listen to (or “hear”–present ongoing process) His voice.

Let’s continue on . . .

Jesus says “I know them . . .”

The Greek word for “know” here is “ginosko” or “ginwskw”.

This also suggests an ongoing process or a relationship and not merely a one-time past moment of acceptance (at a stadium, campfire, Bible study, or wherever).

Jesus points out about His sheep that . . . “they follow me.”

Not “they followed me.”

This implies an ongoing following or a process, and not merely a moment of acceptance.

The Greek word that St. John uses for “follow” is “akoloutheo” or “akolouqonsin.”

That’s WHY (as Jimmy “James” Akin has pointed out) that the great Baptist theologian
Dale Moody in his work “The Word of Truth” can say on p. 357 the following (emphasis mine):

John 10:28 is frequently used as a security blanket by those who ignore many of the New Testament warnings about going back or falling away, but a literal translation of John 10:27-28 . . . hardly needs explanation . . . ‘My sheep keep on hearing my voice, and I keep on knowing them, and they keep on following me: and I keep on giving them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.’

Some read the passage as if it says: ‘My sheep heard my voice, and I knew them, and they followed me, and I gave to them eternal life.’ [But] The verbs are present linear, indicating continuous action by the sheep and by the Shepherd, not the punctiliar fallacy of the past tense.” (Moody, 357) (bold emphasis and underline mine)

So we see John 10:28-29 as an ongoing process and not merely a moment and it involves our free will in accepting GRACE in this ongoing process.

But do we NEED to “keep on following” Jesus (helped by His grace of course)? Do WE NEED to “accept” Jesus? Yes we do.

Do we need to “keep” accepting Jesus? (and they follow me too and keep following Jesus?)

Well if we need to “accept Jesus” . . . . and . . . . these verses show an ongoing process, that means we must KEEP “accepting Jesus”!

JOHN 10:27 (NIV) 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

We must cooperate with the graces given to us and are continually given to us to maintain us IN CHRIST.

St. Paul ALSO says we must continually accept the grace of Jesus. And that it is more than a one time event.

Let’s listen to St. Paul on the need to CONTINUE to cooperate (“together”) with the “WORK” of Christ.

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

So we see this continuous process involves Jesus, but Jesus doesn’t force us to accept Him.

And we see a “continuous action" by the Jesus to be sure . . . but we also see . . .

And we also a “continuous cooperation by the sheep”!

Certainly with God’s grace! But we must respond to that grace lest we “accept” this grace “in vain”.

This shows us a process and not merely a moment is what is going on here.

Remember. Jesus’ sheep follow Him and KEEP following Him!

Jesus’ sheep sheep listen to His voice; I know them, and they follow me.

JOHN 10:27 (NIV) 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

 

[Christian50]

Another brief point I would like to say about St. John’s Gospel considering perseverance (since we already broached “perseverance” and St. John’s Gospel).

JOHN 10:28-29 (NIV) 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Sometimes these verses are usually quoted without John 10:27 along with them, so let’s back up one more verse for more context.

John 10:27 puts John 10:28-29 in a contextual perspective and is necessary to review if you are going to look at John 10:28-29. Let’s go to John 10:27.

JOHN 10:27 (NIV) 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Notice Jesus’ sheep listen to (or “hear”) His voice.

The Greek word for “hear” in this case is “akouo”. This means to “hear” in an ongoing sense.

Notice the verse does NOT state, “my sheep heard my voice.”

Again, the verse does NOT state, “my sheep heard (past tense) my voice”, but rather
Jesus’ sheep listen to (or “hear”–present ongoing process) His voice.

Let’s continue on . . .

Jesus says “I know them . . .”

The Greek word for “know” here is “ginosko” or “ginwskw”.

This also suggests an ongoing process or a relationship and not merely a one-time past moment of acceptance (at a stadium, campfire, Bible study, or wherever).

Jesus points out about His sheep that . . . “they follow me.”

Not “they followed me.”

This implies an ongoing following or a process, and not merely a moment of acceptance.

The Greek word that St. John uses for “follow” is “akoloutheo” or “akolouqonsin.”

That’s WHY (as Jimmy “James” Akin has pointed out) that the great Baptist theologian
Dale Moody in his work “The Word of Truth” can say on p. 357 the following (emphasis mine):

So we see John 10:28-29 as an ongoing process and not merely a moment and it involves our free will in accepting GRACE in this ongoing process.

