On scientism

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Science is done using mathematics.
No. *Some *science is done with mathematics. Some sciences test hypotheses using inferential statistics and some science does not use it at all.
Modern neuroscience shows that every activity of the “mind” has a physical correlate which refutes specific theories of the soul (not to be confused with the soul’s existence itself) which posit “immaterial” activities independent of matter.
No again. What some neuroscientific findings demonstrates are correlations between activity in particular locations of the brain and particular functions. It does not tell us that mind and/or soul is a function of brain, merely that some functions of the mind appear to be associated with increased neurological activity. I understand that this is a subtle point and is often missed or misunderstood by those without a a broad and deep knowledge of neuroscientific methods and findings.

In addition, there are many functions that have not been so demonstrated to be linked to specific areas. Consciousness for example. And that is a pretty big function!
BTW I don’t mean areas associated with changes in the level of consciousness, I mean the *experience *of consciousness.
 
You obviously find my whole arguement very threatening,
It was easily debunked for the piece of intellectual dishonesty that it is. Saying “empirical science only deals with appearances” is intellectually dishonest and was exposed as such.

Now in some of what you have written below I will certainly concede you have an argument - only it is not an argument against what I actually hold to, so I’m hardly going to find it “threatening”. I’ve not said anything comes into existence “from absolutely nothing”.

You also make more than a few unsupported assertions.
so much so that you had to admit the truth of what i said about the limits of science (because its quite simply unbeatable),
The fact that science is limited to empirically verifiable or disprovable hypotheses was never contested. The fact that science requires certain metaphysical assumptions to get off the ground was never contested. These are the ONLY limits of science though. If you want to show more, you’ve got to show it.
but then you create this fantasy about me creating false dichotomies
…which you certainly did. The fact that science needs some metaphysical assumptions to get off the ground does NOT mean science need bow to what metaphysicians say on everything if the predictions of metaphysicians are disconfirmed.
when you realized that my successful rebuttal
It wasn’t successful. It was intellectually dishonest.
left a giant gaping epistemological whole where scientism use to sit; an abyss in fact, where the legitimacy and primacy of metaphysics and logic fits in quite snuggly…
You still seem to be saying that since science can’t give the answer to everything, and since science needs **certain **metaphysical assumptions to “work”, that science must bow to the “primacy” of metaphysicians on **everything **whenever a conflict arises - that science should either throw its findings in the trash can or pile on ad hoc assertion after ad hoc assertion to satisfy the metaphysicians. Sorry, I can tell you, ain’t gonna happen no matter how much you beat the drums against “scientism”.
maybe you should humbly accept that my arguement made some very strong points that you are now having great difficulty to counteract.
Let’s hear those points then.
I am talking about “epistemological principles”. These are principles that you cannot ignore, regardless of whether or not you believe that the universe is real. You your self said that science relies upon metaphysics and beliefs, to get of the ground, so why would you think that science has the epistemological authority to redefine logic as it sees fit,
Why don’t you show precisely which “epistemological principles” I am disregarding, and why they are necessary for science, and how I am redefining logic. **If **you could do that, **then **I would concede you would have an argument.
making false interpretations involving contradictions about a reality that transcends its empirical grasp in regards to the ontological truth of things?
Again let’s show how I am making a false interpretation involving a contradiction.
Your assertion that science can now define the rules as it sees fit has no basis in reason or empiricism, and this fact exposes the degrees of denial that is engulfing the scientific enterprise as we know it.
And what rules are you referring to?

