On Salvation by Faith and Works

[VesselofMercy]

Cathoholic,

I have neither the time nor the inclination to continue arguing with you. Heck! I don’t even know what we’re arguing about anymore!

You accuse me of not taking all of Paul’s teaching into account but I could say the same thing about you.

I think what the main difference is, is that I read the parts of the Bible that seem to say that we need works to be saved in light of the ones that say we don’t, and you read the verses that claim the born again believer, the child of God will never perish in light of the ones that seem to say they won’t. We could argue point by point verse by verse for years and never change each other’s minds.

The fact of the matter is I do believe my theology is biblical. Not only that but I love it. I love how big and mighty and sovereign the God of the Bible is. Because I’m not working for my salvation my work is a joy and to the glory of Him and Him alone. I can’t wait to be with Him and praise Him all of my days for the wonderful works He has done. I know I can make it through anything in this life because of Him and I have already made it through times of deep and dark depression knowing that even though I felt like a failure in every aspect of my life that He was holding on to me, and that He would see me through it. I am not afraid of what I may face in this life because He is my everything and I know I can trust Him to work ALL things for my good and to His glory.

I know this sounds crazy (and I haven’t always felt this way), but I am not even afraid of going to Hell. Now don’t get me wrong, I really don’t want to go to Hell, but I know if I do that it is a just sentence, and the important thing is that God will still be glorified. That’s what I care about more than my own salvation, His Glory.

So you’re not going to convince me to make less of Him and more of me. Every day when I read my Bible I am more convinced of His sovereignty and the assurance of my salvation, and that the whole story is about Him, not anyone else. And you’re not going to convince me that when I do what is right and when I obey Him that I merit anything or am somehow working for my salvation.

So, this is the end of arguing for me. I don’t believe it’s bearing much fruit for either of us (although I have been praying and reading my Bible even more than usual!)

And I do want to ask you Cathoholic, do you know this Jesus? Is this the Jesus you serve? Because this is the Jesus of the Bible. youtube.com/watch?v=VeKgfUGtcI0 Or when you meet Him face to face are you going to say “Lord, Lord, look at all the wonderful things I did in Your name” and He will say “I never knew you.”?

I am willing to continue chatting if you would like to PM me or email me, but I find the forum template difficult to work with, and that this particular discussion is like trying to change each other’s branches while ignoring the roots.

 

[jameswalter]

V easel
This forum is important to the many who choose not to post or participate other than by reading.
The dialogue is important to evangelizing and I would urge you to continue if you have the time and energy. It is valuable.
Thanks,JA

 

[Cathoholic]

VesselofMercy. I am not trying to be rude and I will reply to your post 59 soon. Most of below was written (but not posted) last night.

---

Now lets look at the OSAS aspect of the verses in 1st John.

1 John 2:1, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

OK. You and I both concur if we sin, we have an advocate.

But don’t we ALSO need to repent of that sin (which is likewise, a grace of the advocate that we “MAY” not infallibly “WILL” receive and accept—see 2nd Timothy 2:25).

We have something to DO. Repent and if we sin, and continue to repent when we sin (with God’s grace of course).

1 John 2:29, “If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.”

This is classic Catholic doctrine. I have already reaffirmed this. Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

Everyone who practices righteousness; HAS been born of God (otherwise they couldn’t possibly “practice righteousness” could they?).

It might LOOK good, but “apart from Me [Jesus] you can do nothing” as I asserted in John 15:5 (here) when Jesus is warning people who are ALREADY IN HIM incidentally).

But you can’t just assert because “everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him”, excludes the fact that they have the freedom to REJECT that Vine that he/she is in.

You cannot assert that because the verse not only doesn’t say that, but you will be contradicting Jesus (Jesus says, “Remain IN ME” here) and taking one verse and try to pit it against another verse instead of harmonizing and believing ALL the related verses.

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love."

This is also classic Catholic doctrine. St. Paul tells us “so faith, hope, love, abide these three . . .” (in 1st Corinthians 13).

But then St. Paul tells us something that contradicts justification by faith ALONE.

If St. Paul believed justification by faith ALONE, he OUGHT to say . . . “so faith, hope, love, abide these three, but the greatest of these is faith because you are justified by faith ALONE and after all, what could be more important to you than your justification.”

**But St. Paul doesn’t say that! **

What does he REALLY say?

**
So faith, hope, love, abide these three, but the greatest of these is LOVE! **

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3, 13 2 and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Do you agree with Catholic doctrine, that the virtue of “love” is greater than the virtue of “faith”?

And this cannot merely be a “false faith” otherwise St. Paul would NOT tell us to “abide” in it in context.