But do we NEED to “keep on following” Jesus (helped by His grace of course)? Do WE NEED to “accept” Jesus? Yes we do.

Do we need to “keep” accepting Jesus? (and they follow me too and keep following Jesus?)

Well if we need to “accept Jesus” . . . . and . . . . these verses show an ongoing process, that means we must KEEP “accepting Jesus”!

JOHN 10:27 (NIV) 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

We must cooperate with the graces given to us and are continually given to us to maintain us IN CHRIST.

St. Paul ALSO says we must continually accept the grace of Jesus. And that it is more than a one time event.

Let’s listen to St. Paul on the need to CONTINUE to cooperate (“together”) with the “WORK” of Christ.

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

So we see this continuous process involves Jesus, but Jesus doesn’t force us to accept Him.

And we see a “continuous action" by the Jesus to be sure . . . but we also see . . .

And we also a “continuous cooperation by the sheep”!

Certainly with God’s grace! But we must respond to that grace lest we “accept” this grace “in vain”.

This shows us a process and not merely a moment is what is going on here.

Remember. Jesus’ sheep follow Him and KEEP following Him!

Jesus’ sheep sheep listen to His voice; I know them, and they follow me.

JOHN 10:27 (NIV) 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Hello Cathoholic,

St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

Quote: [P]erseverance is called he abiding in GOOD to the END of life.
And in order to have this perseverance man . . . NEEDS the **divine assistance **GUIDING him and GUARDING him against the attacks of the passions . . . And hence after anyone has been JUSTIFIED BY GRACE, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, that he may be kept from evil TILL the END of his life. (ST IIa:109:10) End quote. Emphasize added.

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’
Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].”

AQUINAS said it ALWAYS saves a person because of THE KIND of grace it is; MOLINA said it ALWAYS saves a person because God only gives it to those whom he knows will respond to it. But the effect is the same: The gift of final perseverance ALWAYS works. End quote. Emphasize added.

The power of perseverance is neither in the human will alone nor in God’s grace solely, but in the combination of both, i.e., Divine grace aiding human will, and human will co-operating with Divine grace.

God bless.

Christian

 

[Randy_Carson]

The way to truly know and understand God is through His word…

One wonders how anyone knew God before the canon of scripture was established…or when literacy was uncommon…or before the invention of the printing press gave everyone an opportunity to own a pocket NT…

However, if we consider that Jesus is the Word of God, then yes.

But if you mean the Bible alone, then no; the Bible is materially sufficient but not formally sufficient.

 

[JonNC]

=Randy Carson;12739036]One wonders how anyone knew God before the canon of scripture was established…or when literacy was uncommon…or before the invention of the printing press gave everyone an opportunity to own a pocket NT…

However, if we consider that Jesus is the Word of God, then yes.

Of course, but also the preaching of the word ( its actual reading and usage during mass), the administration of the sacraments, as well as the widespread use of iconography.

Jon

 

[Cathoholic]

Christian50. You stated . . .

Hello Cathoholic,

St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

Quote: [P]erseverance is called he abiding in GOOD to the END of life.
And in order to have this perseverance man . . . NEEDS the divine assistance GUIDING him and GUARDING him . . .

I am not sure what you mean (in addressing this to my post).

You understand I affirm the continual need for God’s grace right?

(Below are a few quotes from my prior posts)

(here) So we see John 10:28-29 as an ongoing process and not merely a moment and it involves our free will in accepting GRACE in this ongoing process.

(here) We must cooperate with the graces given to us and are continually given to us to maintain us IN CHRIST.

(here) St. Paul ALSO says we must continually accept the grace of Jesus. And that it is more than a one time event.

(here) Certainly with God’s grace!

(here) I mentioned our works done in GRACE is really . . . . God at work IN US.

(here) But we don’t reject Jesus’ WORK on Calvary. And we don’t reject Jesus continuing to WORK IN US.

(here) And Jesus in St. John’s Gospel talks of the importance of perseverance too (which is also a grace and gift from the work of our Lord Jesus on Calvary).

I guess I don’t know what idea you are putting forth concerning “Grace” and “perseverance” in your post Christian50.

---

I affirm you need grace (as I thought I was clear on this:shrug.

St. Thomas does NOT teach we have no need to cooperate with grace (nor does St. Paul
or any authors of Scripture that the Holy Spirit used, nor does Trent) so I don’t think you are saying that either.

