? on St. John of Cross "Ascent"

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I’ve been reading St. John of the Cross and have a simple question. In his “Ascent” he says that one must be purged of all one’s affection for all things that are not God. Maybe I’m jumping the gun by asking this, as I haven’t even gotten 1/2 way through the book, but I’m uneasy about continuing without finding out if this can really be a good thing, or perhaps I am misunderstanding something?
He talks about depriving the senses. My question is: If God made us with senses, and made things pleasing to those senses, isn’t it wrong to abandon taking pleasure in those things? For instance: I like music. Is it really an obstacle to the way of perfection if I listen to it? Or is he saying here that we just shouldn’t be attached to it? Or is he saying that we should abstain for something greater (God) even if it’s hard to do. Or are we waiting for God to give us the grace to want to abstain; to no longer have any pleasure in anything but Him?

I’m sure I haven’t articulated my question the way I’d like, but this was the best way I could put it.

Thanks,
~donna
 
Dear Joy,
My question is: If God made us with senses, and made things pleasing to those senses, isn’t it wrong to abandon taking pleasure in those things? For instance: I like music.
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St. John’s goal is to bring our joy in the senses to right ordering. Since you are only half way in the book, you have yet to read his beautiful chapters concerning the proper use of joy. See Bk. III, Ch. 24, sect. 5:
Whenever a person, upon hearing music or other things, seeing agreeable objects, smelling sweet fragrances, or feeling the delight of certain tastes and delicate touches, immediately at the first movement directs his thought and the affection of his will to God, receiving more satisfaction in the thought of God than in the sensible object that caused it, and finds no gratification in the senses save for this motive, it is a sign that he is profitting by the senses and that the sensory part is a help to the spirit.

The senses can then be used because the sensorial objects serve the purpose for which God created them: that He be more known and loved through them.
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However, before we come to the point of directing our joy in the use of our senses primarily to God, it takes a good deal of purgation and discipline; hence necessity of the “night” of the senses. This may also include some reformation of our spiritual senses, especially with regard to consolations.

Here’s a personal example that God taught me. I had a real difficult time wearing fashionable clothes and this became a hindrance to charity in the presence of others, for I became self-absorbed in my appearance.

To remedy it, I put my desire in the “night” of darkness, by wearing a uniform which I sewed, and I cut off all other clothing except this. I was prepared to wear this forever, but after six months, my husband grew weary of seeing me in the uniform and voiced his dissatisfaction. Being submissive to him, I went back into street clothes, but to my great amazement, the old problem was no longer there. I was totally free, and I was able to dress unto the Lord. That was about 30 or so years ago, and the temptation has never returned to bother me.

I hope this little confession has been helpful to you. You need to keep in mind, though, that this discipline is necessary for only those things in our lives that are dis-orderded, and not used in their proper relationship to God. He will make you aware of what these are and suggest a means to remedy it. Sometimes it is a case of cold turkey, cutting it off at the source (like the eye and hand Jesus spoke of in scripture).

Carole
 
Donna,
I have not read “Ascent” but am reading “Dark Night of the Soul.” It tackels each of the capital sins and why they are to be conquered.

You can find a free copy here:
carmelite.com/saints/john/works/dn.htm

We can listen to music. We must live our life. We can’t shut ourselves down. That isn’t what God wants for us, or we would all be hermits. 😃

Jesus says that we must die to ourselves. Instead of praying for our will to be done, we pray for God’s will to be done. I read recentely that we are here not conquer the world but ourselves. It is us alone that keep us from God. To conquer our wills, this is difficult. It is a baby step at a time with many steps back as well.

There are others on the forum who can do a much better job at explaining this. Also read the Dark Night it was a great help for me.

Peace,
Jen
 
Thank you both for your replies. I have read Dark Night a few times, but it has been quite a while ago. I used to be an aspirant to the secular order of Discaled Carmelites and at one of our retreats I picked up an old library copy of St. John’s collected works. That was years ago, and I’m finally starting to read it.