You don’t think St. Paul wants us to “abide” in a false faith do you?

Is the charity here a “false charity” too? No.

The verses you cited concerning OSAS are all contingent or conditional upon other things and you failed to mention these OTHER aspects of 1st John too, which the Holy Spirit ALSO inspired him to write.

(I’ll put more of those contingencies that St. John lists in this letter up soon too).

Let’s look at one of those contingencies that St. John wrote of, and you even mentioned a couple of them but for whatever reason, did not apply them to the tradition of OSAS.

Continued . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

Continued from last post

Let’s look at one of those contingencies that St. John wrote of, and you even mentioned a couple of them but for whatever reason, did not apply them to the tradition of OSAS.

1st JOHN 1:4-6 4 And we are writing this that our joy may be complete. 5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;

Notice what St. John DOESN’T say:

NOT 1st JOHN 1 (PHANTOM VERSE) 5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you guys, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If you guys say you have fellowship with him while you guys walk in darkness, you lie and do not live according to the truth;

Notice St. John applies this contingency to HIMSELF, not just “those guys”.

St. John applies this warning to HIMSELF!

St. John doesn’t see OSAS.

Nor does hardly anyone in Scripture except the devil and perhaps the Pharisees

GENESIS 3:4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman"

(or the Pharisees as St. John the Baptist warns them in Matthew 3:8-9)

MATTHEW 3:8-9 Bear fruit that befits repentance, and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

St. John the Evangelist in 1st John 1:6 sees the possibility of HIMSELF being in the Vine, but not remaining in the Vine and says, If WE (not YOU) “walk in darkness”.

Notice St. John thinks he COULD “walk in darkness”. He applies this to himself!

St. Paul applies this warning to himself too incidentally. St. Paul says that he himself could be “disqualified for the prize”!

1st CORINTHIANS 9:27 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

The Greek word for “disqualified” or literally “rejected” is (Greek) “adokimos” which if you do a word study, you will see this word used for people who will not receive salvation.

1st CORINTHIANS 9:27 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be (“adokimos”) disqualified for the prize.

• Jesus explicitly teaches against OSAS (see here)
• St. John the Evangelist doesn’t believe in the tradition of OSAS.
• St. John the Baptist doesn’t believe in the tradition of OSAS.
• St. Paul doesn’t believe in the tradition of OSAS.
• Neither should we believe in the tradition of OSAS!

St. John the Evangelist has other warnings in 1st John too and I will try to get to those soon (God willing).

I will also soon respond to your last post, but these issues you raised on this thread (which are appropriate to raise incidentally) now need to be dealt with as there may be many readers “lurking” here (so I will focus on mostly the “issues” raised, but I don’t want their faith hurt by ignoring these issues raised either).

 

[Lucy107]

Like I said, it is a salvation that you have already obtained (through justification) and God is the one who is doing the real work here!

I once spoke to a Protestant about this topic.

I asked him
“How do you know that you are going to be saved?
How do you know that you are never again going to do anything that could put your salvation into jeopardy?”

He said that he is sure of his salvation because Jesus payed for his sins.
I asked him the same questions several times, and he kept replying in the same way. Like he wasn’t hearing what I was asking him.

My objection is to nothing that you have written here, but rather to the point you made in your previous post that we can indefinitely reject the work of the Holy Spirit even if He indwells us, and that we can snatch ourselves out of Jesus’ hand. That is not good news.

Why would that not be good news?

Because if you could lose your salvation, you would.

Really? Now that is a rather lowly way to view humanity, and of God, for making it so.

The joy and assurance of salvation comes not from relying on your own faithfulness, but rather on the faithfulness of God.

I think a view like that underplays the role of human free will, and the extent to which humans are willing to defy God.

In this sense, Catholicism seems scarier than other forms of Christianity, because it acknowledges human free will to an extent that others don’t.

And in this sense, Catholicism also requires more vigilance and introspection than the others do.

A Catholic can never really kick back and relax, thinking that “God will do all the work, and God will be faithful, even if I’m not faithful.”

 

[Lucy107]

As far as I understood, an analogy to illustrate the difference between Catholicism and some other forms of Christianity could be this:

Per Catholicism, God builds the bridge between the individual and Himself, but the individual needs to walk over the bridge himself.

Per some other forms of Christianity, God builds the bridge between the individual and Himself, and then carries the individual over the bridge too.

 

[Cathoholic]

VesselofMercy.

You said:

Heck! I don’t even know what we’re arguing about anymore! . . . So, this is the end of arguing for me.

Sorry about that. I am not trying to “argue” in the sense of a proverbial “food fight”.

I am only trying to have a discussion on the issues here.