It would help if you could actually get specific.
No scientific theory has ever truly proven that something can come out of nothing by itself.
Not only that, no scientist I know of has ever made that claim. What some scientists **are **claiming is that things come to exist uncaused but not “out of nothing” - the quantum vacuum is not “nothing”.
Its a logical contradiction, a metaphysical contradiction,
Show the contradiction.
…and its a contradiction that has no epistemological authority regarding the truth about reality.
Tell me, who or what has epistemological “authority” and where does it come from?
You cannot measure “nothing”; thus it cannot be a true object of empirical observation, which means that they cannot include it as a legitimate explanation in so far as empiricism is concerned;
I don’t say that and neither does any other scientist I know of. You cannot design an experiment in which there is truly “nothing”. Do you really think scientists are this stupid?
and if it is observed that an object suddenly appears, scientists can only assume, as “scientists” (rather then as celebrity atheists), that it came from another being, because thats their epistemological limit in regards to the authority of the natural sciences. If they cannot find such a being, then they must admit that science has reached its authoritative limits. They can only say that physics cannot possibly explain the phenomenon.
Which is to say, physics can say there is **no physical cause or explanation **for the object’s appearance.
To say that something came from nothing is purely a philosophical interpretation of empirical data, and gives us no empirical evidence of its truth whatsoever.
Not so for an object arising without a physical efficient cause however.
Its just an assertion made by a desperate naturalist peddling mere appearances in order to undermine the foundations of logic; because they know that as soon as they admit the limitations of science and the primacy of metaphysics, its game-over for naturalism.
Please define “naturalism”, what are the supposed limitations of science, what the “primacy” of metaphysics means, and why it means the demise of naturalism.
While scientists can certainly make the claim that objects may move according to some unknown principle that doesn’t follow the classical understanding of physics such as mere cause and effect – since there is no inherent logical contradiction in the idea that some being has its own principle of motion in respect of its existential environment and given nature – it cannot escape the necessity of an “existential cause”; for out of nothing comes nothing.
How does the motion of objects relate to “out of nothing comes nothing”?
And only somebody trying to hijack science in defense of naturalism would abuse “Quantum Physics” in the attempt to push such illogical rubbish. The level of deception perpetrated by the followers of scientism, is absolutely disgusting and threatens to undermine true empiricism.
Since you’ve made the charge of “deception”, I will demand you substantiate it.
 
No. *Some *science is done with mathematics. Some sciences test hypotheses using inferential statistics and some science does not use it at all.
Only because the error bars are so small that no one bothers because the p values would be just astronomically low, and it’s not important to know exactly how low.
No again. What some neuroscientific findings demonstrates are correlations between activity in particular locations of the brain and particular functions.
That’s what I just said.
It does not tell us that mind and/or soul is a function of brain,
And that’s what I just didn’t say. I did say that it refutes the idea of the mind and/our soul acting independently of the brain.
In addition, there are many functions that have not been so demonstrated to be linked to specific areas.
No, there aren’t.
Consciousness for example. And that is a pretty big function!
BTW I don’t mean areas associated with changes in the level of consciousness, I mean the *experience *of consciousness.
Yes but consciousness is certainly linked to brain function in general, even if the precise minimal neuronal mechanisms necessary are not yet known.
 
Explain please
Ever since Aristotle metaphysicians have been making “predictions”. All motion in the heavens was supposed to have been uniformly circular, and all objects made from perfect material, and the earth at center. There were four main elements: earth, air, fire, and water. Mental illness was supposed to be the result of demonic possession. Animal species are immutable essences. Etc., etc. They’ve bitterly fought empirical science and lost at virtually every turn. In fact it’s amazing how few of their predictions have actually been verified. Their latest tactic is to appeal to the “authority” of metaphysics over and against so-called “scientism” - if empirical science refutes their a priori prediction, science is wrong, because science is only about “appearances” whereas metaphysics is about “reality”. And I’m tired of all this intellectual dishonesty.

If they want to keep it in the ivory tower and argue about quiddities and essences and substances, how reality conforms with knowledge and how that is conflated with semantics and language, whether a virus should be considered “life” or not, and so on, things which don’t actually make “real-world” predictions then they’re welcome to it.
I will form an argument a bit later on this, as I am in class right now.
OK.
Agreed as long as it doesn’t result in a logically absurd conclusion. Also there are always non-materialistic explanations that could be possible.
In science you start with the hypothesis you want to test, which can’t be a necessary truth (only denial of a logically necessary truth would be logically absurd). If you don’t start with a necessary truth, its denial won’t be logically absurd.

Non-materialistic explanations **are **possible, but they can be tested and verified or rejected as well. We could assume angels are pushing the planets and stars around, instead of the traditional physical explanation for their motion. But that is rejected because there is much less evidence for that model; angels could presumably move the planets and stars any which way, while gravity/GR makes a **specific **prediction. Hence its explanatory power is much greater and that is why it is preferred.
It is background energy that is left over from the Big Bang.
Are you perhaps confusing the quantum vacuum with the cosmic microwave background radiation? The quantum vacuum is by definition the absolute lowest possible energy state.
What about geology? Do we observe rock structures with mathematics.
No, we don’t observe with mathematics, but we need it for any question we want to ask regarding any hypothesis. How do we date them? How do we determine the type of rock? Even when the math isn’t done, inferential statistics are always performed implicitly, it’s just that sometimes the probability of the alternative hypothesis is so astronomically low as to make it a waste of time to quantitatively compute.
I understand and agree.
Well we’re agreeing a lot lately. 🙂
 
Ever since Aristotle metaphysicians have been making “predictions”. All motion in the heavens was supposed to have been uniformly circular, and all objects made from perfect material, and the earth at center. There were four main elements: earth, air, fire, and water. Mental illness was supposed to be the result of demonic possession.
I agree that these have been refuted, although perhaps I am in error at making a major distinction between empiricism in metaphysics. I assert that empiricism is a metaphysic that involves predictions, and that in the realm of predictions empiricism has authority.
Animal species are immutable essences.
Explain; are you referring to the substantial form, and the problem of mixtonss and monsters? I do not believe that science has refuted it, but I do believe that it has toppled its primacy.
Etc., etc. They’ve bitterly fought empirical science and lost at virtually every turn. In fact it’s amazing how few of their predictions have actually been verified.
See above
Their latest tactic is to appeal to the “authority” of metaphysics over and against so-called “scientism” - if empirical science refutes their a priori prediction, science is wrong, because science is only about “appearances” whereas metaphysics is about “reality”.
That is not how I define scientism as I said before. You are thinking of Mind over Matter. Also see above.
And I’m tired of all this intellectual dishonesty.
People are not being dishonest, they are just wrong.
If they want to keep it in the ivory tower and argue about quiddities and essences and substances, how reality conforms with knowledge and how that is conflated with semantics and language, whether a virus should be considered “life” or not, and so on, things which don’t actually make “real-world” predictions then they’re welcome to it.
see above
Non-materialistic explanations **are **possible, but they can be tested and verified or rejected as well. We could assume angels are pushing the planets and stars around, instead of the traditional physical explanation for their motion. But that is rejected because there is much less evidence for that model; angels could presumably move the planets and stars any which way, while gravity/GR makes a **specific **prediction. Hence its explanatory power is much greater and that is why it is preferred.
I agree
Are you perhaps confusing the quantum vacuum with the cosmic microwave background radiation?
I believe the vaccum energy and the cosmic microwave background radiation are the same thing.
The quantum vacuum is by definition the absolute lowest possible energy state.
Yes but there is still energy in there.
No, we don’t observe with mathematics, but we need it for any question we want to ask regarding any hypothesis. How do we date them? How do we determine the type of rock? Even when the math isn’t done, inferential statistics are always performed implicitly, it’s just that sometimes the probability of the alternative hypothesis is so astronomically low as to make it a waste of time to quantitatively compute.
I agree

Well we’re agreeing a lot lately. 🙂

I agree 😃
 
The doctrine of scientism teaches that science has dominion over all other methods of human intellectual inquiry – whether they are the metaphysics, philosophy, or religion. In addition it requires everyone to be subject to its methodological restrictions.
…if one makes a statement that apply to someone else.
If someone claims to know something that should apply to everyone, and that everyone is supposed to believe those claims, I want a method to prove that those claims are valid. There is yet no other functioning method than the scientific one to do that. Period.

Revelations I did not receive are irrelevant.
Opinions I do not share are irrelevant.

An emprical fact has normative power. It is relevant.
 
NowAgnostic.

You are wrong.

I’ll point out again why: all functions have been not localised. Some functions have. Not all. Overstating your case weakens it.