Carole, I can completely relate to what you did about clothing. I’ve done this before too. I made myself wear a sort of “habit” if you will - and I did this for many years. I did everything I could to withdraw from the temptation toward vanity. I was so extreme that I almost completely withdrew from public. Funny thing is that one day I just decided that I had made myself ugly for long enough. I thought of my husband too and how he hadn’t fallen in love with a shabby unkept woman. I don’t feel tempted anymore when I go out and I’m not scrupulous about my appearance anymore.

I did read a bit further and St. John says that he isn’t speaking about erradicating our natural appetites, but our voluntary ones. I think I’m getting confused with all of this b/c I am probably trying to tie some of this into what I’ve read about St. Gemma Galgani. She mortified her natural senses as well and even prayed, for example, that God would remove from her the satisfaction of taste for food. I don’t think just DOING such things unites one to God. Perhaps if you love God with such purity of heart, you will never cease to look for things to offer Him. It appears to me that St. Gemma did so in every circumstance and in every aspect of her life. But I, for one, need these sensory experiences; they bring to mind God’s goodness in having created such pleasures.
Well, that does clarify this for me then. I was afraid to proceed b/c I know that such mortifications (of natural appetites) are definately beyond my capacity at this point in my little journey of faith!
When I am done with “Ascent” I will definately re-read “Dark Night”.
You might find this amusing: I was raised Catholic but soon fell away in my late teens. When I was about 25 I had a conversion experience and came back to the Church. I knew I had to make a confession, and was preparing for this, when I discovered St. Therese of Lisieux. Through a book about her canonization I discovered St. John. So, I was relatively new in my “journey” (or at least, the one I was now paying attention to!) when I read “Dark Night of the Soul”. In addition to the numerous things I had already made note of to confess in my first confession in about 10 years (and it was already a LONG list!) I then added, b/c of my reading of “Dark Night”, all of those spiritual imperfections I was falling into since my conversion. THAT POOR PRIEST-LOL! I was just rambling off things one by one. What a nut I must have seemed-LOL! I was really zealous and wanted to make sure I’d covered everything-lol! Anyway, I made the poor priest endure more than that in that first year of zeal; constantly calling him asking questions. Funny, he did leave the parish a few months later - maybe I scared him away-LOL!
Again, thanks for your replies!
Godspeed!
~donna
Oh, and if you haven’t read the life of St. Gemma Galgani, do so. Very powerful. Reminded me a bit of St. Catherine of Sienna - knocked my socks off! If only I knew how to love God that much!
 
Hi Donna,

I was intrigued by your story which is so similar to mine, and it seems we both have the word “joy” in our user names. We both had conversions in our mid-life as well … praise God! And we both had tons of questions for our priest, no doubt due to our zeal for truth and cleanliness of soul. That must be what conversions produce in us with the Spirit’s help. 😉

Yes, I have the biography of St. Gemma, and read it many times. Remember, she received a directive from St. Gabriel of the Sorrowful Mother to enter the Passionist order. I suppose that is why she was so moved to do these penances, but I was never attracted to this type of spirituality. It was the little way of St. Therese that won my heart. Maybe that’s why I’m a carmelite.

Extreme penances are not well advised by St. Teresa of Jesus, as you may have read, and we have to be careful in choosing those which mortify our disordered inclinations and bring our will into harmony with God’s. St. Gemma had her own path to follow, but it may not be good for the rest of us to imitate. St. Francis de Sales was very helpful and practical in this respect in his *Introduction to Devout Life, *which is written for lay persons desiring to follow Christ more perfectly.

Incidentally, I also have the biography of St. Gabriel (St. Gemma’s helpmate) and he is so much like little St. Therese. His “Resolutions” are extremely simple on the surface, but try living them out!!! One that I remember at this writing is, “I will not seek to know anything through mere curiosity.” Tough!

