V
VesselofMercy
Guest
This… adam4d.com/former-christian/ just doesn’t happen.
- Status
C
Cathoholic
Guest
VesselofMercy. I don’t think you are purposefully subtracting from Scripture in trying to be spiritual.
You mention the fact that Jesus either saves you or you save yourself.
I just want to affirm Jesus saves us and you cannot save yourself OK?
The Catholic Church teaches . . . .
COUNCIL OF TRENT . . . . none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
CCC 1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
But once we are sons and daughters of God, we need to (also by grace) accept Jesus Christ every day, into our hearts but ALSO into our LIVES.
CCC 2002a God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. . . .
CCC 2003a Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church.
Catholics don’t reduce justification to a mere moment ALONE. It is a moment, but a moment followed by a life-long process.
We NEED to allow God to WORK IN us and THROUGH us. Grace is “favor” as CCC 1996 says, but grace is ALSO a “participation” in the life of Christ (as CCC 1997 also says).
Jesus then WORKS IN US and we NEED to allow Jesus to WORK in and through us. Nobody can snatch us out of His hand, but He doesn’t force us to remain there in His hand either.
So as you said: Jesus saves you and you cannot save yourself. But now IN CHRIST there is a third aspect too. Christ AT WORK in US. This is part of saving grace. You seem to affirm only two of those three aspects (correct me if I am wrong).
But once you are IN JESUS, once you are saved, once the Master gives His “servants” “talents” (see Matthew 25:14 and following) that we don’t deserve, . . . we NEED to cooperate with those “talents” or that grace that is given.
And if His “servants” do not, they are tossed out into the night where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth for people who the Bible specifically describes as the Masters “servants”.
Those are the “Works” (God at WORK in you) that you must do. We MUST bear fruit.
So now with Christ in us, we see . . . .
justification by a mere moment ALONE and justification by faith ALONE
with a verse that explicitly asserts the Catholic position on these same issues. . . .
(Continued)
You mention the fact that Jesus either saves you or you save yourself.
I just want to affirm Jesus saves us and you cannot save yourself OK?
The Catholic Church teaches . . . .
COUNCIL OF TRENT . . . . none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
CCC 1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
But once we are sons and daughters of God, we need to (also by grace) accept Jesus Christ every day, into our hearts but ALSO into our LIVES.
CCC 2002a God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. . . .
CCC 2003a Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church.
Catholics don’t reduce justification to a mere moment ALONE. It is a moment, but a moment followed by a life-long process.
- Justification reduced to a moment ALONE (false-see Luke 9:23)
- Justification by a moment followed by a life-long process (true)
We NEED to allow God to WORK IN us and THROUGH us. Grace is “favor” as CCC 1996 says, but grace is ALSO a “participation” in the life of Christ (as CCC 1997 also says).
Jesus then WORKS IN US and we NEED to allow Jesus to WORK in and through us. Nobody can snatch us out of His hand, but He doesn’t force us to remain there in His hand either.
So as you said: Jesus saves you and you cannot save yourself. But now IN CHRIST there is a third aspect too. Christ AT WORK in US. This is part of saving grace. You seem to affirm only two of those three aspects (correct me if I am wrong).
- Jesus’s WORK on Calvary is applied to our salvation (true)
- Man cannot save himself (also true)
But once you are IN JESUS, once you are saved, once the Master gives His “servants” “talents” (see Matthew 25:14 and following) that we don’t deserve, . . . we NEED to cooperate with those “talents” or that grace that is given.
And if His “servants” do not, they are tossed out into the night where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth for people who the Bible specifically describes as the Masters “servants”.
Those are the “Works” (God at WORK in you) that you must do. We MUST bear fruit.
So now with Christ in us, we see . . . .
- Jesus’s WORK on Calvary is applied to our salvation (true)
- Man cannot save himself (also true)
- Men and Women who are now, Sons and Daughters of God, MUST
work with the Graces we are given by Jesus WHO lives in us (true) - Servants of Christ (not just “NON-servants” but even “servants”), if they
refuse to continue to serve “their Master” (notice the “servant” CAN refuse
to serve his Master—Jesus), these “servants” are tossed into the outer darkness
where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth as Matthew 25:14 etc. warns us. (also true)
justification by a mere moment ALONE and justification by faith ALONE
with a verse that explicitly asserts the Catholic position on these same issues. . . .
(Continued)
C
Cathoholic
Guest
I also found it quite astonishing that to you would try to assert
justification by a mere moment ALONE and justification by faith ALONE
with a verse that explicitly asserts the Catholic position on these same issues. . . .
You seem to deny justification by a moment necessarily followed by a life-long process. You also seem to deny justification by faith AND God working in you.
Again, I found it surprising that you would appeal to a verse that explicitly showed God at WORK in us (saving us using “work”, yes “faith” but explicitly “work” too) and how God later brings that WORK to “completion” suggesting a life-long process (you mean it is NOT complete now?) given your denials of the full Gospel!
PHILIPPIANS 1:6 6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Are you saying that a “work” in this context, saves you?
Are you affirming what St. Paul said in asserting there is something that needs to be “completed” in us that St. Paul can refer to as a “WORK”?
I affirm what St. Paul is saying, but do you?
And if we want to be spiritual children of God, shouldn’t we include the very next time in Philippians that St. Paul mentions “work” so we get an even larger context as to at least have even more detail of what St. Paul means by this “work” that is still necessary to bring us to “completion”?
PHILIPPIANS 1:6, 2:12a And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. . . . 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation (!!!)
WHAT!!!???
WHAT is St. Paul talking about here? We cannot work out our “own salvation” on our own. So HOW can St. Paul possibly think of us as being able to “work out” our “own salvation”?
Well fortunately St. Paul tells us how we can “work out our salvation”. By God WORKING IN US (“for God is at work in you”).