You also said:

I am willing to continue chatting if you would like to PM me or email me, but I find the forum template difficult to work with

Fair enough.

I will not attempt to address you here on this thread VesselofMercy, except for the ideas already brought out by you (with appropriate quotes from you so far, etc.).

---

You also stated:

And I do want to ask you Cathoholic, do you know this Jesus? Is this the Jesus you serve? Because this is the Jesus of the Bible. youtube.com/watch?v=VeKgfUGtcI0

1st CORINTHIANS 4:3 (NIV) I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.

Every day when I read my Bible I am more convinced of His sovereignty and the assurance of my salvation, and that the whole story is about Him, not anyone else.

I reviewed the whole video from the youtube link and the author (Author = “Truth Endures”, featuring Dr. John Piper titled: “The Supremacy of Christ (Sermon Jam) - John Piper”) DID attack the sovereignty of Jesus in the video in my opinion.

Some of it was OK. But some of the video was terrible. It was subtle. It was sneaky. But an attack upon the power of Jesus it was.

Since other readers of the thread may have ALSO unfortunately seen the video, I will explain WHY the video in my opinion, seriously distorts Jesus. I will also state why I think the video makes Jesus’ power out to be a proverbial munchkin of what it is, and also paints a false Jesus who has NOT love and care, for ALL of His creation.

There are many truths in it, but some very serious flaws as well and as I said ATTACKS on our Lord Jesus’ power that I could discern (which I will eventually address here—God willing).

You also mentioned:

. . . I really don’t want to go to Hell, but I know if I do that it is a just sentence . . . Every day when I read my Bible I am more convinced of . . . the assurance of my salvation.

The part of your “assurance” of your salvation is great too. I don’t mean to diminish that in any way. But the “assurance” in the Bible, is a moral assurance, and not an infallible unconditional “assurance”.

Our “assurance” is contingent or conditional. Even some of the verses you have quoted show that.

I want to quote Karl Keating, who discusses the “assurance” aspect of Scripture with another person and his analysis thereof, as I haven’t seen a better summation (I may be changing paragraph spacing for syntax purposes as I received this unformatted). . . .

"Perilously close to the Catholic position"

After giving a parish seminar, I was approached by a Fundamentalist who said he believed in an absolute assurance of salvation: accept Christ as Lord and Savior, and your salvation is a sure thing. I posed a hypothetical to him:

Let’s say your minister became a “born-again Christian” at the age of 15. Now he is 75. In the intervening 60 years the man has lived an exemplary life. So far as he or anyone else knows, he never has committed a single serious sin.

But then, at age 75, comes a change. During one horrible day, he robs a bank, deliberately runs over a cat with his car, commits adultery, blasphemes loudly in public, murders a neighbor, and then commits suicide, dying unrepentant.

My question to the Fundamentalist: Does your minister go to heaven or hell? “To hell, of course,” he replied. “No one committing such sins and not repenting of them would go to heaven.”

“But I noted that the minister was a born-again Christian, which means, by your principles, that he should be guaranteed entrance to heaven.”

“He wasn’t born again.”

“Yes, he was, as I stated at the beginning.”

“No, he wasn’t,” the Fundamentalist said in an insistent tone.

“Now wait a minute,” I answered. “This is my hypothetical. I set the parameters, and I say he was a born-again Christian.”

“He couldn’t have been. No born-again Christian would commit such sins.”

For a moment I didn’t know what to reply. Then it occurred to me:

"What you are saying is perilously close to the Catholic position, though you don’t realize it. You are saying that we can’t tell whether someone really is born again until he’s safely dead.

We might think, for years, that someone is born again, but his actions late in life might disprove our assumption.

"This is true even in the case of someone, like the minister, who himself thought he was a born-again Christian. Your argument must be that he was mistaken, as shown by his later sins.

The conclusion is that between the ages of 15 and 75 he could not have had a true absolute assurance of salvation, because such an assurance is not available until one’s final moments.

"This is very like the Catholic teaching, which holds that we can have a moral assurance of salvation but not an absolute assurance.

We can have confidence that we will go to heaven if we now are in the state of sanctifying grace and realize that God gives us enough helping graces to remain in sanctifying grace, but we can’t have an absolute assurance of salvation because, knowing our weaknesses, we know that we might sin grievously in the future, forfeiting everything."

From: KARL KEATING’S E-LETTER March 18, 2003

You also said:

I have been praying and reading my Bible even more than usual!

That is commendable VesselofMercy. Please pray for me too (and I will pray for you as well).

