On the garden and the Tree

[Seeker2010]

OK, the Christian bible gives us a pretty outlandish explanation for how we all got here, a story, frankly, that I find so outlandish as to lack any credibility whatsoever, but since I’m a masochist, I figured I would pull the pin off of a hand grenade and toss it in the philosophy forum.

So, here are my questions:
A: Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, or allegorical?

• A1: If literal, how do you explain the discrepancy between the biblical timeline of 6000 years since the very first humans, and the science that tells us beyond a doubt that humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.
• A2: If allegorical, does that not leave a significant problem with the idea of original sin?

Finally, the biggie. I was actually accused of ‘judging God’ on another forum for posing this question.

If Adam, Eve, the Tree, and the serpent actually were real persons, and real events, was not God leaving the tree, the ONE thing that they were not to touch, right there, unguarded, unsupervised, with just an admonition to leave it alone analogous to a day care leaving a loaded pistol in the toy box, and merely telling the children they can play with all the other toys but to leave the gun alone? Isn’t such a thing highly irresponsible?

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

If you’re looking for a literal interpretation of Genesis you’ll have much better luck in a Christian Fundie Forum site, most Catholics tend to look at all of Genesis as divinely inspired myth, conveying spiritual truths, not historic truths. Even Saint Augustine back in the 4th century warned of assuming Genesis is a literal discripition in his De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim or “The Literal Meaning of Genesis”.

 

[mark_a]

OK, the Christian bible gives us a pretty outlandish explanation for how we all got here, a story, frankly, that I find so outlandish as to lack any credibility whatsoever, but since I’m a masochist, I figured I would pull the pin off of a hand grenade and toss it in the philosophy forum.

So, here are my questions:

A: Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, or allegorical?

• A1: If literal, how do you explain the discrepancy between the biblical timeline of 6000 years since the very first humans, and the science that tells us beyond a doubt that humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.
• A2: If allegorical, does that not leave a significant problem with the idea of original sin?

Finally, the biggie. I was actually accused of ‘judging God’ on another forum for posing this question.

If Adam, Eve, the Tree, and the serpent actually were real persons, and real events, was not God leaving the tree, the ONE thing that they were not to touch, right there, unguarded, unsupervised, with just an admonition to leave it alone analogous to a day care leaving a loaded pistol in the toy box, and merely telling the children they can play with all the other toys but to leave the gun alone? Isn’t such a thing highly irresponsible?

I used to feel the same way, but at this point in my life, I find it the richest part of the old testament.

I’m just curious, how would you write the story about man’s origin and his inherent selfishness?

 

[Seeker2010]

Ronnie, if that’s what you think then perhaps you can answer the question as it relates to original sin.

Mark, before you ask questions, perhaps you could answer the ones I posed first.

 

[davidv]

OK, the Christian bible gives us a pretty outlandish explanation for how we all got here, a story, frankly, that I find so outlandish as to lack any credibility whatsoever, but since I’m a masochist, I figured I would pull the pin off of a hand grenade and toss it in the philosophy forum.

So, here are my questions:

A: Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, or allegorical?

• A1: If literal, how do you explain the discrepancy between the biblical timeline of 6000 years since the very first humans, and the science that tells us beyond a doubt that humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.
• A2: If allegorical, does that not leave a significant problem with the idea of original sin?

Finally, the biggie. I was actually accused of ‘judging God’ on another forum for posing this question.

Genesis must be interpreted literally
CCC 116:

The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.”

and spiritually.
CCC 117:

The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.

If Adam, Eve, the Tree, and the serpent actually were real persons, and real events, was not God leaving the tree, the ONE thing that they were not to touch, right there, unguarded, unsupervised, with just an admonition to leave it alone analogous to a day care leaving a loaded pistol in the toy box, and merely telling the children they can play with all the other toys but to leave the gun alone? Isn’t such a thing highly irresponsible?

Why must someone be on guard for us to do what is right? A good working definition of integrety that I heard is, doing what is right even when no one is looking. We are called to self mastery, to be all that we are meant to be. Disobedience is opposite.

 

[Seeker2010]

Genesis must be interpreted literally and spiritually.

OK.

Then how do you explain the discrepancy between the bibles timeline (that the first humans were created ~6,000 years ago) that the scientific fact that we’ve actually been here for hundreds of thousands of years?

And how do you explain that genesis says the earth was created before the sun and stars, and yet we know that is not accurate?

 

[davidv]

OK.

Then how do you explain the discrepancy between the bibles timeline (that the first humans were created ~6,000 years ago) that the scientific fact that we’ve actually been here for hundreds of thousands of years?