Let’s look at it.
PHILIPPIANS 1:6, 2:12-13 6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. . . . . 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
And you also cited Ephesians 2 in post 9 (here).
I affirm Ephesians 2 also.
But why not look at the next two times St. Paul uses the word “work” in that same Ephesians (Ephesians 3) to get even more context so we know what KIND of “works” God doesn’t expect and what kind of works God DOES expect of His children?
EPHESIANS 2:8-10, 3:7, 20-21 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. . . .
7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace which was given me by the working of his power. . . . 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
. . . . Don’t you need “preaching” to be justified too?
If preaching is a WORK, and preaching is necessary, than we cannot possibly be justified by faith ALONE.
justification by a mere moment ALONE and justification by faith ALONE
with a verse that explicitly asserts the Catholic position on these same issues. . . .
You seem to deny justification by a moment necessarily followed by a life-long process. You also seem to deny justification by faith AND God working in you.
Again, I found it surprising that you would appeal to a verse that explicitly showed God at WORK in us (saving us using “work”, yes “faith” but explicitly “work” too) and how God later brings that WORK to “completion” suggesting a life-long process (you mean it is NOT complete now?) given your denials of the full Gospel!
PHILIPPIANS 1:6 6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Are you saying that a “work” in this context, saves you?
Are you affirming what St. Paul said in asserting there is something that needs to be “completed” in us that St. Paul can refer to as a “WORK”?
I affirm what St. Paul is saying, but do you?
And if we want to be spiritual children of God, shouldn’t we include the very next time in Philippians that St. Paul mentions “work” so we get an even larger context as to at least have even more detail of what St. Paul means by this “work” that is still necessary to bring us to “completion”?
PHILIPPIANS 1:6, 2:12a And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. . . . 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation (!!!)
WHAT!!!???
WHAT is St. Paul talking about here? We cannot work out our “own salvation” on our own. So HOW can St. Paul possibly think of us as being able to “work out” our “own salvation”?
Well fortunately St. Paul tells us how we can “work out our salvation”. By God WORKING IN US (“for God is at work in you”).
Let’s look at it.
PHILIPPIANS 1:6, 2:12-13 6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. . . . . 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
- Jesus’ WORK on Calvary is applied to our salvation (true)
- Man cannot save himself (also true)
- Men and Women who are now saved, who are now Sons and Daughters of God, MUST work with the Graces we are given WHO lives in us (true)
And you also cited Ephesians 2 in post 9 (here).
I affirm Ephesians 2 also.
But why not look at the next two times St. Paul uses the word “work” in that same Ephesians (Ephesians 3) to get even more context so we know what KIND of “works” God doesn’t expect and what kind of works God DOES expect of His children?
EPHESIANS 2:8-10, 3:7, 20-21 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. . . .
7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace which was given me by the working of his power. . . . 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
- Not our doing (so we cannot boast in ourselves). Check
- Faith. Check
- God created us why? For good works. Check
- Jesus has the power to WORK WITHIN us doing far more abundantly than we ask. Check.
- And this “work” of Jesus IN us, explicitly has to do with “our salvation”. Check.
- And Jesus WILL bring this WORK (future tense) to completion IN US. Check.
. . . . Don’t you need “preaching” to be justified too?
If preaching is a WORK, and preaching is necessary, than we cannot possibly be justified by faith ALONE.
V
VesselofMercy
Guest
That was a very long response, and I can’t reply to all of it.
The overall impression I’m getting from your response though is that you don’t see a difference between justification and sanctification.
Romans 8: 28 - 30,
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
On a different note, I don’t understand how when Jesus says NOBODY you don’t think that means you.
Anyways, here’s a good explanation of sanctification.
desiringgod.org/sermons/god-sanctifies-his-people
And one about how we diminish the work of Christ when we depend on our own righteousness.
desiringgod.org/conference-messages/justification-and-the-diminishing-work-of-christ
You say I’m not believing in the “full gospel”, but I fail to see how your “full gospel” is good news.
The overall impression I’m getting from your response though is that you don’t see a difference between justification and sanctification.
Romans 8: 28 - 30,
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
On a different note, I don’t understand how when Jesus says NOBODY you don’t think that means you.
Anyways, here’s a good explanation of sanctification.
desiringgod.org/sermons/god-sanctifies-his-people
And one about how we diminish the work of Christ when we depend on our own righteousness.
desiringgod.org/conference-messages/justification-and-the-diminishing-work-of-christ
You say I’m not believing in the “full gospel”, but I fail to see how your “full gospel” is good news.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
VesselofMercy. You mentioned:
My post 41 in summary only asserts we cannot save ourselves and we need Jesus’ work on Calvary. But we need Jesus more than we sometimes admit. We need Jesus in our “moment” when we are born again, and we need Jesus at all times forever. Jesus gives us faith which is necessary, but He also works in and through us which is also necessary.
And that people Jesus Himself describes as His “servants” CAN reject the Master’s “talents” that He Himself gives His undeserving “servants” to work with (in Matthew 25). The “Master” of course is Jesus.
I showed a few official Catholic quotes; otherwise invariably somebody on a public thread like this (not you VesselofMercy but some other reader) would accuse me of not putting forth Catholic beliefs on this subject. This preempts their objections and allows us to continue having this very good discussion, and if others want to dovetail in on this aspect they are welcome to do so (but we don’t have to go down these other avenues). No need to respond to my Catholic doctrinal quotes either.
My post 42, was just using the verse you cited earlier (Philippians 1:6) as a springboard for St. Paul teaching the exact same Catholic doctrine on salvation as St. Paul and so many others, have taught for 2000 years.
I also spread throughout posts 41 and 42 many items, which I think we are in agreement with one another basically to show we do have much in common!