 

[Christian50]

As far as I understood, an analogy to illustrate the difference between Catholicism and some other forms of Christianity could be this:

Per Catholicism, God builds the bridge between the individual and Himself, but the individual needs to walk over the bridge himself.

Per some other forms of Christianity, God builds the bridge between the individual and Himself, and then carries the individual over the bridge too.

Hello Lucy,

Eph.2:5-6;
“Even when we were dead in trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ and RAISED US UP TOGETHER, and made us sit together in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus.”

Col.1:13-14; (Jerusalem Bible)
“Because that is what He has done: He has TAKEN US OUT of the power of darkness and created a place for us IN THE KINGDOM of the Son that He loves, and IN Him, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins.”

1 Cor.1:30;
“But God has MADE YOU members of Christ Jesus and by God’s doing He has become our wisdom, and our virtue, and our holiness, and our freedom.”
Emphasize added.

Rom.8:1-2 (Jerusalem Bible)
“The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.”

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.

4.3/25 We confess together that sinners are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of FAITH is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4.3/27.The Catholic understanding also sees FAITH as FUNDAMENTAL in justification. FOR WITHOUT FAITH, NO JUSTIFICATION CAN TAKE PLACE. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION. End quote. Emphasize added.

God bless.

Christian

 

[Lucy107]

Eph.2:5-6;
“Even when we were dead in trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ and RAISED US UP TOGETHER, and made us sit together in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus.”

Col.1:13-14; (Jerusalem Bible)
“Because that is what He has done: He has TAKEN US OUT of the power of darkness and created a place for us IN THE KINGDOM of the Son that He loves, and IN Him, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins.”

1 Cor.1:30;
“But God has MADE YOU members of Christ Jesus and by God’s doing He has become our wisdom, and our virtue, and our holiness, and our freedom.”
Emphasize added.

Rom.8:1-2 (Jerusalem Bible)
“The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.”

Those passages are from epistles to people who have already converted. Not to just anyone. Not to someone on some lone Pacific island who has never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and not to someone who is currently a self-professed atheist.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.

4.3/25 We confess together that sinners are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of FAITH is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4.3/27.The Catholic understanding also sees FAITH as FUNDAMENTAL in justification. FOR WITHOUT FAITH, NO JUSTIFICATION CAN TAKE PLACE. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION. End quote. Emphasize added.

It seems to me you are simply trying to downplay the role of free will.

 

[Christian50]

Those passages are from epistles to people who have already converted. Not to just anyone. Not to someone on some lone Pacific island who has never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and not to someone who is currently a self-professed atheist.

It seems to me you are simply trying to downplay the role of free will.

Hello Lucy,

I didn’t want to contradict your post #64, only add to it.
In fact, in my opinion; your illustration is very good.

I agree, the epistles addressed to the Church.

I know our free will is important.

In fact according to CCC 600:
Quote: “When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of predestination, he includes in it each person’s **free response **to his grace.” End quote. Emphasize added.

According to our **free response **to his grace our name have been blotted out from the “Book of Life” or stands written in the “Book of Life” and God predestined us to Heaven and our salvation is ETERNALLY SECURE.

There is another question:

Do we know we are among the reprobates or we are among the predestined to heaven.

There is NO other alternative.

In fact, for our protection in 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND to test: We are among the reprobates or we are among the predestined to Heaven.

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Jerusalem Bible)
“Examine yourselves to **MAKE SURE **you are in the faith; TEST YOURSELVES.
Do you acknowledge that Jesus Christ is really in you?
If not, you have failed the test, but we, as I hope you will come to see, have not failed it.”

I believe, when God gives us a command, we can and we should obey it.
In particular when our eternity depends on the outcome of the test.

God bless.

Christian

 

[VesselofMercy]

Cathoholic…is THIS the love and kindness for all creation you’re referring to?

Isaiah 26:21

For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

Revelation 19:11-21

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. …

Ezekiel 25:17

I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”

Nahum 1:2-6

The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers; Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.

Psalm 75:8

For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs.

1 Samuel 2:10

The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; against them he will thunder in heaven. The Lord will judge the ends of the earth; he will give strength to his king and exalt the power of his anointed.”

Revelation 6:16

Calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Romans 9:13

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Zephaniah 3:6-10

6 “I have cut off nations;
their battlements are in ruins;
I have laid waste their streets
so that no one walks in them;
their cities have been made desolate,
without a man, without an inhabitant.
7 I said, ‘Surely you will fear me;
you will accept correction.
Then your[a] dwelling would not be cut off
according to all that I have appointed against you.’**
But all the more they were eager
to make all their deeds corrupt.
8 “Therefore wait for me,” declares the Lord,
“for the day when I rise up to seize the prey.
For my decision is to gather nations,
to assemble kingdoms,
to pour out upon them my indignation,
all my burning anger;
for in the fire of my jealousy
all the earth shall be consumed.

