On the Fewness of the Saved

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mikekle said:
True, but Gods wrath and justice is mentioned quite a bit as well, imo, preaching hell and damnation is better for helping people avoid major sin.
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Yeah because yelling and threatening works so well with who? 😦
 
pianistclare said:
ww.catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means
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Yes, your article has explained what I meant when I said there is no salvation outside of the Church. Only if someone is invincibly ignorant, and then if they have no mortal sin and are baptized, can they hope of reaching Heaven. This is extremely difficult and is mostly seen in infants. As Catholics, we know personally how difficult it is to get to Heaven even within the Church, so it must be a lot more difficult to achieve Heaven from outside the Church.
 
Sirach2 said:
You might want to explore the scriptures that speak repeatedly about God’s mercy.

http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=0&q=mercy&b=drb = 434 times
http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=0&q=hope&b=drb = 183 times
http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=0&q=trust+in+God&b=drb = 120 times
http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=0&q=despair&b=drb = 4 times :eek:

Thank God Pope Francis is not preaching hell and damnation to all of us. What a pathetic way that would be to evangelize. Your speculation may be true, but that is NOT the essence of the gospel, which means “good news.”
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Our Lord certainly is a God of love & mercy. After all, He took flesh by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary and died for us on the Cross. Nevertheless, man is still a sinful race that is prone to rejection of Our Lord’s mercy due to concupiscence. The Bible, while being replete with Our Lord’s mercy, is also replete with Our Lord’s judgments since He is both infinitely just and infinitely merciful.

The fault to be found for few being saved is not in God, but in man. By saying that few are saved, it only serves to show the sinful tendencies of man and doesn’t call into question the infinite mercy of God since it is by man’s free will alone that he chooses to damn himself.
 
Confiteor_Deo said:
Yes, your article has explained what I meant when I said there is no salvation outside of the Church. Only if someone is invincibly ignorant, and then if they have no mortal sin and are baptized, can they hope of reaching Heaven. This is extremely difficult and is mostly seen in infants. As Catholics, we know personally how difficult it is to get to Heaven even within the Church, so it must be a lot more difficult to achieve Heaven from outside the Church.
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My point it, the Church does not teach that one must be Catholic to go to heaven.
I don’t know why anyone would want the world to think that going to heaven is a near impossible feat. 🤷
Of course we should not willingly turn against God or anger Him.
A holy fear of the Lord is good.
But preaching that “few” are saved is really doing God’s work for Him. That’s a big no-no.
It’s His decision alone.
May God have mercy on all of us. We are to encourage, lift up, and lead people to repentance, not fill them full of “what’s the use? Why bother?”
 
pianistclare said:
My point it, the Church does not teach that one must be Catholic to go to heaven.
I don’t know why anyone would want the world to think that going to heaven is a near impossible feat. 🤷
Of course we should not willingly turn against God or anger Him.
A holy fear of the Lord is good.
But preaching that “few” are saved is really doing God’s work for Him. That’s a big no-no.
It’s His decision alone.
May God have mercy on all of us. We are to encourage, lift up, and lead people to repentance, not fill them full of “what’s the use? Why bother?”
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I would think that saying few are saved should motivate Catholics to pray for sinners and evangelize them. If we make it seem like few are damned, then I would think this would make Catholics not see the point of praying for sinners, not the other way around.

It is a big claim to say that it is wrong to preach that few are saved considering the long list of quotes from saints, even Popes and Doctors, that are saying it.
 
Confiteor_Deo said:
I would think that saying few are saved should motivate Catholics to pray for sinners and evangelize them. If we make it seem like few are damned, then I would think this would make Catholics not see the point of praying for sinners, not the other way around.

It is a big claim to say that it is wrong to preach that few are saved considering the long list of quotes from saints, even Popes and Doctors, that are saying it.
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Well, you go ahead. I’ll not discourage anyone to strive for holiness. Of course we pray fro sinners. Why would you say that I don’t think we should?
Despite what various past Popes have said, there has to be many people on heaven. The bad folks get all the press. There are many who are good people who love God with all their hearts. You have to admit, that in the past, it was common to frighten people into behaviors. That doesn’t necessarily allow for hope, or mercy, or kindness.
Jesus was kind of big on all that. :rolleyes:
I’m out.
 
pianistclare said:
Well, you go ahead. I’ll not discourage anyone to strive for holiness. Of course we pray fro sinners. Why would you say that I don’t think we should?
Despite what various past Popes have said, there has to be many people on heaven. The bad folks get all the press. There are many who are good people who love God with all their hearts. You have to admit, that in the past, it was common to frighten people into behaviors. That doesn’t necessarily allow for hope, or mercy, or kindness.
Jesus was kind of big on all that. :rolleyes:
I’m out.
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I didn’t say that you don’t think we should pray for sinners, I was simply trying to point out that saying few are damned might lead people to not see the need to pray for sinners.

