? on St. John of Cross "Ascent"

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I think this IS the Ascent thread.
Our old formation program:
We started off with the Divine Office, since training in that is good for ALL Catholics. Then we had some material which explained very simply our Carmelite history and spirituality. Carmelite Spirituality in the Teresian Tradition (Fr. Paul-Marie of the Cross) was esp. good for this. Then basic study of the Rule of Life, and a biography of St. Teresa, followed by the Catechism’s section on prayer, and then the Way of Perfection. Then, Fr. Dubay’s Fire Within, and the Precautions, Counsels, Letters, Poetry, and Sayings of St. John of the Cross, followed by the Ascent. Then, St. T’s Interior Castle, and St.J’s Living Flame.
 
The teaching of St. John of the Cross in the Ascent, re: purification from inordinate attachments and desires applies to all the faithful equally, religious and lay. As Fr. Dubay points out in Fire Within, it is no more or less than the teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! The manner in which it is practiced will be the only distinction.
 
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tjmiller:
Dear Joy,
I hope that someday you will reconsider a potential vocation to Carmel. Even those who went on to become great Carmelite Saints had deep misgivings when it came time to be clothed or professed. Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity is a good example of this. Trials at those times actually seem to be somewhat par for the course. When working with my lay novices I encountered many different forms of doubt, reasons for backing out or postponing, etc. Most of these people did have genuine vocations. The ones who actually worried me were the ones who were most certain of themselves…
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I do still consider it, but I cannot make the monthly meetings at the time. 3 times I tried to receive the scapular, but each time I withdrew against the advice of my directors in formation. My reception was always planned for the time proceeding Easter, which has been a time with the most trouble for me year after year.
The more I reminisce about all of this, the more depressed I am. I’m just so disappointed by the direction my spiritual life has been going. It was an incredible conversion and my prayer life really seemed to take-off. Everything was heaven on earth for the first few years and it’s been anything but ever since. I really need a spiritual director. I get emotional and spiritual over-load whenever I try to make sense out of the things that have happened over the years. Maybe I should post-pone John of the Cross for a while and go back to a more simple approach.
Thank you all for your advice. I realize now that I’m just not ready to go back into this heavy stuff. I don’t know if it was b/c of reading deep things like this that led me to my troubles in the beginning or not, but I’m afraid I shouldn’t dive in again without more direction. I think I’ll end my reading on Ascent and stick with his poetry or something.
Godspeed,~donna
 
Dear Joy,
I realize now that I’m just not ready to go back into this heavy stuff. I don’t know if it was b/c of reading deep things like this that led me to my troubles in the beginning or not, but I’m afraid I shouldn’t dive in again without more direction.
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It is not good to have one’s spirit in turmoil, for God is a God of peace! I agree … you may need to do some lighter reading. St. Francis de Sales has written specifically for laypersons in the Introduction I mentioned earlier, and it will not tax your brain or spirit to understand his spiritual direction. His feast day is coming soon, Jan. 24th, and maybe a novena to him for help in developing a solid devotional routine would be helpful.

St. Teresa’s Way of Perfection is lighter reading, too, but keep in mind that it was written for her sisters in community, and not all of it would apply to the laity. But her advice and teaching on mental and vocal prayer, and some of her later chapters on the Our Father are excellent!

Best regards,
Carole
 
It is not good to have one’s spirit in turmoil, for God is a God of peace!
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Very good point!

I do have Introduction to Devout Life and again, it’s been a while since I’ve read it. I will try to find it and start reading that again. I don’t think I can resist reading St. John’s poetry though ;).

I’ve never read Thomas Merton before, and I’ve enjoyed some of his writing in John Michael Talbot’s music. Do you have any experience with his writing? I’ve been thinking about getting something on him.

Thanks,
~donna
 
Hi Joy,

I tried to read Merton’s Seeds of Contemplation (I think that’s the name of it) many years ago, thinking it would be as wonderful an inspiration as Seven Story Mountain. It took a tremendous amount of discipline to stay with it, for it was so dry and repugnant to my spirit that I never read anything further by him. Besides, I did not learn anything from it. It’s like one of those movies we rent that we keep hoping will get better, so we stay with it, even though we are groaning inwardly.

As we spoke earlier, and as St. Francis will confirm, spiritual reading that is of God’s leading should always bring a fruitful peace. Quite often we carry joyful little “nosegays” of devotion afterwards throughout the day, to use Francis’s oldtime terminology, as we recall what we read and as our hearts are lifted up to God. If our reading does not inspire us, it is a sign it is not where God wants us, and can be a waste of time. We could be better employed in meditating upon works that help us to grow in His love and embrace virtue.

Speaking of John Talbot, I used to spend many hours during the day — not reading — but listening to albums such as his and praising God as I went about my chores. I highly recommend this if reading is not helpful. There are many ways to grow in devotion!

🙂 Carole
 
👋 Hi Dave,

I had a sneaky feeling you might pop in here, my friend! 😃 Good to see you, as always!
The first year was devoted to introductory matters regarding discerment and things like the Rule and OCDS Constitutions. The first year culminates with clothing in the Brown Scapular.
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I almost forgot another important part of formation for the aspirants – instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours. How true it is that there is so much to learn in the beginning. However, when I was joining, we had the wonderful benefit of a Carmelite nun who had special permission from her prioress to begin a new chapter. We had meetings in the convent and had evening prayer with the sisters afterwards. She was so inspiring that the meetings just flew by!

Yes, Spiritual Canticle is sooooo special!

Carole
 
If our reading does not inspire us, it is a sign it is not where God wants us, and can be a waste of time
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Very good advice, thank you. I"ve never really considered that, and that puts a lot of the books I have ‘on hold’ so to speak!
Speaking of John Talbot, I used to spend many hours during the day — not reading — but listening to albums such as his and praising God as I went about my chores. I highly recommend this if reading is not helpful.
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His music always works like charm for me too!
Godspeed!
~donna
 
Hello, Linda,

Just in case you were looking for a link and not a thread, for the Ascent, you can read the book on line here.

To be honest, I’m not sure whether there are any O-Carm members on the forum. There was a thread on the board recently that inquired whether anyone belonged to the third order of Carmel. I don’t have the link, but maybe the search tool will provide the information for you.

So happy to meet you! I will look forward to reading your thoughts on the forum.

Carole
 
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JoyToBeCatholic:
I’ve been reading St. John of the Cross and have a simple question. In his “Ascent” he says that one must be purged of all one’s affection for all things that are not God. Maybe I’m jumping the gun by asking this, as I haven’t even gotten 1/2 way through the book, but I’m uneasy about continuing without finding out if this can really be a good thing, or perhaps I am misunderstanding something?
He talks about depriving the senses. My question is: If God made us with senses, and made things pleasing to those senses, isn’t it wrong to abandon taking pleasure in those things? For instance: I like music. Is it really an obstacle to the way of perfection if I listen to it? Or is he saying here that we just shouldn’t be attached to it? Or is he saying that we should abstain for something greater (God) even if it’s hard to do. Or are we waiting for God to give us the grace to want to abstain; to no longer have any pleasure in anything but Him?

Thanks,
~donna
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Hi there Donna…there is a Carmelite Discussion forum on the internet, which discusses all things Carmelite which just may be of some assistance to you. The archives are a wealth of Carmelite info specifically, aside from the recent Threads and Posts. The link is:

groups.yahoo.com/group/cincarm/

Regards Barb:)
 
Thanks for those links, BarbaraTherese. I will check them out. I’ve put aside Ascent for now and I’m looking through Impact of God which was recommended on a Carmelite retreat a few years ago. So far so good.
~donna
 
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