Zephaniah 2:12-15

12 You also, O Cushites,
shall be slain by my sword.
13 And he will stretch out his hand against the north
and destroy Assyria,
and he will make Nineveh a desolation,
a dry waste like the desert.
14 Herds shall lie down in her midst,
all kinds of beasts;
even the owl and the hedgehog
shall lodge in her capitals;
a voice shall hoot in the window;
devastation will be on the threshold;
for her cedar work will be laid bare.
15 This is the exultant city
that lived securely,
that said in her heart,
“I am, and there is no one else.”
What a desolation she has become,
a lair for wild beasts!
Everyone who passes by her
hisses and shakes his fist.

Zephaniah 1:2-6
“I will utterly sweep away everything
from the face of the earth,” declares the Lord.
3 “I will sweep away man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds of the heavens
and the fish of the sea,
and the rubble[a] with the wicked.
I will cut off mankind
from the face of the earth,” declares the Lord.
4 “I will stretch out my hand against Judah
and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
and I will cut off from this place the remnant of Baal
and the name of the idolatrous priests along with the priests,
5 those who bow down on the roofs
to the host of the heavens,
those who bow down and swear to the Lord
and yet swear by Milcom,
6 those who have turned back from following the Lord,
who do not seek the Lord or inquire of him.”**

 

[Lucy107]

Cathoholic…is THIS the love and kindness for all creation you’re referring to?

[glorious displays of God’s power]

What seems to be the problem?

 

[Cathoholic]

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut VesselofMercy.

I watched all of the approximately 20 minutes of your video VesselofMercy.

Now I would like to invite you to watch approximately 20 minutes of video suggested from me as well.

Catholicism: Why Being Born again is Being Baptized - and - Infant Baptism (Here)

Steve Ray on Born Again (Here)

If any other readers of this thread are interested in more, these videos are also very good.

The Lambs Supper (Here)

Tim Staples on Baptism (Here)

Scott Hahn: The Hour Is Coming (Here)

Hahn Sacrifice of the Mass (Here)

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I had several major issues with the video you suggested in post 59 VesselofMercy.

• The video lays out a grotesque over-emphasis on God’s wrath and vengeance with not much or no emphasis on His love for all of humanity and even all of creation.
• The video asserts the “supremacy” of Jesus, yet gives an implicit DENIAL that Jesus is “supreme” enough to abide in us and make a saving difference in us along with His work on Calvary.
• In the video, there is talk of our imputed righteousness, which is fine, but it seems like a denial of our infused righteousness in the video, which is not fine (that would also be pretty consistent with much of the standard Protestant theologies).

---

One of the issues I had with the video is it talks about the “Supremacy” of Jesus but the author then subtly seems to DENY that Jesus can abide in us and MUST abide in us (or if they admit this, did not make it clear).

It is this whittled-down-Jesus that the author was talking about that I take issue with.

We are REALLY “made-clean” by Jesus. Jesus is more powerful than sin—infinitely so.

It is an implicit denial of the “supremacy” of Christ over sin that I thought was a “mini-Jesus” paradigm for the video.

This denial is implicit in the point of him eventually emphasizing our “imputed righteousness” that the author correctly affirms, but incorrectly to the exclusion of “infused righteousness”. The denial is subtle. The denial is sneaky (I am sure the author likely can’t see his “mini-Jesus” motif). But a denial it is.

Some here on this thread may or may not realize it, but in much of Protestant theology, the affirmation of “imputed righteousness” goes hand in hand with the DENIAL of people actually being MADE righteous (infused righteousness) for those who go to Heaven. (a rejection of it, for those who do not)

Catholics on the other hand, do not deny the verses that discuss our being covered with the righteousness of Christ, but then Catholics ALSO AFFIRM how Jesus works in us, through us, and substantially changes us.

Catholics affirm Christ is infinite and does save us as we cannot save ourselves.

But once we are saved, Catholics ALSO affirm St. Paul’s teachings of our participation IN-Christ and the salvific ongoing aspect of this too.

The people doing this video apparently do NOT believe that.

They will say Christ did it so we don’t have to. This is a partial truth.

---

• We cannot save ourselves. Catholic Christians and Protestants both affirm this.
• Christ saves by His own work that we cannot and could never do. Catholic Christians and Protestants both affirm this.
• Christ ALSO continues to save us in and through us with our cooperation. Catholic Christians affirm this, many Protestants deny this.