While there are few that are saved, that number is nevertheless a lot of people. After all, I think the Church has canonized 10,000 saints so far and that is just the canonized ones. However, while there might be even billions of people in Heaven, there have been approximately 107 billion people in history.
 
One thing for sure, the OP’s original post will surface again on CAF in a similar fashion by another poster within the next three months or sooner. That for sure, you can take to the bank or better yet, you can take to hell or heaven depending on your belief.

On the latter, I personally put my trust in the Lord who will make the FINAL decision.

God Bless and Peace to all.
 
Thank you, Sirach, for posting those beautiful quotes. My favourite of them all is the anecdote from the life of St. Therese; I haven’t read that in a while!

Abbe F.X. Godts has compiled a fairly long list of reasons why it seems more probable that the majority will be damned. I tend to agree; however, I don’t think St. Leonard’s sermon is a good indication of how many will be saved, nor do I think that God sets a limit to how many He will save.

In all discussions of the number of the elect, it is absolutely essential that we emphasise God’s antecedent will, which desires to save all. If we adopt the means (the Mass, the Rosary, indulgences, prayer, penance etc.), many, many souls can be saved who otherwise might be damned! Yes, we must make known God’s justice; but we must remember that it is in perfect harmony with His mercy, which is over all of His works! The number of the Elect is only fixed from God’s perspective, so to speak. Fatalism and despair are pure nonsense!

St. Faustina, pray for us!
Sr. Josefa Menendez, pray for us!
Sr. Benigna Consolata, pray for us!

The Eternal Father to St. Hildegard, Doctor of the Church:
“Does anyone think it possible to see into the deep wisdom of the Most High and into the discernment of His knowledge, and count the number of those who are to be saved? His judgements are incomprehensible to all people. Your task is to run; for the kingdom of God is prepared for you.”
 
Have you noticed something about Jesus?

He rebuked people when they did wrong.
Peter for caring only about the flesh.
Scribes & Pharisees for faking it
Sadducees for their false doctrine.

But look at this interesting one:

Matthew 11:12-14 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.

This was not the season for figs, so no wonder the fig tree didn’t have figs.

But Jesus cursed it because he was angry at it for doing what it was supposed to do!

So even if you are doing what you are supposed to, you’re condemned. What a horrible message. .
 
BobCatholic said:
Have you noticed something about Jesus?

He rebuked people when they did wrong.
Peter for caring only about the flesh.
Scribes & Pharisees for faking it
Sadducees for their false doctrine.

But look at this interesting one:

Matthew 11:12-14 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.

This was not the season for figs, so no wonder the fig tree didn’t have figs.

But Jesus cursed it because he was angry at it for doing what it was supposed to do!

So even if you are doing what you are supposed to, you’re condemned. What a horrible message. .
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I don’t see that as the message there… You are saying that Jesus’ only possible motivation was because He was angry for it not having figs… are you so sure that was His intent?

I could think of many reasons for why Jesus cursed the fig tree. Have you looked at any commentaries on that verse?

Here’s a thought… We are to preach the Word in season and out of season (vis a vis St. Paul) and not be like the fig tree that only produces fruit at its natural time. When the Son of Man comes will He find faith on earth? Or will we not be in the right season for it?

I think that fig tree teaches us an important lesson: do the Will of God and not what merely is/feels natural to you. We are not saved by acting according to our nature but by the super-natural means of God’s grace and saying yes to His invitation to faith and holiness.
 
Bob Catholic:
Matthew 11:12-14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.

This was not the season for figs, so no wonder the fig tree didn’t have figs.

But Jesus cursed it because he was angry at it for doing what it was supposed to do!

So even if you are doing what you are supposed to, you’re condemned. What a horrible message…
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This is the danger of private interpretation of scripture, not knowing its true meaning, and teaching one’s error to others.