Carole
 
Yes, it was because of Therese that I decided to become a Carmelite too, but I’ve never been able to so much as receive my scapular in the 9 years or so since I first became an aspirant. Every time I prepare to receive it, just before the big day I feel like I have to back out - all kinds of doubts arise. I’ve gone through this 3 times now, and a few years ago I finally decided to stop. It’s been very difficult since and I feel like I’ve really backslided a lot in my spirituality the past several years. Until recently, I wasn’t even able to set my mind on spiritual reading. As you can see, I don’t post often and my spiritual troubles, which seem to escalate year by year, are the main reason why.
That is why I am reading St. John of the Cross again, but I’d like to read all his works. This book begins with Ascent, then Night, then Spiritual Canticle and then Living Flame and some ‘minor works’ and poetry. I remember some of Dark NIght and don’t remember it being helpful to me, but that was many years ago. I wonder if the book is compiled in the order it is b/c Ascent should be read first?
Anyway, I do have Introduction to Devout Life also, and again, it’s been a while since I read it. Maybe I’ll dust that one off too. I’ve been thinking about reading St. Gabriel. I didn’t know he was like Therese. That way is anything BUT little! Yes, I wouldn’t know what use extreme penances would be for me when I can hardly tolerate the ‘little’ things that come about in my ordinary life!
It’s been a “joy” sharing with you!🙂
~donna
 
RESOLUTIONS OF ST. GABRIEL OF THE SORROWFUL MOTHER

I will keep my rule, even the smallest.

I will not neglect any of my spiritual exercises.

Shun idleness.

I will be punctual.

I will obey the sound of the bell as though it were the voice of God.

I will receive all things from the hand of God, as being sent by Him for my own personal benefit.

I will profit by every occasion for mortification that may occur.

I will fulfill exactly my ordinary duties, mortifying self in whatever would prove an obstacle to perfect obedience.

I will mortify my eyes and my tongue.

I will not leave my cell without necessity.

I will not inquire after anything through curiosity.

I will check my desire to talk.

I will increase the number of such like acts daily.

I will not take any food outside of mealtime.

I am poor and I should act accordingly.

I should be willing to put up with any inconvenience gladly.

I will not eat with avidity, but rather with reserve and with modesty, subjecting my appetite to reason.

I will mortify myself in ordinary things and whatever I feel inclined to do, saying in my heart: *“O my God, I will not do this thing through mere inclination, but because it is thy will”. *

I will be reserved toward those to whom I feel most inclined, prudently avoiding their presence and conversation.

I will not utter a word that might, in the least, turn to my praise.

I will not take pleasure in any praise bestowed upon me.

I will never excuse myself when I am blamed or corrected, nor even resent it interiorly, much less put the blame upon others.

I will never speak of the faults of others, even though they may be public, nor will I ever show want of esteem for others, whether in their presence or in their absence.

I will not judge ill of anyone.

I will show the good opinion I have of each one by covering up his faults.

I will consider everyone my superior, treating all with humility and reverence.

I will rejoice at the good done by others.

I will not permit myself to become interested in vain and useless things.

I will rejoice at the success of others.

I will practice charity and kindness, assisting, serving and pleasing all.

I will shun particular friendships, so as to offend no one.

Every morning and evening I will practice some act of humility, and gradually increase the number.

I will close my heart against disquiet of any kind.

I will suppress immediately all emotions of impetuosity and all affections that might cloud my mind, even lightly.

I will obey the voice of the Superior as if it were the voice of God himself.

In my obedience I will neither examine the why nor the *wherefore. *

I will conform my judgment to that of my Superior.

I will not employ time in conversing about purely worldly matters.

“Faithfulness in little things” is the motto I will always follow in my efforts to reach holiness.

I will try to reproduce in myself whatever I see edifying and virtuous in the conduct of others.

I will give to God the best that I have – the entire affection of my heart.
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Dear Donna,

As you can see, there are a lot of similarities with St. Therese.

