On The Gospel of John 12:24

[Wm777]

NOTE: I used the Biblical citation because this is a question about death, and I didn’t want to put “Death” in the headline in case it might offend anyone who might be grieving. It’s not a bad question, though. Placing the question in scriptural apologetics seemed the best place for it; I hope this makes sense. The question is hard to explain.

“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.” - John 12:24

For various reasons, I’ve been working on understanding the quote above for quite some time, but the other night something dawned on me with respect to it…

The passage prefaces Christ’s passion by way of allegory with respect to a seed, but there is a problem with the word “dies”, especially according to the Catholic understanding of death.

In the passage, Christ is saying He will - like the seed - return under a better form.

That’s fine for Jesus, but let’s look at the average seed and the average human. Take, for example, the Parable of the Sower, where not all seeds survive to assume a better form

It’s only a parable, so we know from Christ’s teachings, it’s Theologically not the full story. But here I feel a little more like the people who see but not understand, so I’m asking from the standpoint of someone who really doesn’t get it.

The death of Christ was intended to redeem us from our sins; and - just as Christ died and was resurrected - so too will we be raised on the last day. This thing we call life is like the rind of the seed; and, when we have shuffled off this mortal coil, we will be in our glorified body. There seems to be a very penitential side to the conversion process. We set the old man behind and look forward to the new.

But here’s the problem.

All that penitential “flux” is great while we are still here on earth with time to run to the confessional. Yet at some point, death becomes permanent, even in the Catholic understanding. And this is a problem many Saints have expressed serious concerns over. I think the point is called “Judgment Day”, which awaits all of us at some point.

But why is it in our earthly life we have this “flux” (for lack of a better term); while in Heaven or Hell the “state of existence” is permanent - although not necessarily so for Purgatory, which occurs after death but before we actually get to heaven?

In its conversion the seed is still alive - its just changing (in flux) - until it becomes a flower in its new life. Then it pollinates, or “dies”, to create a new generation of life, and so on. But, again, referring to the Parable of the Sower, there are seeds that just don’t survive - so, like, when is it “really over”?

According to the way it is said to work in John 12:24 - Life seems to just continue by assuming some new shape or form, but then there is also said to be a point at which it doesn’t. So which is which? and how do we know each?

Again, I hope this makes sense. It’s hard to explain the question, and I apologize for the long post.

 

[thistle]

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 24. Unless the grain of wheat. The comparison is this, that as the seed must be changed, and corrupted in the ground, before it fructify, so the world would not be converted but by Christ’s death. (Witham) — By this grain of corn our Saviour means himself, who was to die by the infidelity of the Jews, and be multiplied by the faith of the Gentiles. (St. Augustine, tract. 51. in Joan.)

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Take, for example, the Parable of the Sower, where not all seeds survive to assume a better form

The parable of the sower is about how hearing the word of God produces fruit in some people and not in others. I don’t think it’s about the resurrection of the dead.

The verse from John may have the same idea of producing fruit, but the fruit would only come after the crucifixion/resurrection. So it’s probably referring to a bodily death whereas the parable of the sower is referring to the word of God dying in someone’s heart.

In John, Jesus is talking to people who are referred to by the gospel writer as Greeks. Jesus would probably have spoken to them in a different way, a more ‘natural’ or ‘physical’ way than he would have told parables to his Jewish disciples.

So I think there are two different meanings in the two different passages.

 

[Hodos]

That’s fine for Jesus, but let’s look at the average seed and the average human. Take, for example, the Parable of the Sower, where not all seeds survive to assume a better form

You cannot assume that just because Jesus uses the image of a seed in one parable, metaphor, or allegory in one sense, that this same use applies in all cases where the image of a seed is used. You have to read the context specific to that instance. Sometimes the seed refers to a person, other times (more frequently in fact) it refers to the message of the gospel.

Also, when using a parable, metaphor, or allegory, Jesus is usually trying to connect with one major point, giving you a familiar image to illustrate the point. All parables, metaphors, and allegories break down when pushed beyond the intended message that Christ was trying to convey to the listener. