On the Edge

[HoBo30]

Consider this a cry for help:

I converted a little over a year ago and I’m already at my wits end w/ religion in general. The entire “it’s this way or hell, there’s no middle ground” mentality wears thin very fast. As weak as people are, there is no way to escape sin, none what-so-ever, especially when sin is defined so broadly.

I’m not ready to say there is no God, that’s a very scary proposition and I don’t believe it to be true.

If I’m going to be a Christian, I’m going to be Catholic, to be Christian and anything but Catholic is illogical.

But that gets me to a bigger question: Even if there is a God (which I believe there is), what makes us so sure that we’ve got it right? I’m not looking for an answer based on Scripture or the Catechism, there are other religions that have holy texts that provide a basis for why they’ve got it right.

I can’t see through any of this and I’m about to give up. Any (valid) arguments why I shouldn’t?

 

[123rock]

The arguments against Christianity don’t have much merit. In my opinion, the skeptical scholarship against the New Testament, particularly the gospels which is its center of focus, is going to collapse soon.

Your question is why Christianity over everything else? Read these 17 reasons why Christianity is the true faith: tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html

There is clear evidence of inspiration regarding a few verses, particularly in the Old Testament, but if you truly wanted to find God, you’d find them yourself.

 

[kell0618]

If you leave, you will score one for Satan. That would be reason enough for me, but perhaps not good enough for you.

“We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong.” --G.K. Chesterton

No one ever said that being a better Christian would be easy. If they did, they lied. **Being Christian is easy; being a better Christian is sometimes seemingly impossible. --**me

 

[HoBo30]

There is clear evidence of inspiration regarding a few verses, particularly in the Old Testament, but if you truly wanted to find God, you’d find them yourself.

Thank you for being oh-so understanding.

While the 17 points that you posted make very good sense, I’m sure there were just as many obstacles to the rise of Islam, for example. I want to stick my powers of reason in the back of my head and forget about it, but then again, God is the God of reason, so to do that would be defeating the purpose. I hate myself and want to die! (that’s a joke)

 

[tdgesq]

Tomorrow is Divine Mercy Sunday. I would urge you to go and pay particular attention to the Gospel reading. St. Thomas had the same kind of doubts that you expressing here. Catholicism is not about guilt - it is about the inexplicable mercy of God through his Son, Jesus Christ. I would give you an answer that comes solely through natural theology, but I don’t believe it would help nearly as much as attending Mass tomorrow and paying attention to the Gospel.

 

[123rock]

While the 17 points that you posted make very good sense, I’m sure there were just as many obstacles to the rise of Islam, for example.

Islam was established through military conquests.

I want to stick my powers of reason in the back of my head and forget about it, but then again, God is the God of reason, so to do that would be defeating the purpose. I hate myself and want to die! (that’s a joke)

If you mean that you want to have faith without showing that Christianity is true, yet show that Christianity is true so that you don’t have blind faith, if you don’t know much about the Bible, when you start reading skeptical literature, believe me you will need faith in order to show that Christianity isn’t blind faith.

But to abandon the religion simply due to nagging doubts is in my opinion unprofessional Hope I helped you and you weren’t being sarcastic.

 

[HoBo30]

Islam was established through military conquests.

You could easily say that Christianity was spread by military conquest as well (all of North America, South America, the Phillipnes [sp?]). The reasoning behind a lot of this is circular.

Another bone to pick:

Originally Posted by ReeferShepard1 View Post
Since I am no longer allowed access to the other thread, I have created a new one. I did get a chance however, to read some of the responses to my prior post, earier. Whoever was trying to get into a medical discussion with me, please, for your own sake, do not. You will look silly.

Let me reply to whoever thought ejaculation was not mandatory.
You don’t have to brush your teeth either. However, doing so greatly reduces the chance of cancer. What happens if you do not brush? You will accumulate a “buildup” of plaque. After a period of time, plaque forms cavities. Plaque also causes gingivitis. Gingivitis can make your mouth very sore, and makes eating meals very difficult (Not to mention the awful visible aspect). Let me describe this process as it relates to ejaculation.