---

The video shows a theological distortion of God, who only has “mini-power” who cannot cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness, but rather COVER our sins ALONE.

The video for all practical purposes depicts God as a mere courtroom judge. And that is basic Protestant theology. Catholics also affirm God as a judge, but not merely a judge. We see Him primarily as our FATHER who art in Heaven.

Steve Wood, a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism once said (I am paraphrasing):

“See how big of a deal somebody makes out of being actual sons and daughters of God and I will show you someone who loves God.”

NOT 1st JOHN 3 (Phantom Verse) 1 See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and we are merely “called” this, but are NOT really sons and daughters of God.

1st JOHN 3:1a 1 See what love the Father has given us, that we should
be called children of God; and so we ARE.

Continued . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

Continued . . .

1st JOHN 3:1a 1 See what love the Father has given us,
that we should be called children of God; and so we ARE.

Another issue I had with the video, was after talking about the “supremacy” of Jesus (only to implicitly deny this “supremacy” later in the video), was at about 5:30 into the video it goes on and on about the wrath-filled aspect of God.

You yourself cited some of these verses in post 69 . . . . .

• to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity
• From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations
• I will execute great vengeance on them
• The Lord is a jealous and avenging God
• all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs

etc. etc.

I as a Catholic affirm all of these (and all) verses.

But this side of God was grotesquely over emphasized in the video, to the exclusion of His mercy, kindness, and love for ALL His creation, especially mankind. This amounts to a distortion of God in the video.

---

There is MORE to assert about God.

God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

This could not be an all-vengeance and no-mercy motif otherwise God would not send His only begotten Son to save the WORLD while we were at enmity with Him.

St. Paul does NOT put it this way . . . .

NOT ROMANS 5 (Phantom Verse) 10 For if while we were enemies we were only disgusting to God, a God who could ONLY look at us with wrath and vengeance but some how, He decided to save us anyway.

St. Paul DOES put it this way . . . .

ROMANS 5:10 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

St. John affirms this love of God too, and tells us His love is for the WHOLE WORLD!

JOHN 3:16-17 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

You yourself VesselofMercy cited 1st John. Yet John in 1st John 4:8, does NOT say “God is wrath” but rather “God is love”.

1st JOHN 4:8 8 He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.

Another verse you cited Titus 3:5 tells us WHY the Father sent His only begotten Son. Why?

Fortunately St. Paul tells us: “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his MERCY.”

I affirm all the verses you cited about wrath, jealousy, etc. VesselofMercy.

But I do affirm MORE verses than the picture that was proverbially drawn on this video (I am not saying this of YOU VesselofMercy, but rather of the picture drawn of God in the video).

Hate is the absence of love.

But “hate” is also a Hebrew idiomatic expression which means lesser love. Jesus Himself uses that idiom when He tells us to “hate” not only our parents but ourselves (See Luke 14:26, then look at Matthew 10:37).

God cannot have “hate” in the sense of the absence of Love, because as St. John says: God IS love.

God IS love. Not in a New Age sense. Not in a “Hollywood sense”. But in a self-giving Trinitarian sense that He mercifully tries to share with us, without taking away our free will.

Intellect, memory, and will are the attributes that help us see we were made in the image and likeness of God. An image of God that sin can injure; but sin is not strong enough to completely destroy God’s image and likeness in humanity who was made “very good”.

 

[Lucy107]

The video for all practical purposes depicts God as a mere courtroom judge. And that is basic Protestant theology. Catholics also affirm God as a judge, but not merely a judge. We see Him primarily as our FATHER who art in Heaven.

The Protestants seem to believe that God sacrificed His Only Son in order to spare humans from His own wrath. That God took steps to save people from His own and otherwise inevitable wrath.

I’ve only ever seen critics of Protestantism formulate it that way, but it seems that this is just what it comes down to.

Something like an angry person cutting off his right arm so as to not hit someone with it … the anger and the desire to hit being inevitable …

“See how big of a deal somebody makes out of being actual sons and daughters of God and I will show you someone who loves God.”

E.g. Heb. 12 (ESV):

*“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.*

 

[Christian50]

I want to quote Karl Keating, who discusses the “assurance” aspect of Scripture with another person and his analysis thereof, as I haven’t seen a better summation.

Hello Cathoholic,

I don’t mean to join into your debate with WesselofMercy.

In obedience to God’s Command given to us for our protection in 1 Thess.5:21 (Test all things, …), I only intend to test Karl Keating’s e-letter (“Perilously close to the Catholic position”) with RCC teachings. The e-letter is on post No. # 65.