Maybe you are just saying “I see you and St. Thomas are on the same page, along with the Council of Trent”.

Maybe you think Jesus WORKING IN US and through us is NOT a grace eek:???) and that ONLY “faith” is a grace?

Actually, I am not sure what you were saying (sorry about that).

---

I am not sure what you were conveying to me. The idea you were trying to convey is probably quite reasonable, but could you please clarify?

Thanks in advance Christian50.

 

[Christian50]

Christian50. You stated . . .

Hello Cathoholic,

I am not sure what you mean (in addressing this to my post).

You understand I affirm the continual need for God’s grace right?
(Below are a few quotes from my prior posts)

I guess I don’t know what idea you are putting forth concerning “Grace” and “perseverance” in your post Christian50.

I affirm you need grace (as I thought I was clear on this:shrug.

St. Thomas does NOT teach we have no need to cooperate with grace (nor does St. Paul
or any authors of Scripture that the Holy Spirit used, nor does Trent) so I don’t think you are saying that either.

Maybe you are just saying “I see you and St. Thomas are on the same page, along with the Council of Trent”.

Maybe you think Jesus WORKING IN US and through us is NOT a grace eek:???) and that ONLY “faith” is a grace?

Actually, I am not sure what you were saying (sorry about that).

I am not sure what you were conveying to me. The idea you were trying to convey is probably quite reasonable, but could you please clarify?

Thanks in advance Christian50.

Hello Cathoholic,

I’m sorry, I didn’t explain my intention.
I didn’t mean to contradict your post only add to it.
I agree with your post.

God bless.

Christian

 

[Cathoholic]

Thanks for clarifying Christian50.

 

[dcana]

Here is some Scripture they would have done well to have heeded:

So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

• Phil 2:1-2

May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

• Romans 15:5-6

I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

• 1 Cor 1:10

And especially these:

He who hears you [my Apostles, and those who you will anoint after you as your successors to bring my salvation to the ends of the earth until I return in glory] hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.

• Luke 10:16

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

• Gal 5:20 (KJV)

They are idolaters because they placed themselves above God.

Here’s some Scripture that those who heard them preaching should have always kept in mind. Some did, some didn’t. Even today, we can read these Scriptures to evaluate them:

For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

• 1 Cor 11: 18-19

I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties,** in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught**; AVOID THEM. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded.

• Rom 16:17-18

God bless

 

[dcana]

We were able to put the canon of the Bible together, rejecting many of the dozens (if not hundreds) of apocryphal texts that were floating around, many claiming to have been written by Apostles, and knowing just what exactly to include, because we know what we believe:

For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

• Gal 1: 11-12

And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us [notice “heard”, not “read”], you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the Word of God, which is at work in you believers.

• 1 Cor 2:13

The Holy Spirit guided us to recognize the books that were to be included in the Bible and to reject those to be excluded. The content of all the manuscripts floating around either agreed with the Faith of the Church, that is, Sacred Tradition, given through the oral teaching of Jesus and the oral and/or written teaching of Paul, Timothy, Titus, the Apostles, and others who “handed on what was given to them” or it didn’t. If it didn’t, it was excluded. How else could the canon of Scripture have come together? Think about it. It is because we knew (and know) what it is that we believed. Jesus promised this:

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

• John 14:26

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

• John 16:13

In exactly the same way, the Holy Spirit enabled us to recognize the errors of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. by comparing what they were teaching with the Faith of the Church handed on and contained in Sacred Tradition.

Why?

So we would know what is True, infallibly - “we” being the human race. Unfortunately, humans do not always cooperate in the plans of God, so there have always been heresies and schisms, Protestantism being the second-most persistent one, and yet we still know what we believe. There’s no question of what we believe. Anybody can pick up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and know what we believe. How could it be otherwise? Is not God One? Isn’t God the One who can “neither deceive nor be deceived?” Doesn’t He have the power to work through men to achieve His ends? Yes, yes, and yes. The Faith of the Church has never and can never change, and it has for 2,000 years been preached and available to all who would listen.

God bless

 

[dcana]

• Please ignore the post above *

I had several tabs open and posted to the wrong thread. I thought I had successfully deleted the post but evidently did not.

Carry on.

 

[Cathoholic]

Let’s listen in to Jesus in Matthew 6 on faith AND works—the work of forgiveness.

Jesus is just finishing teaching about the Our Father Prayer.