The body does normally absorb unused sperm from the testicles, but it can only to do so much of it. Too much absorbtion can cause sterility. Which is why when many people reverse their vasectomies, they still remain infertile. This is because the immune system starts attacking the sperm. Again, unused seminal fluid in the prostate can be reabsorbed by the body or harmlessly backed up into the bladder…but again, too much can cause damage. Which is why frequent ejaculation can reduce the risk of getting prostate cancer. healthandage.com/professi…ncer-Risk.html

Or here. webmd.com/prostate-cancer…ation-Prostate Last but not least, the smooth muscles that cause ejaculation are similar to any other muscle in the body and could entropy if they go too long without use.

Now, to whoever asked me if I would consider female masturbation a sin, yes I would. Female masturbation cannot be accomplished without any means of lust (Reminds me of that horrid scene in ‘The Exorcist’). And since females do not produce sperm, there is essentially no “build up.” However, my point stands clear. Male mastubation can be done without lust, and not only does it provide a “flush” for the prostate, but it significantly reduces the risk of cancer.

What, and male masturbation can be done without lust?

Sorry, but your medical analysis has been trumped by the Church’s. This is a mortal sin regardless of whatever “benifits” it might have. I would far rather have a “back up” as you call it then go to Hell.

This is that all or nothing mentality I was talking about. Rather get cancer than jerk it a couple times and, as he believes, go to hell. I really have a problem w/ this.

 

[Michael_Howard]

You could easily say that Christianity was spread by military conquest as well (all of North America, South America, the Phillipnes [sp?]). The reasoning behind a lot of this is circular.

Another bone to pick:

This is that all or nothing mentality I was talking about. Rather get cancer than jerk it a couple times and, as he believes, go to hell. I really have a problem w/ this.

I symptahize with what you are going through, I think our whole Christian walk is about falling and getting back up. Jesus knows we will fall alot and what pleases his heart most is desire to be pure. I believe the Cathecism differntiates between deliberate hardened willful sin and sins of weakness that seem to have mastery over us. If anyone has that cathecism text please post it. I am not sure if this helps but I use to go to confession with alot more focus on my failings, now I go with the desire to please my Lord ( who resides in the confessional) out of love and desire for Him, it’s changed the way I view sin and confession.

 

[Church_Militant]

Try to keep it to one topic at a time in a thread and the answers will make better sense.

Do you know what the term scrupulous means?

Some people (Martin Luther was one of them) get so hung up on their fears of sins that they sort of flip out and make themselves a mental and spiritual mess.

As my pastor says all the time. “We’re all sinners, and the good news is that Jesus came to save sinners”.

If you ever reach a point in your life when you suffer no temptations (please bear in mind that temptation itself is not sin.) then please let me know how ya did it? Okay?

As for masturbation and cancer, I’ve heard all that, but I don’t buy it.

We are ALL called to chastity…but we are not all called to celibacy. Perhaps it’s time to begin searching for a good Catholic wife? Just a thought.

One has to make a commitment to get away from temptation in those areas where we know we are weak. If you fall…that’s what we have Confession for, and the great news there is that in that sacrament one can actually get some good counseling if you ask.

There’s no reason to wander around discouraged and guilt-ridden.

Philippians 2:13: for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

PM me if you want to talk…:coffeeread:

 

[HoBo30]

As for masturbation and cancer, I’ve heard all that, but I don’t buy it.

There’s a lot of impartial science behind that stuff…

We are ALL called to chastity…but we are not all called to celibacy. Perhaps it’s time to begin searching for a good Catholic wife? Just a thought.

 

[trogiah]

It seems the issue of condemnation is what puts you on the edge. “If you do such and such, you will go to hell.”

I think there is much confusion and misinformation about what leads to condemnation. Please consider the following.

Jesus speaks clearly about the road to condemnation, it is followed by those who practice condemnation. There is not (according to Jesus) a list of rules that you go to hell for breaking. Not even the Ten Commandments. Condemnation is incurred by those who practice condemnation. Forgiveness is earned by those who practice forgiveness.

Following the Ten Commandments and other laws help a person lead a full and successful life **in this lifetime. **and so they are worth following but following them so that you can avoid hell was not their original purpose.