I don’t expect you to respond to that either. Much of it was mere observation, not a challenge.
Some response to St. Paul’s teaching, would be good though.
My personal experience in Baptist Sunday School etc. shows it is necessary for Baptists (or other differing Anabaptist belief traditions) to . . .
try to change the words St. Paul says, or
to take one verse and try to pit it against another so as to not believe the verse that didn’t square with their tradition (instead of harmonizing and believing ALL of St. Paul etc.).
Or they would just interpret away the plain meaning of what was said.
I thought that was disingenuous, a truncated mini-gospel, and plain old slipshod Bible exegesis (or disorderly careless Scripture unpacking). This kind of paring down the Gospel is not from those who “delight in the law of the Lord”.
You also mentioned,
But it is funny you would say that I confused “justification” with “sanctification” as I never mentioned anything specifically about “sanctification”.
I even did a word search of the thread for “sanctification” and you were the only one to specifically mention “sanctification”. Why?
The Holy Spirit through St. Paul talks explicitly of “working out your own salvation” and
The Holy Spirit through St. Paul says this is and will be done because God is “at work in you”.
The Holy Spirit didn’t explicitly mention “sanctification” here. He mentioned “salvation” through St. Paul.
Do YOU see an implicit teaching of “sanctification” being at least a “part of our justification” in what St. Paul is teaching (?) when he says . . .
PHILIPPIANS 1:6, 2:12-13 6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. . . . . 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Why would St. Paul elsewhere tell us . . . .
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always
for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning
to be saved, through . . . . (WHAT) . . . ?
St. Paul explicitly says we are saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Reading this from St. Paul would you conclude we are saved by . . . .
A. Belief in the truth ALONE? . . . or . . .
B. Sanctification by the Spirit AND belief in the truth?
But don’t you think it is “good news” that Jesus works in you and through you; and this is part of your “salvation” as St. Paul explicitly teaches?
And don’t you think it is especially “good news” when St. John teaches “nothing unclean” will enter Heaven (Revelation 21:27)?
Why wouldn’t this be good news that Jesus “completes” something in and through us as a “work” of His in and through us along with our belief (which is ALSO a gift as Jesus is the "author and finisher of our faith as Hebrews 12:2 tells us)?
And why wouldn’t it also be “good news” that this WORKING in us and through us is part of the way Jesus brings us to “completion”?
I don’t understand the objection here.
Fair enough. I will summarize my last two posts here:
My post 41 in summary only asserts we cannot save ourselves and we need Jesus’ work on Calvary. But we need Jesus more than we sometimes admit. We need Jesus in our “moment” when we are born again, and we need Jesus at all times forever. Jesus gives us faith which is necessary, but He also works in and through us which is also necessary.
And that people Jesus Himself describes as His “servants” CAN reject the Master’s “talents” that He Himself gives His undeserving “servants” to work with (in Matthew 25). The “Master” of course is Jesus.
I showed a few official Catholic quotes; otherwise invariably somebody on a public thread like this (not you VesselofMercy but some other reader) would accuse me of not putting forth Catholic beliefs on this subject. This preempts their objections and allows us to continue having this very good discussion, and if others want to dovetail in on this aspect they are welcome to do so (but we don’t have to go down these other avenues). No need to respond to my Catholic doctrinal quotes either.
My post 42, was just using the verse you cited earlier (Philippians 1:6) as a springboard for St. Paul teaching the exact same Catholic doctrine on salvation as St. Paul and so many others, have taught for 2000 years.
I also spread throughout posts 41 and 42 many items, which I think we are in agreement with one another basically to show we do have much in common!
I don’t expect you to respond to that either. Much of it was mere observation, not a challenge.
Some response to St. Paul’s teaching, would be good though.
My personal experience in Baptist Sunday School etc. shows it is necessary for Baptists (or other differing Anabaptist belief traditions) to . . .
try to change the words St. Paul says, or
to take one verse and try to pit it against another so as to not believe the verse that didn’t square with their tradition (instead of harmonizing and believing ALL of St. Paul etc.).
Or they would just interpret away the plain meaning of what was said.
I thought that was disingenuous, a truncated mini-gospel, and plain old slipshod Bible exegesis (or disorderly careless Scripture unpacking). This kind of paring down the Gospel is not from those who “delight in the law of the Lord”.
You also mentioned,
Sorry. You are not getting the correct impression then. I do see a difference between “sanctification” and “justification” (as CCC 1989 asserts), although there is a relation of one to another, they are different.
But it is funny you would say that I confused “justification” with “sanctification” as I never mentioned anything specifically about “sanctification”.
I even did a word search of the thread for “sanctification” and you were the only one to specifically mention “sanctification”. Why?
The Holy Spirit through St. Paul talks explicitly of “working out your own salvation” and
The Holy Spirit through St. Paul says this is and will be done because God is “at work in you”.
The Holy Spirit didn’t explicitly mention “sanctification” here. He mentioned “salvation” through St. Paul.
Do YOU see an implicit teaching of “sanctification” being at least a “part of our justification” in what St. Paul is teaching (?) when he says . . .
PHILIPPIANS 1:6, 2:12-13 6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. . . . . 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Why would St. Paul elsewhere tell us . . . .
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always
for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning
to be saved, through . . . . (WHAT) . . . ?
St. Paul explicitly says we are saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Reading this from St. Paul would you conclude we are saved by . . . .
A. Belief in the truth ALONE? . . . or . . .
B. Sanctification by the Spirit AND belief in the truth?
I am just mentioning what St. Paul teaches. This gospel does not originate from me.
But don’t you think it is “good news” that Jesus works in you and through you; and this is part of your “salvation” as St. Paul explicitly teaches?
And don’t you think it is especially “good news” when St. John teaches “nothing unclean” will enter Heaven (Revelation 21:27)?