Demstrating a link between an activity and increased function in a particular region **does not refute **an immaterial mind or soul. This is actually irrefutable -cannot be proved wrong . Just in case you think I’m saying that there is evidence to the contrary, which I am not, check up the meaning of the term irrefuteable and the term unfalsifiable.

Asd for talking about low p values - this does not strengthen your argument either. Probability theory does not have anything to do with scientific observation.Did you not read what I wrote?? Some sciences do not use inferential statistics or any other statistics for that matter. For example - the structure and function of the heart has been demonstrated empirically through observation and experimentation (what happens if…). This is scientific evidence and it is empirical - it is not mathematical. **Experiments do not always use inferential statistics to test the hypotheses. **That damaging the left ventricle wall results in heart failure was first demonstrated by observation.
 
Saying “empirical science only deals with appearances” is intellectually dishonest and was exposed as such.
Am i to believe then that you didn’t concede to this point in a previous post? It will be pretty embarrassing for you if i start digging up the past and i find this not to be the case.

As for the question of metaphysics, are you now saying that science can determine and predict the reality of “objective” ontological truth through empiricism without metaphysics?
Now in some of what you have written below I will certainly concede you have an argument.
You have to concede all of it if you are Intellectually honest.
I’ve not said anything comes into existence “from absolutely nothing”.
The problem is, whether you consciously do so or not, limiting reality to the interactions of finite beings, absolutely infers this position. But i am not going to explain why, as this point has been proven by me and others on many threads. I think if you really want the truth, you will dig for it. Perhaps somebody else will show you, or maybe you should start a new thread on this particular matter.
The fact that science is limited to empirically verifiable or disprovable hypotheses was never contested. The fact that science requires certain metaphysical assumptions to get off the ground was never contested. These are the ONLY limits of science though. If you want to show more, you’ve got to show it.

The fact that science needs some metaphysical assumptions to get off the ground does NOT mean science need bow to what metaphysicians say on everything if the predictions of metaphysicians are disconfirmed.
In terms of ontological truth it must. As soon as it contradicts logic; it breaks itself off from its metaphysical foundations and its epistemological justifications.
It wasn’t successful. It was intellectually dishonest.
You haven’t shown that to be the case. You are just dodging the issue and refusing to accept the authority of metaphysics.
You still seem to be saying that since science can’t give the answer to everything, and since science needs **certain **metaphysical assumptions to “work”, that science must bow to the “primacy” of metaphysicians on **everything **whenever a conflict arises - that science should either throw its findings in the trash can or pile on ad hoc assertion after ad hoc assertion to satisfy the metaphysicians. Sorry, I can tell you, ain’t gonna happen no matter how much you beat the drums against “scientism”.
Its not surprising!😃 Scientism is not a logic based system. Its posing as science; but its a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and you are so attached to the idea that science has some how overridden any need to take the supernatural seriously, that you refuse to see this fact. Its a run away train into irrationality, for the mere sake of avoiding the necessary truths of metaphysics.
Let’s hear those points then.
I believe that i have already given all the sufficient points that you need.
Why don’t you show precisely which “epistemological principles” I am disregarding, and why they are necessary for science, and how I am redefining logic. **If **you could do that, **then **I would concede you would have an argument.
I have already done that, but you cannot comprehend them; which is a shame.
Again let’s show how I am making a false interpretation involving a contradiction.
Done.
It would help if you could actually get specific.
It doesn’t matter how specific i get, you will not accept it as you have already demonstrated.
What some scientists **are **claiming is that things come to exist uncaused but not “out of nothing” - the quantum vacuum is not “nothing”.
Your wording is very vague here. First of all, to say that a thing comes to “exist” un-cuased, is to include metaphysical factors. I agree that the “quantum vacuum” is something, but something cannot be “existentially indeterminate” in regards to the possibility of its existence, and thus you must admit that any quantum event that happens to occur as a result has a “cause”; which is the quantum vacuum. But such events comes to exist according to the form or principled nature of the vacuum and the potentiality that lay therein. It certainly isn’t the kind of cause that we would understand in the physical sense, but its understandable metaphysically speaking. It doesn’t potentially come into existence “uncaused”, for that would be the same as saying that it got its principled nature from absolutely nothing; a state of non reality; which is absurd since nothing is not a state of being, and thus cannot be meaningful applied to real beings in terms of an explanation. It functions according to a principle intrinsic to its given nature; and thats not any kind of a good reason to think that it came out nothing. Neither is their any reason to think that the quantum vacuum came out of nothing. In respect of potentiality, it to functions according to its given nature; since out of nothing comes nothing. Sooner or later you are going to reach a point, where physical explanations do not explain why things exist. Science cannot explain it, because physics is redundant as an efficient or existential explanation; and thus where necessity is as such that a beings existence can be inferred by absolute logic, metaphysics reigns with absolute authority.
 