You may want to read the Profile of an OCDS to help you with your discernment.
From the Article:
It is not any one element that discerns the person who has the vocation to Carmel as a Secular. It is the combination that makes the difference.
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Carole
 
Hi Donna,
That is why I am reading St. John of the Cross again, but I’d like to read all his works. This book begins with Ascent, then Night, then Spiritual Canticle and then Living Flame and some ‘minor works’ and poetry.I remember some of Dark NIght and don’t remember it being helpful to me, but that was many years ago. I wonder if the book is compiled in the order it is b/c Ascent should be read first?
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Perhaps the Ascent should be read first, because St. John goes into a lot of detail concerning our appetites and desires, as you know. The latter two parts of this book may not apply to everyone setting out on the spiritual path because it treats of supernatural apprehensions, but a little foreknowledge of the dangers these may cause with the purity of one’s faith will be helpful. Even if one is not accustomed to personally receiving them, it is good to be able to point others in the right direction, should the occasion arise. It may also prevent inordinate and dangerous appetites for supernatural phenomena when you realize the harm one can encounter with respect to them.

The Dark Night may not be helpful, either, other than the first part which explains the night of sense. In Carmel, we study these works, and they provide good familiarity, even though one is not experiencing the walk of dark spiritual purgation.

Carole
 
As a Master of Formation in the Discalced Carmelite Secular Order (OCDS), I was taught (by Provincial Superiors) that a good Program of Formation in Carmelite Spirituality advises against studying the Ascent and the Night first among St. John’s works. The Canticle and the Living Flame are best to start with, as well as the shorter writings, like the Precautions and Counsels.

When one gets to the heavy stuff, collateral guiding literature is recommended so that one avoids misunderstandings like we are talking about here. Customarily used in Carmelite formation for this purpose is: I Want to See God/I Am a Daughter of the Church, by Fr. Marie-Eugene, OCD. Fr. Thomas Dubay’s *Fire Within * is very Good, as is Susan Muto’s *John of the Cross for Today * series.

Without sound assistance in studying sanjuanist spiritual doctrine, many have been misled into grave errors - e.g., Buddhistic interpretations…I’ve found that it also helps to make direct personal appeals to the Saintly Writers themselves, to obtain aid in understanding their teachings rightly!

God Bless your studies,
  • Timothy of Mary, OCDS
 
Dear Timothy,
Without sound assistance in studying sanjuanist spiritual doctrine, many have been misled into grave errors - e.g., Buddhistic interpretations…
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Maybe so for the Dark Night, as it pertains to the spirit, but I cannot agree that the Ascent would pose a similar danger. Actually, I enjoyed John’s many scriptural references and mentally tucked away for future reference the dangers of rejoicing in supernatural phenomena. He is excellent in describing how easily our appetites draw us away from God – very apropo for a beginner. Lest you wonder, I also served as Mistress of Formation, but I was never taught a particular ordering of his works. Lastly of all, IMO, should anyone begin their initial studies with the Living Flame, for it is the state of the perfect. Interesting the differences in Carmel, isn’t it? Our provincial believed we should start with Way of Perfection.

Maybe it would be better to school a beginner in the works of St. Therese or Elizabeth of the Trinity, rather than St. John. I have the copies you mentioned from Father Eugene-Marie, but he is writing the life of St. Teresa of Avila. For some reason, I did not find either book helpful. I preferred reading St. Teresa’s own words, actually.

As for Father Dubay, I have the highest esteem for his writings, but in Carmel, the vocation is to study the Carmelite authors, rather than commentators on Carmelite authors. I trust you do this in your meetings?

Kind regards,
Carole
 
Hello Timothy,

During a few years of my “aspirancy” I sat in on a few classes about The Way of Perfection but didn’t actually follow along in the book. I have read much of it, though, in bits and pieces over time. I have all of Theresa’s collected writings also, but I haven’t looked at anything other than “The Way”.