Don’t know if that helps at all but it helps me keep faith in what is sometimes a very confusing world.

peace

Jim

 

[HoBo30]

It seems the issue of condemnation is what puts you on the edge. “If you do such and such, you will go to hell.”

I think there is much confusion and misinformation about what leads to condemnation. Please consider the following.

Jesus speaks clearly about the road to condemnation, it is followed by those who practice condemnation. There is not (according to Jesus) a list of rules that you go to hell for breaking. Not even the Ten Commandments. Condemnation is incurred by those who practice condemnation. Forgiveness is earned by those who practice forgiveness.

Following the Ten Commandments and other laws help a person lead a full and successful life **in this lifetime. **and so they are worth following but following them so that you can avoid hell was not their original purpose.

Don’t know if that helps at all but it helps me keep faith in what is sometimes a very confusing world.

peace

Jim

So (Edited by Moderator) as long as I practice forgiveness I will earn eternal life?

I’m not trying to be a smart-mouth, but I think you see what I’m saying…

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

So as long as I practice forgiveness I will earn eternal life?

I’m not trying to be a smart-mouth, but I think you see what I’m saying…

That’s the single most important thing you can do. If you believe in forgiveness then God can forgive you. If you don’t then you will create a very difficult situation at the end of time, both for yourself and for those not forgiven by you.

 

[puzzleannie]

Consider this a cry for help:

I converted a little over a year ago and I’m already at my wits end w/ religion in general. The entire “it’s this way or hell, there’s no middle ground” mentality wears thin very fast. As weak as people are, there is no way to escape sin, none what-so-ever, especially when sin is defined so broadly.
?

since this is a mistatement of Catholic doctrine I suggest that you take steps to further study to find out what the real doctrine is. your preparation to enter the Church only covered the basics you needed to receive the sacraments, now it is time to go deeper. For a start, back arrow to the CA homepage and read the article on salvation.

 

[Atemi]

Consider this a cry for help:

I converted a little over a year ago and I’m already at my wits end w/ religion in general. The entire “it’s this way or hell, there’s no middle ground” mentality wears thin very fast. As weak as people are, there is no way to escape sin, none what-so-ever, especially when sin is defined so broadly.

I’m not ready to say there is no God, that’s a very scary proposition and I don’t believe it to be true.

If I’m going to be a Christian, I’m going to be Catholic, to be Christian and anything but Catholic is illogical.

But that gets me to a bigger question: Even if there is a God (which I believe there is), what makes us so sure that we’ve got it right? I’m not looking for an answer based on Scripture or the Catechism, there are other religions that have holy texts that provide a basis for why they’ve got it right.

I can’t see through any of this and I’m about to give up. Any (valid) arguments why I shouldn’t?

Hello Hobo,

Let me tell you from experience that reason will never make you a Christian. You will reason, reason, reason…and then reason ways out of your own reason.

There is no greater proof for any person than actually meeting the Creator, Person to person, through humble repentance and spiritual rebirth (John 3:5). All the reason in the world cannot do for a person what having an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ will do.

And I say all this as a logical person that kicks and screams if I do not have reasons.

You are seeking reasons for religion, and that is good, but once you come to KNOW Him, simply believing He is there takes a faaaaaar back seat.

The only way to this point is a revelation of Himself to you. You cannot reason your way into KNOWING someone. You may reason your way into knowing some facts ABOUT someone, but that is not Christianity.

Unlike all the religions in the world, you can actually KNOW God and walk with Him. You can talk to Him and He will speak to you. You will share with Him, and wonderfully, He will share with you.

When this is a reality for you, there is no argument that can then convince you that He ain’t there. You cannot, however, arrive at this place from logic or reason alone.

I know exactly how you feel. Don’t walk away from Him.

He is not asking you to escape sin, He has already provided that for you. What He wants from you is to recognize it and hate it just as He does.

Seek His face.

Humbly ask Him, without a testing spirit, to reveal Himself to you.

He only seeks men who know who they are, who know who He is, and those that will give all to Him.

• Tell Him you will serve Him…and mean it.
• Tell Him you will obey Him…and mean it.
• Tell Him you are nothing without Him…and mean it.
• Tell Him you recognize your sin and need Him…and mean it.