NowAgnostic.

You are wrong.
I am not wrong, and neuroscience is yet another area where the metaphysicians will use all their intellectually dishonest tricks to attempt to deflect the very clear evidence coming from the empirical science.
I’ll point out again why: all functions have been not localised. Some functions have. Not all. Overstating your case weakens it.
What relevance does **localization **of function have? None. The brain functions as a **network **anyway, as best we can tell; it isn’t one area for this, another area for that; it’s how the regions work in tandem. But the point is, as you well know, that **all **functions **correlate **with physical activity **of some sort **in the brain; even consciousness, otherwise why would general anesthesia work?
Demstrating a link between an activity and increased function in a particular region **does not refute **an immaterial mind or soul.
Nor does demonstrating the laws of gravity refute, deductively, the hypothesis that angels are moving the planets and stars around - it’s a case of inference to the best explanation. The clear inductive conclusion in neuroscience is that if a mind or soul exists it does not function independently of the brain.
This is actually irrefutable -cannot be proved wrong . Just in case you think I’m saying that there is evidence to the contrary, which I am not, check up the meaning of the term irrefuteable and the term unfalsifiable.
An unfalsifiable hypothesis has no explanatory power.
Asd for talking about low p values - this does not strengthen your argument either. Probability theory does not have anything to do with scientific observation.Did you not read what I wrote??
But inferential statistics have **everything **to do with induction and generalization.
Some sciences do not use inferential statistics or any other statistics for that matter. For example - the structure and function of the heart has been demonstrated empirically through observation and experimentation (what happens if…). This is scientific evidence and it is empirical - it is not mathematical. **Experiments do not always use inferential statistics to test the hypotheses. **That damaging the left ventricle wall results in heart failure was first demonstrated by observation.
No, it wasn’t. It was only demonstrated in a **specific **heart, for a **specific **amount of left ventricle wall damage. To make a **generalization **from **specific **findings you need inferential statistics. How do you **generalize **the finding in **specific **individuals that damaging the left ventricle wall results in heart failure to the population at large, for a specific amount of damage?
 
As for the question of metaphysics, are you now saying that science can determine and predict the reality of “objective” ontological truth through empiricism without metaphysics?
Science will accept what metaphysicians can prove through logic (as opposed to mere bald assertion) as being necessary truths. For instance, science must accept the law of non-contradiction, and the axioms of mathematics. Empirical science deals with contingent truths, metaphysics with necessary ones. That’s the way it should be. What you don’t seem to see is that metaphysicians can overstep their boundaries, erring and making necessary truths out of what are in reality only contingent ones, which might be false, and science can discover them to be false. In this case it is the metaphysicians, not the scientists, who have erred, and no amount of beating the drums about the “authority” of metaphysics and against “scientism” is going to change that.
The problem is, whether you consciously do so or not, limiting reality to the interactions of finite beings, absolutely infers this position. But i am not going to explain why…
Copout. If you want to make a logical argument then make it.
In terms of ontological truth it must. As soon as it contradicts logic; it breaks itself off from its metaphysical foundations and its epistemological justifications.
No kidding. If you think a scientific finding is logically contradictory then feel free to explain the contradiction.
Its not surprising!😃 Scientism is not a logic based system. Its posing as science; but its a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and you are so attached to the idea that science has some how overridden any need to take the supernatural seriously…
I asked you for a definition of “natural” vs. “supernatural” which you have yet to provide. Until you do, I can’t verify or disconfirm this. Are angels considered “natural” or “supernatural” for instance?
Your wording is very vague here. First of all, to say that a thing comes to “exist” un-cuased, is to include metaphysical factors. I agree that the “quantum vacuum” is something, but something cannot be “existentially indeterminate” in regards to the possibility of its existence, and thus you must admit that any quantum event that happens to occur as a result has a “cause”; which is the quantum vacuum.
Well, the quantum vacuum certainly yields the potentiality for that thing to come to exist (makes it possible).
But such events comes to exist according to the form or principled nature of the vacuum and the potentiality that lay therein. It certainly isn’t the kind of cause that we would understand in the physical sense, but its understandable metaphysically speaking.
If you’re in agreement that there is no physical cause, then we’re in agreement. Perhaps you are making more out of this then I meant or scientists meant. When physicists say something is “uncaused”, they mean there is no physical cause.
Sooner or later you are going to reach a point, where physical explanations do not explain why things exist.
No kidding.
thus where necessity is as such that a beings existence can be inferred by absolute logic, metaphysics reigns with absolute authority.
Certainly, if there were a sound ontological proof I would accept it.
 