I no longer visit the Carmelites, partly b/c of the troubles I’ve been having, as I mentioned previously, and partly b/c my family has grown significantly over the years and it’s no longer possible for me to attend the day-long meetings at the monastery an hour away that they have every month. And I can’t be a ‘solitary’ without first having had the customary formation and made promises and so forth which you need to be present on a monthly basis in order to do.
Anyway, perhaps I will continue cautiously with what I’ve already begun in Ascent. I remember several talks by the priest on our retreats about his other works - especially Living Flame. I thoroughly enjoyed those talks!
I know what you mean about Buddhistic interpretations and I admit that, having studied Buddhism, this has caused me serious trouble and still does to an extent.

Thank you both for your recommendations! I will probably just devour the whole book and then move on to Theresa. I don’t know if that’s the best course of action for me or not, but until I find a spiritual director (been looking for 8+years now!) I’ll just have to stick to reading.

Bless You!
~donna
 
Carole,
I too felt the same way about Flame, but it was recommended (from above) for beginners inasmuch as it is the only major work of John explicitly written for a lay readership, easier to understand - and though emphasizing the spiritual life of those in transformation, it does also present useful, easily-comprehended summarizations of the earlier stages. I didn’t mean to imply that there was (at that time) an official sequence of study, only passing on the advice I then received.

I look forward to receiving soon our Province’s official formation guide! Back when I was formation director, one was on his own. With official approval, I did use Fire Within in formation as an introduction to the spiritual doctrine of our Founders, before progressing to the original works themselves. I still highly recommend it for beginners. It’s a good synthesis of both Saints, as is Fr. Marie-Eugene.

I strongly feel that our “novices” should not be given Elizabeth or Therese in formation - as much as I ardently love the two! - because we want them molded into St.Teresa’s life & teaching first and foremost, and then St. John. (I’ve run into too many Lay Carmelites who know everything about Therese, but next to nothing about O.H.Father and O.H.Mother!) Yet, we hope to ensure that everyone is getting a good grounding in Sabeth, too, in this Centennial Anniversary of her death!

In Our Lady’s Order,
Tim, unworthy lay carmelite
 
Hi Timothy,

I guess I forgot that we used different text for the novices. As Formation Director, my duty was also to give talks to the regular membership each month, for a small portion of the meeting. In private study with the aspirants, however, the focus was to help them understand their vocation and the Rule.

As for the community, I did not specifically pick a topic, but tried to go along with the chosen study material they were presently using, and offer some deeper insights on it.

And like you, my very favorite of all is Holy Mother St. Teresa of Jesus!!! Amen!!! (I rarely admit my preferences publicly, but I could not resist this one!)

God’s peace and joy be with you,
Carole
 
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JoyToBeCatholic:
I’ve been reading St. John of the Cross and have a simple question. In his “Ascent” he says that one must be purged of all one’s affection for all things that are not God. Maybe I’m jumping the gun by asking this, as I haven’t even gotten 1/2 way through the book, but I’m uneasy about continuing without finding out if this can really be a good thing, or perhaps I am misunderstanding something?
He talks about depriving the senses. My question is: If God made us with senses, and made things pleasing to those senses, isn’t it wrong to abandon taking pleasure in those things? For instance: I like music. Is it really an obstacle to the way of perfection if I listen to it? Or is he saying here that we just shouldn’t be attached to it? Or is he saying that we should abstain for something greater (God) even if it’s hard to do. Or are we waiting for God to give us the grace to want to abstain; to no longer have any pleasure in anything but Him?

I’m sure I haven’t articulated my question the way I’d like, but this was the best way I could put it.

Thanks,
~donna
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He was writing for Carmelites - not for the laity. So what may be sound practical advice for a Carmelite religious, will not always be good advice for Christians living an entirely different kind of life.​

 
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Joysong:
Our provincial believed we should start with Way of Perfection.
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Hi Carole 🙂

For those following along, I am currently in formation as a Secular Carmelite. I know the formation program has gone through some pretty big changes in the last few years. Here’s how it’s gone for me thusfar:

The first year was devoted to introductory matters regarding discerment and things like the Rule and OCDS Constitutions. The first year culminates with clothing in the Brown Scapular.