Why wouldn’t this be good news that Jesus “completes” something in and through us as a “work” of His in and through us along with our belief (which is ALSO a gift as Jesus is the "author and finisher of our faith as Hebrews 12:2 tells us)?
And why wouldn’t it also be “good news” that this WORKING in us and through us is part of the way Jesus brings us to “completion”?
I don’t understand the objection here.
P
Philthy
Guest
Hi Randy -
I agree with your post entirely and I give you a
but I wanted to point out something that requires a little reworking - most especially when speaking with Protestants. Premise 1 uses the phrase “go to Heaven” while the Conclusion switches to “to be saved”. If being saved and going to Heaven were identical, then there would be no problem with the argument as presented. But they are not identical and that is the single biggest obstacle to a rational discussion between Protestants and Catholics on this issue. As Catholics we recognize that some people who are saved fall from grace and, should they die in that state, do NOT go to Heaven. So I think it’d be worth taking the time to use the identical language in both the premise and the conclusion.
I agree with your post entirely and I give you a
but I wanted to point out something that requires a little reworking - most especially when speaking with Protestants. Premise 1 uses the phrase “go to Heaven” while the Conclusion switches to “to be saved”. If being saved and going to Heaven were identical, then there would be no problem with the argument as presented. But they are not identical and that is the single biggest obstacle to a rational discussion between Protestants and Catholics on this issue. As Catholics we recognize that some people who are saved fall from grace and, should they die in that state, do NOT go to Heaven. So I think it’d be worth taking the time to use the identical language in both the premise and the conclusion.Blessings
V
VesselofMercy
Guest
I agree with this, but I would not use the word “necessary”, I would use the word “inevitable” when it comes to works.
This is what I disagree with:
CCC 2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
You are assuming Jesus refers to born again believers and forget that he is speaking to the children of Israel, the Jews.
Leviticus 22:55, “For it is to me that the people of Israel are servants. They are my servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”
I am sorry that this is your experience. I do not doubt that there is a lot of bad teaching out there, or people who try to keep their traditions, making void the Word of God. I completely agree that we should harmonize and believe ALL of scripture.
In my personal experience however, I find that it is Catholics who interpret away the plain meaning of what is said. I have never heard people say so often, “well that really means” both when it comes to Scripture and the Catechism. I have heard them explain away each other’s explanations too, since everyone seems to interpret Catholic doctrine in their own way.
It is not my goal to explain away plain meaning, but rather try to understand seemingly contradictory texts as a whole. Some texts and truths are more plain than others, therefore it means that those that are less clear and more allegorical (like the parable of the talents) should be interpreted in light of the more clear texts (like the doctrines of election in Romans 9-10).
I agree that they are different, but I’m not so sure the CCC does.
CCC 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.
I brought it up because the way you were describing justification sounded like you were writing about sanctification. Justification is a moment of being declared forgiven and righteous before God when we are born again and given the gift of faith through His grace (Romans 8:1, 33-34, Colossians 2:13-14), sanctification is process we go through after we have already been justified.
Working out your own salvation. You are working it out, not for it, and it is “YOUR OWN” salvation. It is already yours.
Are you talking about Philippians 1:6, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”
Or Philippians 2: 12b-13, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure”
Like I said, it is a salvation that you have already obtained (through justification) and God is the one who is doing the real work here!
V
VesselofMercy
Guest
Not a “part of justification” but rather a result of our justification.
Paul also tells us that “Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.” 1 Timothy 2:15
Does this mean that a woman needs to have children to be saved? Or perhaps ‘saved’ in these contexts mean the process of sanctification. I think that Paul uses them synonymously. In the verse you quoted he uses the word ‘saved’ first, and clarifies by saying 'through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
Because he also says in Titus 3:4-7:
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit(being born again) whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
V
VesselofMercy
Guest
Ahhh…and this is where the word ‘saved’ gets confusing. There is a difference between getting saved ‘through’ something, and getting saved ‘by’ something. I believe that when Paul says ‘by’ he is referring to our salvation, and when he says ‘through’ he is referring to our sanctification.
You asked what we are saved ‘by’ and the answer is,
Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
and Titus 3:4-6, “But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior”
My objection is to nothing that you have written here, but rather to the point you made in your previous post that we can indefinitely reject the work of the Holy Spirit even if He indwells us, and that we can snatch ourselves out of Jesus’ hand. That is not good news. Because if you could lose your salvation, you would. The joy and assurance of salvation comes not from relying on your own faithfulness, but rather on the faithfulness of God.
Here’s the thing, I don’t think we’re going to change each other’s minds on this. The fact of the matter is, I have nothing to lose by being wrong. I am born again, therefore I do good works, I love doing good works, and I believe that I will continue to do good works. And when I do, I give all the glory to God and do it out of love and gratitude for Him because of the wonderful gift of salvation He has given me.
However, you have everything to lose by being wrong. If a person is not able to reject the working of the Holy Spirit who indwells Him, and if being born again absolutely results in salvation and good works, then you have no explanation for the evidence you see of the sacraments not working. Because let’s face it, there are a lot of Catholics who have been “born again” and “sealed with the Holy Spirit” through the sacraments of baptism and confirmation who have no fruit in their lives whatsoever. In fact, many of them passionately hate God or are even atheists. So if what the Bible says is true, that those who are born again will not be lost, what explanation do you have?
No, you HAVE to read the Bible to see what you want to see, otherwise your Catholic world will fall apart.
When I had my conversion I wanted to stay Catholic, but more than that I wanted to know the truth. It hurt when what I read contradicted the doctrines I’d been raised to believe, but the truth was more important to me than keeping the traditions of my childhood. As a Catholic, you read the Bible thinking you already know the truth, that’s why you can’t see it when you read it.