MATTHEW 6:12-13 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Now let’s keep listening, because Jesus is going to warn us about a situation where we won’t get our sins forgiven if we don’t DO something.

What could that something be? (It is NOT this)

NOT MATTHEW 6:12-13 PHANTOM VERSE 14 For if you accept me into your heart as personal Lord and Savior, your heavenly Father will forgive you your sins unconditionally and you infallibly know you have eternal life. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, . . . . your Father has forgiven you anyway unconditionally due to faith ALONE and I guess your Father can’t take away eternal life from you otherwise it wouldn’t be “eternal” and it would be considered a “work”. You SHOULD DO this . . . but you don’t HAVE TO. But I want to urge you to do so.

This is not what Jesus says here!

Let’s go back to Matthew 6 and see what Jesus REALLY says to people who . . . . (?)

. . . . what Jesus REALLY says to people who . . . .who never knew God to begin with? NO!

. . . . what Jesus REALLY says to people who even have God as their FATHER!

Jesus will be addressing people who have God as their FATHER (!), people who have a personal relationship with God.

Jesus is addressing people who already have God as THEIR FATHER – People WHO ARE SAVED in some sense! People who have a personal relationship with Jesus even coming to hear His preaching!

Jesus is addressing this to the “saved” here. Jesus is addressing people who Jesus Himself describes God as “your Father”.

This admonition is for all of us as Christians.

MATTHEW 6:12-15 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, **your Father **will not forgive your sins.

If we don’t forgive sins, we won’t be forgiven from our Father!

This is what the Bible teaches.
This is what Jesus teaches.
This is what the Holy Spirit teaches.

(Please keep this command from Jesus in mind whenever you say “The Lord’s Prayer” or “The Our Father”)

God will not forgive these people who have God as their FATHER, if they don’t DO what?

God will not forgive these people who EVEN have God as their FATHER, if they don’t forgive others their trespasses against them!

The reason I want to make this so starkly clear, is my Baptist friends would say things like:

“Well there are saved AND unsaved people in the crowd that Jesus is talking to. So this command is merely for the ‘unsaved’ people in the crowd” (But this ignores the fact that THESE people Jesus addresses have God as their FATHER specifically).

Or . . .

“Well you really should “forgive” but you don’t need to.” (Yet Jesus says they will NOT have their sins forgiven unless they DO something! What is it? Forgive others).

Or . . . .

“Well, if you really have God as your Father, you automatically WILL just do this” (Yet Jesus doesn’t say anything like that).

Or some such thing.

Faith AND Works. That is what the Scriptures teach (by grace and not on our own to be sure, but faith AND works [and supernatural **hope too]).

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men of justification by faith ALONE.

Justification by faith ALONE is a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God.

 

[Christian50]

Let’s listen in to Jesus in Matthew 6 on faith AND works—the work of forgiveness.

Jesus is just finishing teaching about the Our Father Prayer.

MATTHEW 6:12-13 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Now let’s keep listening, because Jesus is going to warn us about a situation where we won’t get our sins forgiven if we don’t DO something.

What could that something be? (It is NOT this)

NOT MATTHEW 6:12-13 PHANTOM VERSE 14 For if you accept me into your heart as personal Lord and Savior, your heavenly Father will forgive you your sins unconditionally and you infallibly know you have eternal life. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, . . . . your Father has forgiven you anyway unconditionally due to faith ALONE and I guess your Father can’t take away eternal life from you otherwise it wouldn’t be “eternal” and it would be considered a “work”. You SHOULD DO this . . . but you don’t HAVE TO. But I want to urge you to do so.

This is not what Jesus says here!

Let’s go back to Matthew 6 and see what Jesus REALLY says to people who . . . . (?)

. . . . what Jesus REALLY says to people who . . . .who never knew God to begin with? NO!

. . . . what Jesus REALLY says to people who even have God as their FATHER!

If we don’t forgive sins, we won’t be forgiven from our Father!

This is what the Bible teaches.
This is what Jesus teaches.
This is what the Holy Spirit teaches.

(Please keep this command from Jesus in mind whenever you say “The Lord’s Prayer” or “The Our Father”)

God will not forgive these people who have God as their FATHER, if they don’t DO what?

God will not forgive these people who EVEN have God as their FATHER, if they don’t forgive others their trespasses against them!

The reason I want to make this so starkly clear, is my Baptist friends would say things like:

“Well there are saved AND unsaved people in the crowd that Jesus is talking to. So this command is merely for the ‘unsaved’ people in the crowd” (But this ignores the fact that THESE people Jesus addresses have God as their FATHER specifically).