I don’t explain it. I don’t believe that time line should be interpreted literally.

And how do you explain that genesis says the earth was created before the sun and stars, and yet we know that is not accurate?

I don’t explain it. I believe Genesis is not a chronological history.

 

[Seeker2010]

I don’t explain it. I don’t believe that time line should be interpreted literally.

Two posts ago, you insisted it must be interpreted literally, now you’re saying not. Which is it?

 

[davidv]

Two posts ago, you insisted it must be interpreted literally, now you’re saying not. Which is it?

Both. Literal in the sense of the author intended, not as you and I might read with 21st century biases.

 

[Seeker2010]

Both. Literal in the sense of the author intended, not as you and I might read with 21st century biases.

That’s ****.

It’s either literal, allegorical, or complete fiction.

If you believe it’s literal, then you need to explain how it is that it conflicts from our scientific knowledge without being rendered a lie.

If it’s allegorical, you need to explain how the concept of ‘Original Sin’ applies, and why JC was required to be dispatched to deal with that problem You may also wish to deal with the issue of why JC himself found it to be literal fact.

If it’s complete fiction (as I believe), you need to explain why you follow a church founded on fiction.

 

[Seeker2010]

That’s ****.

Wow. The word C R A P is censored here. A bit sensitive, huh?

 

[davidv]

That’s ****.

It’s either literal, allegorical, or complete fiction.

Why can’t it be a mixture of these?

If you believe it’s literal, then you need to explain how it is that it conflicts from our scientific knowledge without being rendered a lie.

Why? If the original author didn’t intend it to be a scientific journal article then there is no conflict with scientific knowledge. It is only a lie if you artifically impose your interpretation on it.

If it’s allegorical, you need to explain how the concept of ‘Original Sin’ applies, and why JC was required to be dispatched to deal with that problem You may also wish to deal with the issue of why JC himself found it to be literal fact.

If it’s complete fiction (as I believe), you need to explain why you follow a church founded on fiction.

Strawmen are self-defeating.

 

[Seeker2010]

Strawmen are self-defeating.

It’s not strawmen.

Your religion maintains that the original sin of Adam is why we are subject to the seemingly contrary rules of your God. Believe, or perish. Don’t masturbate, or perish. Believe that JC was the ‘Son of God’ (whatever that really means), and that only through him will one get into heaven, or perish.

While I believe that we are more than just chemical reactions, that our consciousness survives death, I do not buy what you guys are selling, and frankly, you’re doing a horrible job convincing me.

The very foundation of Christianity is that Adam and Eve committed the ‘original sin’, as a result of that we are all doomed to be sinners, and that JC came down to save us from that fate.

But if Adam and Eve did not literally exist, they they obviously could not have committed the original sin. Why? Well, because they didn’t exist, and thus committed no sins whatsoever. So if they didn’t literally exist, and thus did not commit the original sin, then who did? And what was their transgression? And what agreement did they violate?

Your faith requires belief in something that is known to be false… that humanity descended from a single couple 6,000 years ago. There is no room for debate about that, it it absolutely wrong. Yet, without it, the entire faith falls apart.

 

[davidv]

It’s not strawmen.

Your religion maintains that the original sin of Adam is why we are subject to the seemingly contrary rules of your God. Believe, or perish. Don’t masturbate, or perish. Believe that JC was the ‘Son of God’ (whatever that really means), and that only through him will one get into heaven, or perish.

While I believe that we are more than just chemical reactions, that our consciousness survives death, I do not buy what you guys are selling, and frankly, you’re doing a horrible job convincing me.

The very foundation of Christianity is that Adam and Eve committed the ‘original sin’, as a result of that we are all doomed to be sinners, and that JC came down to save us from that fate.

But if Adam and Eve did not literally exist, they they obviously could not have committed the original sin. Why? Well, because they didn’t exist, and thus committed no sins whatsoever. So if they didn’t literally exist, and thus did not commit the original sin, then who did? And what was their transgression? And what agreement did they violate?

Your faith requires belief in something that is known to be false… that humanity descended from a single couple 6,000 years ago. There is no room for debate about that, it it absolutely wrong. Yet, without it, the entire faith falls apart.

When you portray Christianity incorrectly, as you did again in this post, this is a strawman. If we were selling what you think we are selling I wouldn’t buy it either.

The foundation of Christianity is not the sin of Adam and Eve, it is the person of Jesus, the Christ, Son of the living God.