Wait on Him. He will not let you down.

God bless you on your journey.

…

 

[Benedictus]

Let me tell you from experience that reason will never make you a Christian.

Well that’s encouraging.

 

[Benedictus]

I’m not ready to say there is no God, that’s a very scary proposition and I don’t believe it to be true.
…]
But that gets me to a bigger question: Even if there is a God (which I believe there is), what makes us so sure that we’ve got it right?

I was in the same spot not that long ago. Why Christianity? At some point it seems like I have to pick a religion based solely on “faith”. Why not Islam? They get 70 virgins when they die. That sounds pretty good to me. There are thousands, if not millions, of religions people have followed over the years. On what basis should I chose Christianity over another?

There are slightly bigger questions though. Why is God hiding? Why doesn’t he reveal himself more clearly? Why doesn’t he answer prayers? People pray for peace constantly, but the wars go on. Why should I pray for some small thing in my life when God doesn’t seem interested in stopping wars or helping the starving, sick kids in Africa? Some would say that God, if he exists, has a lot of explaining to do.

After years of reflection, study, and (yes) prayer, I came to the conclusion that a personal god like the one Christians worship most probably doesn’t exist. There’s simply insufficient evidence to support the claim that he does.

I know there’s a certain comfort and security derived from belief in God. I’d be lying if I said that I never missed that sense of security–that feeling that my inevitable death would hopefully bring rest and happiness.

I’m now best described as a Weak agnostic (i.e., the existence of God is unknown to me but perhaps is knowable) with occasional tendancies towards Apathetic agnosticism (even if God exists, he appears to be unconcerned with the world) and Ignosticism (the concept of God is meaningless since it has no effects on the world that can be verified).

If I’m going to be a Christian, I’m going to be Catholic, to be Christian and anything but Catholic is illogical.

I agree. If I were to start over from scratch and pick a Christian denomination, I’d probably end up Catholic again. At least the Catholics have tried to justify their religion rationally.

I can’t see through any of this and I’m about to give up. Any (valid) arguments why I shouldn’t?

I’ve asked questions like this around here before and only to be disappointed. I will say that I don’t think you should give up. I just wanted to share my experiences.

 

[RichP]

There are slightly bigger questions though. Why is God hiding?

Is God hiding from us or are we hiding from God? In Genesis 3:8-10 Adam and Eve hid themselves in the Garden of Eden after eating the fruit of the tree. God asked, “Where are you?” although God knew exactly where Adam and Eve were. Adam and Eve knew they disobeyed God and wanted to hide… He wanted Adam and Eve to admit to what they have done.

I remember as a little boy whenever I did something my parents didn’t approve of, I would run and hide somewhere because I was afraid of what they would say or do. I never thought of the consequences of my actions. I think some times we try to run and hide from God when we are ashamed of what we have done because we are afraid of the consequences.

Why doesn’t he reveal himself more clearly?

Public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. However, he continues reveals himself in the beauty and splendor of His creation. He reveals himself in the actions and faith of holy people. One role model is Mother Teresa of Calcutta. How could she have done what she did without her incredible faith and God’s help?

Why doesn’t he answer prayers?

Who says he doesn’t answer prayers? Maybe he answers them but people are too busy to hear his answer… Maybe some people ignore his answer if they don’t like the answer they receive… and then say their praryers aren’t answered…

People pray for peace constantly, but the wars go on.

We will not have peace in this world until people are at peace with themselves. Until there is peace inside of us, there will not be peace outside of us… We need to pray first for peace for ourselves, and then for our neighbor…

Why should I pray for some small thing in my life when God doesn’t seem interested in stopping wars or helping the starving, sick kids in Africa?

Is God not interested because he doesn’t come out of the sky in a flaming chariot stopping all the wars and feeding all the starving people? God has given us the tools and the intelligence to stop all wars and to feed everyone. Do we use the tools God has given us properly? Christian Scientists believe in divine healing of physical problems. Other Christians believe that God gave us Doctors to fix our physical problems…

Also, there is a lot more to prayer than asking God for things, both big and small… You can send God a prayer to thank him for today, for the breath you just took, your life… there are so many things to thank God for.