V
VesselofMercy
Guest
And another note,
Reading what you wrote again, I wonder if you understand “in**** us and through us” to mean in and through our own merit and will? If so, I think that you are right that our sanctification is carried out in part through our choices to obey God, however He keeps all the glory and merit because He is the one doing the work and by His Spirit changing our will so that we desire to do the good works that “He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them”. Ephesians 2:10 And it is the merit of Christ that paid for all of it, not our own.
Reading what you wrote again, I wonder if you understand “in**** us and through us” to mean in and through our own merit and will? If so, I think that you are right that our sanctification is carried out in part through our choices to obey God, however He keeps all the glory and merit because He is the one doing the work and by His Spirit changing our will so that we desire to do the good works that “He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them”. Ephesians 2:10 And it is the merit of Christ that paid for all of it, not our own.
C
Christian50
Guest
Hello Cathoholic and VesselofMercy,
The following teachings of the Catholic Church might help you to reconcile with each other.
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be saved?
We are NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize added.
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.
4.3/25 We confess together that sinners are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of FAITH is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4.3/27.The Catholic understanding also sees FAITH as FUNDAMENTAL in justification. FOR WITHOUT FAITH, NO JUSTIFICATION CAN TAKE PLACE. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION. End quote. Emphasize added.
CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be already SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.
Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize added.
God bless.
Christian
The following teachings of the Catholic Church might help you to reconcile with each other.
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be saved?
We are NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize added.
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.
4.3/25 We confess together that sinners are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of FAITH is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4.3/27.The Catholic understanding also sees FAITH as FUNDAMENTAL in justification. FOR WITHOUT FAITH, NO JUSTIFICATION CAN TAKE PLACE. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION. End quote. Emphasize added.
CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be already SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.
Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize added.
God bless.
Christian
C
Cathoholic
Guest
VesselofMercy. You cited Titus 3:5, apparently to allege justification by faith alone. Yet it does no such thing.
Titus 3:5 tells us we can do nothing to earn Jesus’ work on our behalf (and HOW He saved us)
This verse explains to us WHY Jesus saved us . . . and . . . in a sense HOW Jesus saves us.
TITUS 3:5 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit . . .
God the Father did NOT say:
“Well Jesus, people are just so deserving down there on earth, therefore I am sending you down to earth as a man to save them “BECAUSE of deeds done by them in righteousness.”
That’s all Titus 3:5 means VesselofMercy—just what it says it means.
It doesn’t say anything about justification of faith ALONE.
Do YOU think it means (?):
God the Father did saying to Jesus: “Well Jesus, people are just so deserving down there on earth, therefore I am sending you down to earth as a man to save them “BECAUSE of their FAITH by them in righteousness?”
No. Of course not.
All the verse means, is just what it says.
You and I both agree there is NOTHING that we can do to earn our salvation.
(You DO affirm that don’t you VesselofMercy?)
I also affirm I have been saved by the “washing of regeneration” (Titus 3:5). And this being “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) or “washing of regeneration” (Titus 3:5) is a gift from Christ that He earned. John 3:5/Titus 3:5 are inter-related aren’t they? John 3:5/Titus 3:5.
But ONCE Jesus IS IN US, we NEED to bear fruit (WITH HIM, not on our own) that will last
Yet once we are the “Servants of the Master”, once we are given undeserved “talents”, . . .
. . . . we still have the freedom to reject being servants of the Master and decide to quit serving the Master and be slothful as Jesus warns us.
And Jesus talks of this NOT in the context merely of Old Covenant Israel, but in the context of HIM, Jesus as the Master.
You DO affirm Jesus is “the son of man”, you do affirm Jesus as the “Master” in Matthew 25 don’t you VesselofMercy?
MATTHEW 25:20-21, 24-26a, 30-31 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ . . . 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! . . . 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ 31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Notice Jesus Himself refers to this guy as His “servant” (you wicked and slothful SERVANT). Jesus is talking about “servants” of the “Master”. The context is “serving” the “Son of man”. That is Jesus.
We CAN CHOOSE to ignore the “talents” we were given, and choose not multiply these talents (through God’s grace). “Servants” of the “Master” can choose to be slothful.
You seem to have rejected all of these verses asserting that this merely had to do with Old Testament Israel (partial truth) and NOT us (which would be false).
Or you are DENYING JESUS as the “Master” and “Son of man”!?
I asked you this . . .
St. Paul explicitly says we are saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
I then asked this . . . .
Reading this from St. Paul would you conclude we are saved by . . . .
A. Belief in the truth ALONE? . . . or . . .
B. Sanctification by the Spirit AND belief in the truth?
And you answered with this (bold and ul mine) . . .
And WHY would you appeal to Ephesians 2:8 to support justification by faith alone when St. Paul uses “through” there? It seems to contradict your own “by” and “through” rule.
EPHESIANS 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God
WHY not just believe ALL of what St. Paul (or “Paul”) says VesselofMercy?
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Titus 3:5 tells us we can do nothing to earn Jesus’ work on our behalf (and HOW He saved us)
This verse explains to us WHY Jesus saved us . . . and . . . in a sense HOW Jesus saves us.
TITUS 3:5 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit . . .
God the Father did NOT say:
“Well Jesus, people are just so deserving down there on earth, therefore I am sending you down to earth as a man to save them “BECAUSE of deeds done by them in righteousness.”
That’s all Titus 3:5 means VesselofMercy—just what it says it means.
It doesn’t say anything about justification of faith ALONE.
Do YOU think it means (?):
God the Father did saying to Jesus: “Well Jesus, people are just so deserving down there on earth, therefore I am sending you down to earth as a man to save them “BECAUSE of their FAITH by them in righteousness?”
No. Of course not.
All the verse means, is just what it says.
You and I both agree there is NOTHING that we can do to earn our salvation.