Yes, it was the time of Passover, not the time for fruit. What should be evident? In spring, when the blossom falls just prior to leafing out, the tree will have a tiny node in the place of the blossom, which grows into full fruit later on. The tree did not even have evidence of the node … just leaves … meaning no future fruit was possible.

As Jesus was entering the temple to curse it and render judgment upon it for its lack of fruit (repentance), He performs this parable before His disciples to illustrate symbolically what He will do with regard to Israel’s infidelity. He is acting out the prophecy of Jeremia 8:13-14,
“I will gather them all in says the Lord: no grapes on the vine, no figs on the fig trees, foliage withered! Let us enter the walled cities to perish there, for the Lord has wrought our destruction.” He is acting out the destruction that will take place in Jerusalem.
 
The fig tree represented the chosen people who failed to produce the goodness that God wanted of them. It was a direct insinuation about the Pharisees and the other leaders not becoming a holy nation and accepting their messiah.
 
Ricky_C said:
So does this mean that the way most Catholics live is going to lead them to the wrong place? If the gate is narrow, then does this mean we have to give up our entire lives to God to make it to Heaven? I’m worried about this right now, and worrying about it on my own isn’t getting me anywhere; are we not doing enough?

I know I’m looking at this really pessimistically; what’s the bright side?
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It means that out of the billions of dead and alive souls who have been given the opportunity to choose between heaven and hell, a relative few are going to heaven because most people refuse to commit their life to Christ. People don’t want to abandon the pleasures of lying, killing, stealing, cheating on their spouse, meanness, cruelty and unforgiveness towards others, selfishness, greed, pride… . After we die all these earthly man made pleasures will be worthless to us. To choose God’s gift of eternal life we must live by his laws. We all must be our own biggest critic for our own good. Be honest about yourself. Giving up your life to God seems like an unbearable sacrifice to most people. But it is not that way, it is the opposite of unbearable. It is very rewarding before and after we die. A person can be a saint without becoming a monk or a priest.
 
fred_conty said:
The fig tree represented the chosen people who failed to produce the goodness that God wanted of them. It was a direct insinuation about the Pharisees and the other leaders not becoming a holy nation and accepting their messiah.
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This makes sense, so can I get a source for this from scripture and/or tradition?
 
+JMJ+

We are not saints who cry over our sins; we take delight in them because they serve to glorify the mercy of God.

— St. Therese of Lisieux (source)
 
+JMJ+
BobCatholic said:
Have you noticed something about Jesus?

He rebuked people when they did wrong.
Peter for caring only about the flesh.
Scribes & Pharisees for faking it
Sadducees for their false doctrine.

But look at this interesting one:

Matthew 11:12-14 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.

This was not the season for figs, so no wonder the fig tree didn’t have figs.

But Jesus cursed it because he was angry at it for doing what it was supposed to do!

So even if you are doing what you are supposed to, you’re condemned. What a horrible message. .
Click to expand...
First of all, it’s Mark 11:12-14 and 11:20–25 or Matthew 21:18–22.

Second, fig trees are weird.

Fig trees in leaf produce immature but edible fruit locally called taksh which usually fall on the ground, especially with strong winds (see Revelation 6:13 – "
And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, as the fig tree casteth its green figs when it is shaken by a great wind…"). The presence of taksh moreover shows that the fig tree will produce fruit when fig season comes.

Even if it was out of season, the fig tree should have taksh already, since Jesus saw that it was “in leaf”. A fig tree to have nothing but leaves out of season means that it will not be fruitful in season.
 
nuntym said:
+JMJ+

First of all, it’s Mark 11:12-14 and 11:20–25 or Matthew 21:18–22.

Second, fig trees are weird.

Fig trees in leaf produce immature but edible fruit locally called taksh which usually fall on the ground, especially with strong winds (see Revelation 6:13 – "
And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, as the fig tree casteth its green figs when it is shaken by a great wind…"). The presence of taksh moreover shows that the fig tree will produce fruit when fig season comes.

Even if it was out of season, the fig tree should have taksh already, since Jesus saw that it was “in leaf”. A fig tree to have nothing but leaves out of season means that it will not be fruitful in season.
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Thank you! This helps resolve that misunderstanding nicely. My lack of knowledge of fig trees was a handicap in understanding this.
 
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