Your wording is very vague here. First of all, to say that a thing comes to “exist” un-cuased, is to include metaphysical factors.
Anything scientific ultimately obtains from a metaphysical commitment, but operationally, science is descriptive. Your attachments of metaphysics to “cause” here equivocates on cause, and misunderstands the scientific meaning of the term “cause”. I understand this is a difficulty, but it helps to keep in mind that your metaphysical notions of “cause” are alien, by design in science. So when we say that some phenomenon is “uncaused”, it’s not a metaphysical proposition, but a practical, physical one: no mechanism or process can currently be identified to explain this phenomenon in descriptive terms.

Science rests upon the metaphysical assumption that reality is real at least partly rational. It manifestly does not admit of “formal causes”, or even “efficient causes” as metaphysical necessities. It’s epistemology is much more conservative than would allow that – that’s just the kind of frivolous assumptions science aims to avoid, the very process of rendering nature “rational” in some degree, because such metaphysical commitments can be omitted.
I agree that the “quantum vacuum” is something, but something cannot be “existentially indeterminate” in regards to the possibility of its existence, and thus you must admit that any quantum event that happens to occur as a result has a “cause”; which is the quantum vacuum
. But such events comes to exist according to the form or principled nature of the vacuum and the potentiality that lay therein. It certainly isn’t the kind of cause that we would understand in the physical sense, but its understandable metaphysically speaking.Yes, but that’s the crux of the problem. “metaphysically understandable” is just a euphemism, a kind of counterfeiting of the concept of “understanding”.

Suppose I have some complicated math equation, which I just cannot make balance, no matter how I jigger things around. I’m stuck, and I do not understand. One option is to “cheat”, and arbitrarily add in some “metamathematical variable”, a nebulous “X factor” I can point on one side of the equation to magically make everything balance out.

Voilá! Now, thanks to the magical “metamathematical X” upgrade I have penciled in, I have balance in my equation, I have understanding.

Except I don’t. The maths are as confounded there as ever, I’ve just cheated the system, broken the mathematical epistemology. This is precisely what you are doing when you say it is something "certainly isn’t the kind of cause that we would understand in the physical sense". By invoking some arbitrary or merely intuitive “metaphysical cause”, you just opt out the epistemology, cheating the system that has been producing real knowledge. It may be that some part of nature’s fundamental dynamics are wholly acausal. I’m not committed to saying the are or must be, but it cannot be ruled, save for “cheating by metaphysics”. Perhaps nature is partly irrational in that way. That would not make nature any less rational in the parts we can and do understand in rational terms. Facts are stubborn things, though, and nature isn’t necessarily bound to conform to our puny and parochial metaphysical intuitions.

If natural is in some limited scope “fundamentally acausal”, it doesn’t care a whit that you say “But that can’t be! Every effect needs a cause!” It doesn’t even laugh, it’s just impersonal nature. But it would laugh at you if it could.