(You DO affirm that don’t you VesselofMercy?)
I also affirm I have been saved by the “washing of regeneration” (Titus 3:5). And this being “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) or “washing of regeneration” (Titus 3:5) is a gift from Christ that He earned. John 3:5/Titus 3:5 are inter-related aren’t they? John 3:5/Titus 3:5.
But ONCE Jesus IS IN US, we NEED to bear fruit (WITH HIM, not on our own) that will last
Yet once we are the “Servants of the Master”, once we are given undeserved “talents”, . . .
. . . . we still have the freedom to reject being servants of the Master and decide to quit serving the Master and be slothful as Jesus warns us.
And Jesus talks of this NOT in the context merely of Old Covenant Israel, but in the context of HIM, Jesus as the Master.
You DO affirm Jesus is “the son of man”, you do affirm Jesus as the “Master” in Matthew 25 don’t you VesselofMercy?
MATTHEW 25:20-21, 24-26a, 30-31 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ . . . 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! . . . 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ 31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Notice Jesus Himself refers to this guy as His “servant” (you wicked and slothful SERVANT). Jesus is talking about “servants” of the “Master”. The context is “serving” the “Son of man”. That is Jesus.
We CAN CHOOSE to ignore the “talents” we were given, and choose not multiply these talents (through God’s grace). “Servants” of the “Master” can choose to be slothful.
You seem to have rejected all of these verses asserting that this merely had to do with Old Testament Israel (partial truth) and NOT us (which would be false).
Or you are DENYING JESUS as the “Master” and “Son of man”!?
I asked you this . . .
St. Paul explicitly says we are saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
I then asked this . . . .
Reading this from St. Paul would you conclude we are saved by . . . .
A. Belief in the truth ALONE? . . . or . . .
B. Sanctification by the Spirit AND belief in the truth?
And you answered with this (bold and ul mine) . . .
Then please show me the verse that says: “when Paul says ‘by’ he is referring to our salvation, and when he says ‘through’ he is referring to our sanctification.”
And WHY would you appeal to Ephesians 2:8 to support justification by faith alone when St. Paul uses “through” there? It seems to contradict your own “by” and “through” rule.
EPHESIANS 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God
WHY not just believe ALL of what St. Paul (or “Paul”) says VesselofMercy?
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
C
Christian50
Guest
Hello Cathoholic and VesselofMercy,
The following teachings of the Catholic Church might help you to reconcile with each other.
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be saved?
We are NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize added.
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.
4.3/25 We confess together that sinners are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of FAITH is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4.3/27.The Catholic understanding also sees FAITH as FUNDAMENTAL in justification. FOR WITHOUT FAITH, NO JUSTIFICATION CAN TAKE PLACE. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION. End quote. Emphasize added.
CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be already SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.
Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize added.
God bless.
Christian
The following teachings of the Catholic Church might help you to reconcile with each other.
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be saved?
We are NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize added.
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.
4.3/25 We confess together that sinners are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of FAITH is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4.3/27.The Catholic understanding also sees FAITH as FUNDAMENTAL in justification. FOR WITHOUT FAITH, NO JUSTIFICATION CAN TAKE PLACE. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION. End quote. Emphasize added.
CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be already SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.
Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize added.
God bless.
Christian
C
Cathoholic
Guest
VesselofMercy. You said:
But “Faithfulness of God” to give us “faith” AND “charity” (and hope), not just faith ALONE.
And all of these gifts are necessary.
You only seem to believe part of this Biblical message VesselofMercy. And I am suggesting you affirm MORE Scripture.
And He will persist in these gifts as you have asserted. But ALSO He won’t force us in these gifts.
**
We can CHOOSE to cut ourselves off from the Vine—Jesus.**
You said:
Lets take John 15 (bold & ul mine).
**Would you say in John 15:1-2a that Jesus is talking here about people who . . . **
A. Were NEVER in Jesus in the first place? . . . . Or . . . .
B. People who are “IN ME” (IN Jesus).
JOHN 15:1-2a (NIV) “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit . . .
**Would you say that in John 15:3 Jesus is discussing . . . **
People who were NEVER in Jesus in the first place? . . . . Or . . . .
People who are “already clean” (IN Jesus).
JOHN 15:2-4a (NIV) 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
**Would you say that in John 15:4 Jesus is discussing . . . **
People who were NEVER in Jesus in the first place? . . . . Or . . . .
People who are IN Jesus, but they have to REMAIN IN JESUS (you cannot “remain” IN—Jesus if you were never in Jesus in the first place can you?)
JOHN 15:3-4 (NIV) 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
**Would you say that in John 15:6a when Jesus is warning those who
“do not REMAIN IN ME”, is Jesus discussing . . . **
A null set? NOBODY can be in Jesus and NOT “Remain” in Jesus. “This message Jesus gives here is for nobody”! . . . . Or . . . .
There are people who are IN Jesus, but on their own volition choose to “do not remain in me” (choose not to REMAIN IN Jesus). “This message is for people who are in-Jesus, but a warning to them that may choose not to REMAIN IN Me REMAIN IN-Jesus or as Jesus says, "If you do not remain in me”.
JOHN 15:5-6a (NIV) 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, . . . .
If you do not remain in me (notice Jesus thinks you can choose NOT to remain IN Him), you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
JOHN 15:6 (NIV) 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Listen carefully to the words of Jesus here VesselofMercy . . .
Considering John 15:6 when Jesus warns that people who do not REMAIN IN Him, are cast aside or “thrown into the fire and burned”.
**Would you say . . **
“These guys who get tossed into the fire to be burned, are not REALLY done so. They are still in-Jesus and saved. They are merely backsliding.” . . . . OR . . . .