I am not required to believe anything that is known to be false. That you think some of it is false is not relevant unless you can prove it.

 

[fhansen]

If Adam, Eve, the Tree, and the serpent actually were real persons, and real events, was not God leaving the tree, the ONE thing that they were not to touch, right there, unguarded, unsupervised, with just an admonition to leave it alone analogous to a day care leaving a loaded pistol in the toy box, and merely telling the children they can play with all the other toys but to leave the gun alone? Isn’t such a thing highly irresponsible?

From the Catechism:
**390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom. **

The language is* figurative*, but speaking of an actual act of rebellion or rejection of God and His authority by our first parents. The tree depicts our freedom-a gift, actually-to decide whether or not* we* will have absolute control over determining right and wrong for ourselves or whether a higher authority has the right to do so. Whether man’s righteousness will be self-led/determined or God-led/determined. And the man-centered righteousness, the self-righteousness, that leads the world now is, when used negatively or selfishly, responsible for all mortal evil. In the end self-righteousness is evil-it’s the original sin or self-separation from God.

 

[GratefulFred]

For me, a life long Catholic, but without a degree in theology, I do not take the ENTIRE story of Adam and Eve litterally.

God’s ways are so far above man’s ways that we will not begin to reasonably understand Him until we are in Heaven.

God has chosen to reveal Himself to us. He gets to choose HOW He reveals HImself and HOW He wants us to understand Him. He has His reasons for presenting creation in the Genesis stories. It is up to us to get the message.

Unless you become like little children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Children believe their parents because there is a bond of LOVE. We believe God because we LOVE God who has revealed Himself to us in the Bible.

I do believe that God created the entire universe - perhaps a billion galaxies according to current science. As far as we can see and hear, we are the only life and certainly the only intelligent life. The odds of the necessary mix of elements being exactly what is needed for our world to exist is hugely astronomical. We are not an accident of science. There is a creator - God who made us out of Love.

To me, original sin is the sin of selfishness which is the opposite of Love. When life is all about “ME” and not about Love, then we have the world history and current struggles. If all 6 billion of us realized that LOVE matters most and treated each other with proper LOVE, would we have war and poverty? Would you want to live in a world without Christainity and it’s 2,000 year effort to promote love of neighbor?

The Bible is how HE choose to have us understand Him. 6,000 years is the “idea” of a long time.

If Christainity is false, how do you explain it’s relative success in the world. Great intellectual minds have explained the tennets quite well. It is a fool who would dismiss the entire lot of them.

Please do not get hung up on the litteral or allegorical argument. See the larger message briefly outlined above. If you are serious about really wanting to know, then get to a good Catholic bookstore and ask of the better books on the matter.

For most of us here, it is a matter of FAITH which is a gift from God and can be had for the sincere asking for it. You are spiritual, which is good. Next step is to pray for an increase in Faith and Wisdom. TRUST God.

 

[mark_a]

Mark, before you ask questions, perhaps you could answer the ones I posed first.

OK
*

A: Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, or allegorical?

• A1: If literal, how do you explain the discrepancy between the biblical timeline of 6000 years since the very first humans, and the science that tells us beyond a doubt that humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.
• A2: If allegorical, does that not leave a significant problem with the idea of original sin? *I don’t put a lot of thought into these types of questions. Could you explain the significant problem?

If Adam, Eve, the Tree, and the serpent actually were real persons, and real events, was not God leaving the tree, the ONE thing that they were not to touch, right there, unguarded, unsupervised, with just an admonition to leave it alone analogous to a day care leaving a loaded pistol in the toy box, and merely telling the children they can play with all the other toys but to leave the gun alone?

No.

Isn’t such a thing highly irresponsible?

I have no answer because the above comparison does not work for me.

 

[mark_a]

bump

 

[JM3]

OK.

And how do you explain that genesis says the earth was created before the sun and stars, and yet we know that is not accurate?

The imprecise nature of the english language leads to many misunderstandings on ancient texts. The use of the word ‘earth’ in the first and second verse of chapter 1 in Genesis is not referring to the planet we currently inhabit. This is made clear in verse 10, where the Earth is created.

 

[grannymh]

If you’re looking for a literal interpretation of Genesis you’ll have much better luck in a Christian Fundie Forum site, most Catholics tend to look at all of Genesis as divinely inspired myth, conveying spiritual truths, not historic truths. Even Saint Augustine back in the 4th century warned of assuming Genesis is a literal discripition in his De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim or “The Literal Meaning of Genesis”.

Please tell me what spiritual truths you are talking about. Thank you.