-TS
 
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MindOverMatter:
It doesn’t potentially come into existence “uncaused”, for that would be the same as saying that it got its principled nature from absolutely nothing; a state of non reality; which is absurd since nothing is not a state of being, and thus cannot be meaningful applied to real beings in terms of an explanation.
This fits into a continuing theme I have going here on this forum. These kinds of metaphysical commitments are incorrigible. One cannot learn very much about modern science, particular at the fundamental, quantum level, without facing the prospects of profound absurdity in many aspects of it. Nature as a whole remains astonishingly intelligible, symmetric, uniform, but at the lowest levels, the evidence works right against human intutions and the metaphysical superstitions that spring from them. The human mind either assents to the evidence, and understands that many aspects of physical reality do appear absurd or irrational, even as the whole is rendered highly intelligible, or it does not. Metaphysical commitments such as yours above force you into “not”.

Note that I’m not arguing for the converse, a metaphysical commitment to the irrationality of nature, or the perfect acausality of anything. Rather, I’m pointing out that it is fatuous to make *a priori *commitments either way. Science is metaphysically committed to some level of intelligibility, because that commitment is necessary to justifying any investigation at all. But it is not committed to ultimate, exhaustive or perfect intelligibility of nature. Nature may be highly irrational, unintelligible in some regards, even as it has become intelligible in others. Simplistic *a priori *rules only serve to impede and thwart one’s apprehension of what is, as it is.
It functions according to a principle intrinsic to its given
nature; and thats not any kind of a good reason to think that it came out nothing. Neither is their any reason to think that the quantum vacuum came out of nothing.Correct, but that’s only half the story. Neither is their any reason to thing the quantum vacuum came from something. In our human experience, we develop this intution that “something cannot come from nothing”, and this intuition is strongly attested by those experiences. But it’s based, we now know, on a naïve concept of “something” and “nothing”. When we see something “created” at human scales, it is always matter and energy being rearranged. Man does not witness fundamental creation in any part of his experience. And yet, he thinks he understands fundamental creation, confused by his local experience of “somethings always coming from something”. An oak tree comes from a seed, and the surrounding soil and nutrients, and lots of sunshine and rain.

Man supposes this physical experience is somehow metaphysical, often enough. But that is unwarranted. We have zero reason to suppose that physical dynamics and laws obtain in some metaphysical sense. They may, or they may not. We do not, and cannot know. All that remains is honesty (or not) concerning these epistemic limitations we have.
In respect of potentiality, it to functions according to its given nature; since out of nothing comes nothing. Sooner or later you are going to reach a point, where physical explanations do not explain why things exist. Science cannot explain it, because physics is redundant
as an efficient or existential explanation; and thus where necessity is as such that a beings existence can be inferred by absolute logic, metaphysics reigns with absolute authority.
You can balance any math equation if you grant yourself the cheat of penciling in a “metamathematical X” on one side to force a “balance” int the equation. Similarly, you can “understand” any physics problem if you allow yourself the cheat of the “metaphyisical X”, the “metaphysical cause”. Metaphysics can explain anything and everything, and isn’t accountable on any level to reality itself, for the very reason you state – it sees itself as the authority, the master over the enslaved reality. Subordinated thus, no evidence, no reasoning from nature can defeat it, even in principle.

This is madness, an utter divorce from reality itself. As soon as your metaphysics are not corrigible by experience, nature, extramental reality itself, but instead they are held as plenopotentiaries over all these, you’ve checked into the asylum. You’ve thrown away the key to the door of the cell, as reality and evidence and experience are your only way out, and the “absolute authority” of metaphysics makes that impossible.

-TS
 
virtual particles are caused by the scalar fields of a vacuum. they depend on a universe already existing, for their existence, hence virtual particles are contingnet. no universe. no virtual particles.
 
NowAgnostic,

Given your response I can only conclude that you know little about the philosophy of science, less about statistics and even less about neuroscience.

Difficulty with the concepts that MoM has explained to you is understandable, but not understanding that the existence of an immaterial soul is not a hypothesis that can be empirically tested, that not all science depends on mathematics and that the term scientific includes empirical methods other then mathematical is… surprising.