“If you do not remain in me (Jesus), you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”
**JOHN 15:5-6 (NIV) ** 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
JOHN 15:1-6 (NIV) “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
I will paraphrase a Catholic on a Protestant radio show when he said: “Apart from Jesus you can do nothing . . . but with Him, you can do some stuff.”
“Faithfulness of God” to be sure.
But “Faithfulness of God” to give us “faith” AND “charity” (and hope), not just faith ALONE.
And all of these gifts are necessary.
You only seem to believe part of this Biblical message VesselofMercy. And I am suggesting you affirm MORE Scripture.
And He will persist in these gifts as you have asserted. But ALSO He won’t force us in these gifts.
**
We can CHOOSE to cut ourselves off from the Vine—Jesus.**
You said:
OK. At the risk of me having my "Catholic world fall apart”, let’s keep going through Sacred Scripture VesselofMercy.
Lets take John 15 (bold & ul mine).
**Would you say in John 15:1-2a that Jesus is talking here about people who . . . **
A. Were NEVER in Jesus in the first place? . . . . Or . . . .
B. People who are “IN ME” (IN Jesus).
JOHN 15:1-2a (NIV) “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit . . .
**Would you say that in John 15:3 Jesus is discussing . . . **
People who were NEVER in Jesus in the first place? . . . . Or . . . .
People who are “already clean” (IN Jesus).
JOHN 15:2-4a (NIV) 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
**Would you say that in John 15:4 Jesus is discussing . . . **
People who were NEVER in Jesus in the first place? . . . . Or . . . .
People who are IN Jesus, but they have to REMAIN IN JESUS (you cannot “remain” IN—Jesus if you were never in Jesus in the first place can you?)
JOHN 15:3-4 (NIV) 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
**Would you say that in John 15:6a when Jesus is warning those who
“do not REMAIN IN ME”, is Jesus discussing . . . **
A null set? NOBODY can be in Jesus and NOT “Remain” in Jesus. “This message Jesus gives here is for nobody”! . . . . Or . . . .
There are people who are IN Jesus, but on their own volition choose to “do not remain in me” (choose not to REMAIN IN Jesus). “This message is for people who are in-Jesus, but a warning to them that may choose not to REMAIN IN Me REMAIN IN-Jesus or as Jesus says, "If you do not remain in me”.
JOHN 15:5-6a (NIV) 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, . . . .
If you do not remain in me (notice Jesus thinks you can choose NOT to remain IN Him), you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
JOHN 15:6 (NIV) 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Listen carefully to the words of Jesus here VesselofMercy . . .
Considering John 15:6 when Jesus warns that people who do not REMAIN IN Him, are cast aside or “thrown into the fire and burned”.
**Would you say . . **
“These guys who get tossed into the fire to be burned, are not REALLY done so. They are still in-Jesus and saved. They are merely backsliding.” . . . . OR . . . .
“If you do not remain in me (Jesus), you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”
**JOHN 15:5-6 (NIV) ** 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
JOHN 15:1-6 (NIV) “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
I will paraphrase a Catholic on a Protestant radio show when he said: “Apart from Jesus you can do nothing . . . but with Him, you can do some stuff.”
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
When I wrote “in order to be saved”, I was thinking of “final” salvation (and thus heaven).Hi Randy -
I agree with your post entirely and I give you a
Blessings
However, you are thinking that someone can be saved but then lose that salvation (and thus hell).
Is that what you have in mind?
C
Cathoholic
Guest
VesselofMercy. As we have been having our discussion, you summarized YOUR experiences with Catholicism, (which is fine) so I suppose it is appropriate for me to share my experiences also as we continue on in this good discussion.
My frequent personal experience in Baptist Sunday School, etc.
I thought it was appropriate to share my experiences just as you did (and I have touched on some of them earlier just as you had too). Why? Because many times this effects how we view certain doctrines—ESPECIALLY this doctrine (salvation) in my experience.
So I think our experiences, are certainly relevant to the discussion of salvation, especially here on this thread.
I will soon try to touch on 1st John that you brought up earlier too. You will find I agree with all the verses you brought up (more common ground, so that is good too). I think your conclusions though were not based entirely on 1st John (or anywhere else in Scripture but I will detail that in a different post).
My frequent personal experience in Baptist Sunday School, etc.
- Changing the words of Scripture (often St. Paul) to mean something different than the verse says
- Taking one verse and try to pit it against another verse instead of harmonizing and believing ALL the related verses (Yet God is NOT the author of confusion as 1st Corinthians 14:33 teaches. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself)
- Just interpret-away the plain meaning of the Scripture text
- Appeal to personal emotions for Bible exegesis (“I knew I was Spirit-filled because I just felt it, therefore I am correct in my Bible interpretations”—this gets REAL interesting when two Baptists who doctrinally disagree with each other resort to doing this to one another)
- Denigrate any-and-all “tradition” while ignoring the fact that Scripture
refers to Scripture itself as “tradition” (2nd Thessalonians 2:15) - When a question cannot be answered, talk louder or walk-away ignoring the issue (Sometimes the talking “louder” even morphs into a “southern accent” like TV televangelists often had back then)
- Bird-shot multiple distantly-related issues (to ignore dealing with the issue at hand)
- Ignore the Early Christian Church Fathers and St. Paul’s admonition to “test all things and hold to
what is good” (as 1st Thessalonians 5:21 says) - Appeal to an “I feel sorry for YOU because . . . (fill in the reason)” fallacy (also known as an argumentum ad miserecordiam fallacy)
- Invent even more traditions that have never been part of Christianity (like getting a little card with a date written in on it saying that is the day you were saved—nothing wrong per se with getting a card acknowledging you said a prayer, but just a non-Biblical invention that’s all).