The second year of formation begins with 6 months devoted to “The Way of Perfection” as Carole said here as the starting point to the Carmelite saints and their teachings. I believe “Interior Castle” is the next 6 months but I might be mistaken on that (I’ll find out next month when I get my assignments!).

St. John’s “Ascent” and Father Dubay’s “Fire Within” come latter. I believe St. Therese is last of all.

Interestingly, I heard the same comment from our Provincial that Timothy said about beginning St. John with the “Spiritual Canticle” or “Living Flame.” I’m not sure, though, if that was simply his personal opinion. Personally, St. John can be pretty tough to follow at times . . . but “Spiritual Canticle” seems to speak to me most clearly 🙂

Again I might be mistaken, but I think the “Ascent” is the primary St. John text used in formation right now . . .

Dave.
 
I didn’t realize there was secular carmelites on this forum. I am also a Third Order Carmelite. But O.Carm. Do you know of any.
I read St. John of the Cross when I was 17 and I actually understood him. Most people I know like. St. Teresa I prefer St. John of the Cross. He is my spiritual director. I have yet to find a real spiritual director. God Bless you both in your Vocations as Carmelites.
Linda
 
Dear Gottle,

Saint John of the Cross wrote The Living Flame of Love for a laywoman, Dona Ana de Penalosa!
His other major works were certainly intended for religious, primarily the Discalced Carmelite Nuns. However, Secular Carmelites ideally receive formation in discerning how sanjuanist spiritual doctrine applies to the lay state of life.
 
Dear Joy,
I hope that someday you will reconsider a potential vocation to Carmel. Even those who went on to become great Carmelite Saints had deep misgivings when it came time to be clothed or professed. Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity is a good example of this. Trials at those times actually seem to be somewhat par for the course. When working with my lay novices I encountered many different forms of doubt, reasons for backing out or postponing, etc. Most of these people did have genuine vocations. The ones who actually worried me were the ones who were most certain of themselves…
 
To Joysong,
How do I find the thread on Ascent. Someone mentioned it in a post, perhaps it may have been you. There are so many threads and I don’t know where to begin looking.
Blessings,
Linda
 
Hi Michael,
He was writing for Carmelites - not for the laity. So what may be sound practical advice for a Carmelite religious, will not always be good advice for Christians living an entirely different kind of life.
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I have been an aspirant to the Carmelites. I don’t read St. John, St. Theresa or anyone else necessarily b/c they are Carmelites. I was scarcely a re-vert to the Church when I happened upon St. Therese “accidentally”. I went to the library looking for books about St. Rita of Cascia when the only name I could recall was St. Therese of Lisieux. I don’t know where I had heard of her before, but it was the only name I could remember and I took out 4 books on her. I knew it was wrong when I saw a picture of the nun on the cover and Rita was married. Anyway, I read them and through her was drawn to Carmel and read about the people she talked about: St. John and St. Theresa. I discovered “The Imitation of Christ” through her. I discovered the Third Order of the Discalced through her too. It’s not that I am looking for things Carmelite, but I feel as though I am a Carmelite at heart b/c I can relate very well to it’s charisms.

I know you are all trying to recommend to me the best course of action as far as what to read first and so on, and I do appreciate that :). I don’t know where I am in my prayer-life - in fact, I don’t even seem to have even had one the past few years! So, I suppose that makes it harder to determine where I should be in reading.

Earlier I had said that I sat in on talks about “Way of Perfection”, but now I remember that it was “Interior Castle”, but I’ve never actually read any of it. On retreat with the Carmelites about 5 years ago, there were a few talks given on, I think, Living Flame, which very much touched me.

I will look into some of the books and authors mentioned. I know I’ve seen some shows on EWTN with Fr. Dubay. Thank you all for all your advice!
Godspeed!
~donna
 
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