Some would say that God, if he exists, has a lot of explaining to do.

Taken out of context… some would say that God, if he exists, we will have a LOT of explaining to do… (on Judgement Day)

After years of reflection, study, and (yes) prayer, I came to the conclusion that a personal god like the one Christians worship most probably doesn’t exist. There’s simply insufficient evidence to support the claim that he does.

What evidence are you exactly looking for? There are many proofs that God exists if you are interested… And as far as Jesus goes, he WAS a historical figure. There is considerable non-biblical evidence that he existed. You should ask yourself if Jesus was truly the Son of God as he said he was, or was he a madman, a fool, or a revolutinary whose overthrow of Romans and the Jewish King was derailed by his crucifixon?

I know there’s a certain comfort and security derived from belief in God. I’d be lying if I said that I never missed that sense of security–that feeling that my inevitable death would hopefully bring rest and happiness.

Why are we here? What does it mean to be a man? a woman? These are questions that everyone has deep down inside. People are seeking the answers in so very many different ways. We are all on a spiritual journey on different paths.

If I were to start over from scratch and pick a Christian denomination, I’d probably end up Catholic again. At least the Catholics have tried to justify their religion rationally.

I contend that being a Catholic is more than just being a member of a religion. It is a way of life. May God bless us on our journey!

 

[Benedictus]

Is God hiding from us or are we hiding from God?

That’s worth considering, but not very convincing. If God exists, we have no unmistakeable evidence of his existence.

We will not have peace in this world until people are at peace with themselves. Until there is peace inside of us, there will not be peace outside of us…

I completely agree.

What evidence are you exactly looking for? There are many proofs that God exists if you are interested… And as far as Jesus goes, he WAS a historical figure. There is considerable non-biblical evidence that he existed.

No, actually there isn’t. I was surprised by how little extra-biblical evidence there is when I started looking into the matter. The only first century evidence of Jesus’ existence is Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews where he refers to James the brother of Jesus in one place. There is also the infamous Testomium Flavianum elsewhere in the same work, which is probably a forgery but, at best, in the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia, “suffer from repeated interpolations.”

I’m not saying Jesus didn’t exist. He probably did, but there is little historical evidence that he did. There is no historical evidence that any of the miracles he allegedly performed actually happened, nor do we have any guarantee that his teachings have been accurately recorded. The first books of the New Testament weren’t written until at least three decades after he died.

History is really an argument against Christianity. One wonders why many events in the Gospels aren’t found elsewhere in recorded history. For example, at the Resurrection, many dead people came back to life and appeared to people in Jerusalem (Matt 27:52-53). Why isn’t this recorded elsewhere in history? A bunch of people coming back to life seems like big news worth recording.

Matthew’s gospel records the massacre of the infants (2:16) by Herod. There is not a single reference to this massacre elsewhere in recorded history. Josephus wrote 40 chapters about Herod and was definitely no fan, recalling his various crimes and misdeads, but he says nothing about this massacre.

Luke’s gospel says that Jesus was born when Quirinius was governor of Syria (cf. Luke 2:2). Both Matthew and Luke say Jesus was born during the time of Herod the great. The problem is that Herod died about 10 years before Quirinius was governor of Syria.

These are just three of the many historical problems in the gospels.

As for proofs of God’s existence, I have yet to see one that is valid or convincing. I’m familiar with Aquinas’ Five Ways, Anselm’s a priori “proof”, Pascal’s wager, etc. They all have flaws, some more serious than others. If there is a proof of God’s existence (and there may be one), I have yet to see it. Even still, it’s a long ways from a proof of an unmoved mover to the God of Christianity.

So what am I looking for? Evidence. Something that can only be explained by God’s intervention or existence.

 

[trogiah]

So (Edited by Moderator) as long as I practice forgiveness I will earn eternal life?

I’m not trying to be a smart-mouth, but I think you see what I’m saying…

I think I missed something… but to answer your question, by practicing forgiveness you can avoid eternal condemnation, (or so the parables and teachings of Jesus seem to indicate) which perhaps isn’t quite the same thing as earning eternal life.

Jim