- Baptist acceptance of authoritative Oral Tradition but DENYING it (even when it is obvious)
- Shrug their shoulders and say: “Well I guess the ONLY important thing is that we believe in Jesus” (and when I immediately affirm that is necessary, but ask where the “ONLY” part is; you know what happens . . . go to any of the other points above—but no Scripture verses have ever been given with the “ONLY” in it).
I thought it was appropriate to share my experiences just as you did (and I have touched on some of them earlier just as you had too). Why? Because many times this effects how we view certain doctrines—ESPECIALLY this doctrine (salvation) in my experience.
So I think our experiences, are certainly relevant to the discussion of salvation, especially here on this thread.
I will soon try to touch on 1st John that you brought up earlier too. You will find I agree with all the verses you brought up (more common ground, so that is good too). I think your conclusions though were not based entirely on 1st John (or anywhere else in Scripture but I will detail that in a different post).
J
jameswalter
Guest
Vessel
If you were raised Catholic you were born again at Baptism, the word “born” is used when describing what happens when you receive the water and Spirit at your Catholic baptism. Upon an age of reasoning you confirmed this at your confirmation, unless you lied to God that day. Then you later began your relationship with Jesus Christ on a new level and I pray will some day find him in the Church he gave you.
There is never any reason to boast in any Catholics life I assure you. If you or your family or friends boasted repentance is in order. You will be forgiven.
The beautiful verse from Ephesians clearly does not claim you can be saved by faith alone, if it did it would contradict the truth God revealed elsewhere in the scriptures. You don’t believe that do you? This verse tells me that we are save by faith through Grace, as the Catholic Church has taught for 2,000 years. It further says that you you have your faith because of Grace NOT Works. Again its not claiming you are saved by faith alone but rather that your faith is a result of Grace your given freely by God, not something you earned by works. See James and letters to John and even Paul’s epistles to understand that a dead faith (one without works) is not going to save you.
Don’t mix Ephesians 2:10 into the faith and works argument, its simply telling you not to boast about the faith you have because it was a gift from God. I made that mistake before finding the truth about RC.
Blessed day!
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
I read somewhere:
If I have faith as to move mountains, but have no love… I am nothing.
That’s a pretty strong faith if it can move mountains… and still… without love… means nothing.
Faith without works is dead.
If that is not clear enough, I don’t know what is.
Faith, Hope and Love abide, but the greatest of them all is Love.
Just in case we didn’t get it the first time
And the strongest of them all:
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
It’s much more than faith and works. We could not have any of those 2 without Grace and Love to begin with.
If I have faith as to move mountains, but have no love… I am nothing.
That’s a pretty strong faith if it can move mountains… and still… without love… means nothing.
Faith without works is dead.
If that is not clear enough, I don’t know what is.
Faith, Hope and Love abide, but the greatest of them all is Love.
Just in case we didn’t get it the first time
And the strongest of them all:
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
It’s much more than faith and works. We could not have any of those 2 without Grace and Love to begin with.
J
jameswalter
Guest
You have really confused me Vessel
You claim that God predestines us to eternity because we lack the free will to choose him as our Lord and Savior? You claim free will is only used to reject God? What or Whom forced you to accept him as your savior? Don’t you rather see God as your Father and Creator that wants you to choose and accept him freely? Which denomination are you may I ask? This is new to me.
Why do you think the term used here is “born” rather than something like “reformed” or “born again” as many protestants use? You are born once physically and once spiritually there is no second birth of either and death of only the former birth. Did you choose to be born physically? No, hence the term indicating you had no choice in being born. Spiritually then, you say you did not choose Jesus as your Lord and Savior because your free will was not in play. So you believe in a God that only gives spiritual birth to some of his created human beings and you have never willfully accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Sounds like you need prayers and charitable dialogue from your fellow Catholics. Hope you post often and read slowly its easy to miss the importance stuff. For example above, when you think of or hear the words “Word of God” the first thing in your mind should be the “Word Made Flesh” which God’s chosen people are called to eat as our daily bread.
Love your passion for the scriptures!!
JA
C
Cathoholic
Guest
VesselofMercy. You appealed (here) to 1st John to allegedly show justification by faith ALONE . . . .
But none of them say the word “alone” with regards to salvation, and none of them teach Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS, or Eternal Security, or any other “you are not free to reject your salvation" variations we see among the various Baptist traditions that they argue about with each other).
As a matter-of-fact, not only do the verses not have the word “alone” in them, they don’t even have the word “faith” in them either!
Is “faith” implied? I think it is. But I don’t understand why you would appeal to verses that don’t even have the word “faith” in them to assert “justification by FAITH alone” from them.
The Word “FAITH” Is Not Even Explicitly Mentioned in Verses Cited
to Support Justification by Faith ALONE
Here IS what St. John DOES teach (from the verses you cited)
I will await your response on this and take it from there.
I will try to look at the OSAS aspect of the verses in 1st John soon too.
And you appealed to 1st John to presumably show Eternal Security.
To support these premises, you cited the following verses from 1st John (not in this order) . . . .
Thank you for referencing these wonderful verses.
But none of them say the word “alone” with regards to salvation, and none of them teach Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS, or Eternal Security, or any other “you are not free to reject your salvation" variations we see among the various Baptist traditions that they argue about with each other).
As a matter-of-fact, not only do the verses not have the word “alone” in them, they don’t even have the word “faith” in them either!
Is “faith” implied? I think it is. But I don’t understand why you would appeal to verses that don’t even have the word “faith” in them to assert “justification by FAITH alone” from them.
The Word “FAITH” Is Not Even Explicitly Mentioned in Verses Cited
to Support Justification by Faith ALONE
Here IS what St. John DOES teach (from the verses you cited)
- My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin
- Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
- No one born of God makes a practice of sinning
- let us love one another
- the love of God, that we keep his commandments
I will await your response on this and take it from there.
I will try to look at the OSAS aspect of the verses in 1st John soon too.
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