You honestly believe that generalisation can only occur if statistical tests are used? It seems that you have little knowledge about medicine either.

A statistical test is used to demonstarte whether a change in the DV is more likely to have occurred as a result of the IV than by chance.

Clinicians generalise all of the time on the basis of structural and functional similarity. The heart of person A will behave in the same way as the observed heart because it looks the same and the two (or more) are of the same or a similar species.

Drug trials do use statistics however in order to assess whether the drug is effective.
 
…if one makes a statement that apply to someone else.
If someone claims to know something that should apply to everyone, and that everyone is supposed to believe those claims, I want a method to prove that those claims are valid. There is yet no other functioning method than the scientific one to do that. Period.

Revelations I did not receive are irrelevant.
Opinions I do not share are irrelevant.

An emprical fact has normative power. It is relevant.
i think that any call for solely empirical evidence for the validity of any idea, first is not one that people actually function by, i.e., people believe in things like animal emotions.

and secondly is really a goal serving solipsism, if this were true everyone would be Christian in that the odds of Messianic Prophecy are mathematically undeniable. that is an undeniable empirical fact.

however emprical facts dont explain a great number of things that need explaining, free will, ontology, the axiomatic roots of logical systems, cosmogony, causality, etc.

simply ignoring these questions doesnt make their investigation fruitless, as we see when we consider that the metaphysician asking these and other questions is the very foundation of science, so every time someone qoutes science, they are qouting the millenia of metaphysical investigations upon which it is founded as a valid manner in which to explore the nature of reality.
 
i think that any call for solely empirical evidence for the validity of any idea,
That was not my point. I agree that there is a lot more in this world than empirical facts, and that metaphysics has its merits.
BUT, to determine the truth of a statement, that should universally apply to everyone, there should be a universally acceptable method to do that. And the scientific method is a working method to do that. (Yes, I know, that is metaphysics already.)

Now, religions make a lot of statements of which truth cannot be established by scientific means. Like “Jesus died for everybody’s sins” or “Evil deeds build up bad karma”. There is no objective reason to simply accept a set of those statements. So, as long as religious people do not extend their claims to other people I see no problem, but doing so requires such an objective reason, an objective method to established truth.
 
That was not my point. I agree that there is a lot more in this world than empirical facts, and that metaphysics has its merits.
BUT, to determine the truth of a statement, that should universally apply to everyone, there should be a universally acceptable method to do that. And the scientific method is a working method to do that. (Yes, I know, that is metaphysics already.)
the facts of the scientific method are facts regardless of the existence people. they apply equally in the sense that they are mechanical truths. religion doesnt make those mechanistic claims. its kind of an apples and oranges situations. they simply speak about different things.
Now, religions make a lot of statements of which truth cannot be established by scientific means. Like “Jesus died for everybody’s sins” or “Evil deeds build up bad karma”. There is no objective reason to simply accept a set of those statements.
scientific means are not the only way to establish truth. you cant apply them to these non-physical truths here that are in qoutes. it stands to follow then that science cannot speak to their truth.

that doesnt mean however that there arent objective reasons to accept their truth. otherwise, who would? the Disciples were convinced by what they experienced, so much so that they died for what they had experienced in those three years spent with Christ. the people who followed the disciples also experienced the miracles that the Disciples performed, lives they lived, and themselves became martyrs. choosing to die torturously rather than betray what they had seen with their own eyes. id say that all of Christianity is based on empirical facts, simply ones that you havent experienced, now, 2000 years removed from the events. however, even in this case there is empirical evidence. Messianic Prophecy makes Christianity mathematically undeniable. a bare fact .
So, as long as religious people do not extend their claims to other people I see no problem, but doing so requires such an objective reason, an objective method to established truth.
so in short there are objective, empirical facts that back these statements of Christianity. mathematics is a formal way to establish the truth of these statements and and therefore make every person ever alive subject to them.
 
if this were true everyone would be Christian in that the odds of Messianic Prophecy are mathematically undeniable. that is an undeniable empirical fact.
Hi Warp,

I’m not familiar with this argument, would you mind telling me about it please? I am always interested in learning new things!

Thanks
 
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