Or . . .

“Well you really should “forgive” but you don’t need to.” (Yet Jesus says they will NOT have their sins forgiven unless they DO something! What is it? Forgive others).

Hello Cathoholic,

Your Baptist friends are correct to say: Saved and unsaved people in the crowd.
Even today saved and unsaved people in the Church.

The command is for both, the saved and the unsaved.

Those who are saved (their names are in the “Book of Life,” predestined to Heaven) always forgive others. So they don’t lose their salvation.
They INFALLIBLY protected by God’s SPECIEL GRACE called “GOD’S GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.”

St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

Quote: [P]erseverance is called he abiding in GOOD to the END of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . NEEDS the divine assistance GUIDING him and GUARDING him against the attacks of the passions . . . And hence after anyone has been JUSTIFIED BY GRACE, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, that he may be kept from evil TILL the END of his life. (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation. End quote.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’
Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].”

AQUINAS said it ALWAYS saves a person because of THE KIND of grace it is; MOLINA said it ALWAYS saves a person because God only gives it to those whom he knows will respond to it. But the effect is the same: The gift of final perseverance ALWAYS works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “THE GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.”

The Church FORMALLY teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.
[43] AQUINAS (and even MOLINA) said this grace ALWAYS ensures that a person will persevere.

[44] AQUINAS said, “Predestination [to final salvation] MOST CERTAINLY and INFALLIBLY takes effect.”

AQUINAS said the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in GOOD to the END of life. End quote. Emphasize added.

The power of perseverance is neither in the human will alone nor in God’s grace solely, but in the combination of both, i.e., Divine grace aiding human will, and human will co-operating with Divine grace.

God’s gift of FINAL PERSEVERANCE is a divine assistance guiding and guarding the saved (their names are in the “Book of Life,” predestined to Heaven) and always ensures that they die in the state of grace.

God bless.

Christian

 

[Cathoholic]

Christian50

You said:

The command is for both, the saved and the unsaved.

The command IS for everybody. I affirm that!

But Jesus HERE in this passage, is specifically addressing people who Jesus Himself asserts God as their “Father”.

Your Baptist friends are correct to say: Saved and unsaved people in the crowd.
Even today saved and unsaved people in the Church.

My Baptist friends will also say if they are not saved, the devil is their father.

That’s the point. Jesus can’t be talking to “unsaved” people if they have God as their “father”.

You are going to say, you were an ex-baptist and didn’t think that, or that you know Baptists who don’t think that. Fine. When you assert sola Scriptura (as they do), you find Baptists that assert pretty much anything on the proverbial theological map.

If they keep in mind that God is addressing people who have God as their father, they will be able to put themselves into the verse and see they too are NECESSARILY called to charity. They too are NECESSARILY called to forgiveness.

They sometimes try to assert that Jesus was ONLY talking to the unsaved here.

They are incorrect at asserting Jesus wasn’t SPECIFICALLY HERE addressing people who have God as their “Father”. Look at the verse. Read what it says.

Is the verse applicable to everybody too? Yes it is. But that’s not the point I am making here.

---

You talk of “final perseverance”.

Part of “final perseverance” is persevering in faith, hope, and charity. Part of that charity, is “forgiveness”.

Yes, God gives us the grace, but God is not a puppet-master. Aquinas, Trent, and Jimmy Akin talk about free will too. Please don’t present only PART of what they are conveying.

God gives us a free-will and calls us and graces us to cooperate with Him and His will without violating our free-will.

There is an aspect that comes only from God, and there is a part, that comes from God AND us, IN us.

That’s WHY St. Paul can say “God is at work IN YOU.”

HOW that occurs is a mystery, but it occurs.

If you want, please feel free to go ahead and start a thread on predestination, or some other related topic.

 

[Christian50]

Christian50

You said:

The command IS for everybody. I affirm that!

But Jesus HERE in this passage, is specifically addressing people who Jesus Himself asserts God as their “Father”.

My Baptist friends will also say if they are not saved, the devil is their father.

That’s the point. Jesus can’t be talking to “unsaved” people if they have God as their “father”.

You are going to say, you were an ex-baptist and didn’t think that, or that you know Baptists who don’t think that. Fine. When you assert sola Scriptura (as they do), you find Baptists that assert pretty much anything on the proverbial theological map.