From: KARL KEATING’S E-LETTER March 18, 2003
"Perilously close to the Catholic position"

Summation of Karl Keating’s e-letter:

Quote: *We can have confidence that we will go to heaven if we now are in the state of sanctifying grace *and realize that God gives us enough helping graces to remain in sanctifying grace, but we can’t have an absolute assurance of salvation because, knowing our weaknesses, we know that we might sin grievously in the future, forfeiting everything." End quote. Emphasize added.

We can do the test only if we have the appropriate knowledge about the THEOLOGICAL FACTS concerning the “Book of Life,” God’s predestination to Heaven and Baptism.

THE “BOOK OF LIFE.”

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA. The predestination of the elect.

Quote: God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes).

This book of life is a LIST which CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT and admits NEITHER additions NOR erasures.
End quote. Emphasize added.

[CCC 600] “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his ETERNAL PLAN OF PREDESTINATION, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.” End quote.

Rev.13:8 and Rev 17:8; Eph.1:4; 2 Tim.1:9; and [CCC 600] helps us to understand the “Book of Life.”

God has completed the “Book of Life” before founding of the world, before times eternal; by blotting out the names of the reprobates from the “Book of life” as it is described in [CCC 600]: It is done according to each person’s free response to His grace.

In effect, the reprobates by their rejection of the grace of God, they removed themselves from the “Book of Life.”

From the completion of the “Book of Life,” the “Book of Life” admits NEITHER additions NOR erasures.

Of course for our understanding, when God tells us something connected with the “Book of Life” He speaks to us in our human chronological order. For example: Ex.32:32-33; Rev.3:5; etc…

Continued

 

[Christian50]

Continuation

GOD’S PREDESTINATION.

God has completed the “Book of Life” before founding of the world, before times eternal; by blotting out the names of the reprobates from the “Book of Life” as it is described in [CCC 600].

God has predestined the rest of the people, those whose name left in the “Book of Life” to heaven (called ELECT).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA. The predestination of the elect.

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has been IRREVOCABLY FIXED from all eternity.
Nor could it be otherwise.

For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.”

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a LIST which CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT and admits neither additions nor erasures.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the definiteness of the number of the elect, follows naturally from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding THE PREDESTINED IS UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be unchangeable and definite, subject neither to additions nor to cancellations.

Anything INDEFINITE in the number would EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.

Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number of the elect, but also the individuals with their names and their entire career on earth, should be present before the Divine mind from all eternity. End quote. Emphasize added.

KEY POINTS:

a. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.

b. Anything INDEFINITE in the number would EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.

Continued

 

[Christian50]

Continuation

**BAPTISM. **

From the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of the “Book of life” and from the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of God’s predestination, NATURALLY follows:

The THEOLOGICAL FACTS of Baptism have been built on the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of the “Book of life” and the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of God’s predestination.

From the facts of the “Book of Life” and from the facts of God’s predestination to Heaven, NATURALLY follows; here are two kinds of Baptism; VALID Baptism and INVALID Baptism.

In order to understand Baptism; it is INDISPENSABLE to know:

a. What is a valid Baptism and who are those who are having valid Baptism.

b. What is an invalid Baptism and who are those who are having invalid Baptism.

Valid Baptism is Baptism into the Body of Christ.
Baptism also is a translation from the state of mortal sin to the state of grace.
“Ordinarily we enter the state of grace through Baptism.”

From the “Book of Life” and from God’s predestination to Heaven NATURALLY FOLLOWS, only those whose name is in the “Book of Life,” and predestined to Heaven has VALID Baptism.

Name being in the “Book of Life” and being predestined to Heaven PRECEDES valid Baptism. – For this important theological fact we should always remember to understand valid Baptism.

This means also; the reprobates by their rejection of the grace of God, FORFEIT themselves, with result:

a. Their names are not written in the “Book of Life.”

b. They are not among the predestined to Heaven.

c. They are not baptized into the Body of Christ.

Even if some of the reprobates come into a Christian Church and have water baptism, for their rejection of the grace of God, their baptisms are invalid.

God does not baptize anyone into the Body of Christ whose name is not written in the “Book of Life” and not among the predestined to Heaven.

From the above facts, naturally follows:
There are two kinds of people that make up the earthly Church.

a. Those people whose name is in the “Book of Life,” predestined to Heaven and have valid Baptism.

b. And those people whose names are not in the “Book of Life,” not among the predestined to Heaven and have invalid Baptism.

KEY POINTS to understand Baptism:

Valid baptism is; Baptism into the Body of Christ which is the state of grace.

All those people whose names stand written in the “Book of Life” and predestined to Heaven are having valid Baptism.

Baptism is invalid if God does not complete the Baptism by baptizing the candidate into the Body of Christ.
The reprobates are having invalid Baptism and as the result; they stay in the state of mortal sin.