If they keep in mind that God is addressing people who have God as their father, they will be able to put themselves into the verse and see they too are NECESSARILY called to charity. They too are NECESSARILY called to forgiveness.

They sometimes try to assert that Jesus was ONLY talking to the unsaved here.

They are incorrect at asserting Jesus wasn’t SPECIFICALLY HERE addressing people who have God as their “Father”. Look at the verse. Read what it says.

Is the verse applicable to everybody too? Yes it is. But that’s not the point I am making here.

---

You talk of “final perseverance”.

Part of “final perseverance” is persevering in faith, hope, and charity. Part of that charity, is “forgiveness”.

Yes, God gives us the grace, but God is not a puppet-master. Aquinas, Trent, and Jimmy Akin talk about free will too. Please don’t present only PART of what they are conveying.

God gives us a free-will and calls us and graces us to cooperate with Him and His will without violating our free-will.

There is an aspect that comes only from God, and there is a part, that comes from God AND us, IN us.

That’s WHY St. Paul can say “God is at work IN YOU.”

HOW that occurs is a mystery, but it occurs.

If you want, please feel free to go ahead and start a thread on predestination, or some other related topic.

Hello Cathoholic,

I agree with your post.

I feel CCC 600 is the key to understand.

[CCC 600] “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of predestination, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.” End quote. Emphasize added.

According to CCC 600, your post and my post are both correct.

God has predestined us according to our FREE RESPONSE and according to our CO-OPERATION with the grace of God.

So what you say Cathoholic and what I say is both correct.

I would like to ask from you a favor Cathoholic; I have posted on my thread: Is it a possibility that a validly baptized Catholic dies in the state of mortal sin and ends up in hell? , post No: # 33 – # 39.

I would like to have your view on it.

Thanking you in advance.

God bless.

Christian

 

[VesselofMercy]

Let’s listen in to Jesus in Matthew 6 on faith AND works—the work of forgiveness.

MATTHEW 6:12-15 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

If we don’t forgive sins, we won’t be forgiven from our Father!

This is what the Bible teaches.
This is what Jesus teaches.
This is what the Holy Spirit teaches.

(Please keep this command from Jesus in mind whenever you say “The Lord’s Prayer” or “The Our Father”)

God will not forgive these people who have God as their FATHER, if they don’t DO what?

God will not forgive these people who EVEN have God as their FATHER, if they don’t forgive others their trespasses against them!

The reason I want to make this so starkly clear, is my Baptist friends would say things like:

“Well there are saved AND unsaved people in the crowd that Jesus is talking to. So this command is merely for the ‘unsaved’ people in the crowd” (But this ignores the fact that THESE people Jesus addresses have God as their FATHER specifically).

Or . . .

“Well you really should “forgive” but you don’t need to.” (Yet Jesus says they will NOT have their sins forgiven unless they DO something! What is it? Forgive others).

Or . . . .

“Well, if you really have God as your Father, you automatically WILL just do this” (Yet Jesus doesn’t say anything like that).

Or some such thing.

Faith AND Works. That is what the Scriptures teach (by grace and not on our own to be sure, but faith AND works [and supernatural **hope

too]).

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men of justification by faith ALONE.

Justification by faith ALONE is a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God.

Oh don’t worry. I didn’t get the “faith alone” doctrine from men. Did you not read the part about how I became a Protestant? It had nothing to do with any man besides the man Christ Jesus. I read my Bible and my CCC. I read the gospel of Matthew for the first time, realized Purgatory wasn’t in it, and for the first time was filled with hope and wonder that maybe, just maybe Jesus’ death on the cross was ENOUGH to pay for my sins and I could go straight to heaven. And then I believed it. And in that moment my life changed. I was born again.

(Later I revisited the doctrine of Purgatory, realizing maybe I was wrong about the Catholic position and was willing to consider it as true)

The reason we are disagreeing is because we have different understandings of the new birth and the true church. And those who are not born again cannot possibly understand what it is like or what happens to you when you are.

When you are born from above in the way Jesus means it in the Bible (not infant/Catholic baptism), you are completely justified and a new creation. You are justified by grace through faith, and this faith is a productive faith. The Bible is so clear that those who do not have works have never been born again (but that does not mean that our works save us or contribute to our salvation).

1 John 2:29, “If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.”

1 John 3:9, "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

1 John 5:3-4, " For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world."

1 John 2:3-6, “And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”

1 John 4:7-8, “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

And this is what the one born again says in his heart,

Psalm 40:8, “I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”
Psalm 119:24, “Your testimonies are my delight; they are my counselors.”
Psalm 119:35, “Lead me in the path of your commandments, for I delight in it.”

I’m not saying that people who are born again do not sin…that would make me a liar. But we have assurance that when we do, 1John 2:1, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

So when you bring up Matthew 6, those who are born again WILL heed Jesus’ commands and be forgiven. Why? Because “no one born of God makes a practice of sinning” and the regenerate Christian sings with David, “I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”

There are two types of people in this world, those who are born again, and those who are not. And those who are born again, those people are the one true church, the elect, the church that the Bible speaks of. And no…being sprinkled with water as a baby does not make you born again, as is evidenced by all of the verses I quoted above.

 

[Cathoholic]

Thanks for the reply VesselofMercy.

OK. Once saved always saved, Justification by faith alone, Purgatory, and Infant Baptism. All by a Bible alone motif.

That’s fine. Since all of these issues dove-tail in on the justification issue, let’s discuss them (and again many thanks for the discussion).

1 John 2:29, “If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.”

But I am not asking “to be sure if someone is ‘Born of Him’”. (I am already sure of that)

What I am asking; is someone who IS already born of Him, can so reject God’s grace to the point of not being forgiven?

Can someone who has "God as their father”, can someone who is “born of Him” have any situation in which he/she does NOT have his/her sins forgiven?

If he/she DOES sin, they know they have an advocate with the Father (as St. John also says). And I want to affirm that.

But what if they REFUSE Jesus, that “advocate with the Father”?

What if they refuse the lifeline of grace that flow from Jesus and His work on Calvary that they are given?

What if these people who already have God as their “Father”, REFUSE Jesus, that “advocate with the Father", by refusing to forgive people who “trespass” against them?

**Will their Father forgive them anyway? **

Please think about this. Think about Jesus’ admonition.

MATTHEW 6:12-15 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Please try to look at this from what my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ teaches.

Question: Will their Father forgive these people who explicitly have God as their Father anyway if they “do not forgive men their sins”?

A. Their Father will forgive them anyway.
B. They cannot refuse forgiveness. Forgiveness is automatic for people who have God as “their Father”
C. Their Heavenly Father will not forgive them their sins if they refuse to forgive men their sins.

 

[Lucy107]

Adapted from:
Is St. John the Key to Settling the Justification Debate?
/…/ If that’s true, how is the doctrinal dispute over justification worth dividing the Church over?

Isn’t this the sort of issue that should be readily settled with a simple copy-paste from the CCC?

 

[VesselofMercy]

What I am asking; is someone who IS already born of Him, can so reject God’s grace to the point of not being forgiven?

Can someone who has "God as their father”, can someone who is “born of Him” have any situation in which he/she does NOT have his/her sins forgiven?

If he/she DOES sin, they know they have an advocate with the Father (as St. John also says). And I want to affirm that.

But what if they REFUSE Jesus, that “advocate with the Father”?

What if they refuse the lifeline of grace that flow from Jesus and His work on Calvary that they are given?

What if these people who already have God as their “Father”, REFUSE Jesus, that “advocate with the Father", by refusing to forgive people who “trespass” against them?

**Will their Father forgive them anyway? **

They can’t and they won’t. The only thing man uses his free will for is to reject God. When God causes someone to be born again they become a new creation with a new heart, a heart of flesh not of stone, and although their flesh is still at work in them, the Holy Spirit is also indwelling them. And the power of the Spirit through their faith will cause them to persevere and not allow them to continue in sin. Philippians 1: 6, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

Please think about this. Think about Jesus’ admonition.

MATTHEW 6:12-15 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Please try to look at this from what my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ teaches.

Question: Will their Father forgive these people who explicitly have God as their Father anyway if they “do not forgive men their sins”?

A. Their Father will forgive them anyway.
B. They cannot refuse forgiveness. Forgiveness is automatic for people who have God as “their Father”
C. Their Heavenly Father will not forgive them their sins if they refuse to forgive men their sins.

You are assuming that these people are born again because Jesus refers to God as their Father, but the text does not say that they are born again. Jesus is speaking to Jews, to the children of Israel, who through the Old Covenant are children of God.

So I guess the answer is B, they cannot refuse forgiveness…for a time perhaps, but not indefinitely. If they do, they show that they were not born again, 1 John 2:19, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”