The activities of the reprobates described in the Bible (for example): Matt.7:15; Matt.13;24-30, 36-43; Matt.24:11, 24; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Thess.2:8-12; 2 Pet.2:13; Rev.13:8; Rev.17:8; etc.
And of course many other people are reprobates because various reason they are rejecting the grace of God.

From the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and from the theological facts of God’s predestination to Heaven, naturally follows:

The PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA have been built on the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and the theological facts of God’s predestination to Heaven.

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS
ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA
Vatican City, 13 March 2006 Prot. N. 10279/2006

Your Excellency:
For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. …

1. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection. End quote.

This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences. End quote.

Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts is part of the Roman Curia. The Roman Curia is charged with helping the Pope in his governance and oversight of the Roman Catholic Church.

In my opinion:
Even if the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI would not approve the actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica that would not make any difference, because the actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica is simply the sum up of the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and the theological facts of God’s predestination to Heaven and this theological facts are in operation since about 2,000 years and will be operational until Christ return.

So the actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica didn’t change any Catholic teaching only summed up and made it plain to understand the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and the theological facts of God’s predestination and also made it clear; a valid Baptism is irrevocable.

A valid Baptism is IRREVOCABLE because:
Name being in the “Book of Life” and being predestined to Heaven PRECEDES valid Baptism.

“Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has been IRREVOCABLY FIXED from all eternity.”

NO ONE can have a valid Baptism whose name is not stand written in the “Book of Life” and not predestined to Heaven from all eternity.

Continued

 

[Christian50]

Continuation

SUMMARY

a. God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes).
This book of life is a LIST which CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT and admits NEITHER additions NOR erasures.

b. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.

c. Anything INDEFINITE in the number would EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.

NOW WE ARE READY TO DO THE TEST OF KARL KEATING’S E-LETTER March 18, 2003

Quote from the e-letter:

“*We can have confidence that we will go to heaven if we now are in the state of sanctifying grace *and realize that God gives us enough helping graces to remain in sanctifying grace, but we can’t have an absolute assurance of salvation because, knowing our weaknesses, we know that we might sin grievously in the future, forfeiting everything.” End quote. Emphasize added.

Keating’s assumption based on as follows:

a. Our names can be blotted out from the “Book of Life” after it was completed. – Yet the “Book of Life” is a LIST which CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT and admits NEITHER additions NOR erasures.

b. God’s predestined to Heaven can lose their salvation and end up in hell. – Yet this would result in EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.

c. Our Baptism into the Body of Christ can be revoked. – Yet it remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.

We could go further with the test but it is needless.

Cathoholic you said (# 65):
Quote: I want to quote Karl Keating, who discusses the “assurance” aspect of Scripture with another person and his analysis thereof, as I haven’t seen a better summation. End quote.

Summation of KARL KEATING’S E-LETTER:

Quote: We can have confidence that we will go to heaven if we now are in the state of sanctifying grace and realize that God gives us enough helping graces to remain in sanctifying grace, but we can’t have an absolute assurance of salvation because, knowing our weaknesses, we know that we might sin grievously in the future, forfeiting everything." End quote.

Cathoholic, I believe, to learn the fullness of the truth - it is better late then never.

As follows, I show you Cathoholic a better summation (same subject) from a far higher authority:

The summation of the PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA:

1. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.

*Approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences. *

Re: On Salvation by Faith and Works

Basic Catholic Beliefs and Practices.

Quote: “Thus Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone, solely on account of the work of Christ.” End quote.

God bless.

Christian

 

[Cathoholic]

Christian50

You complained as if someone was denying:

“God’s unerring foreknowledge”

(explicitly even, in posts 74, 75, and 77)

But nobody here—Catholic or Protestant—is questioning “God’s unerring foreknowledge”, and Karl Keating never questioned “God’s unerring foreknowledge” either.

Your posts are kind of shadow boxing aren’t they? You drew way too many conclusions that just were not stated by anyone here.

Some other items you have just not gotten correct.

Since Karl Keating isn’t here to defend himself, and he did found this forum that we are on, I just want to correct the record here.

Mr. Keating doesn’t say or imply many of the things you are trying to assert. Nor is anyone else.

You discussed a lot about “the Book of Life”.

I wasn’t sure what you were criticizing.

As a matter-of-fact, I went back and did a thread search and the ONLY one who explicitly mentions the “Book of Life” on this thread is YOU Christian50.

I don’t know why you are bringing it up on a thread titled “On Salvation by Faith and Works” (especially a four page post–posts 74, 75, 76, and 77).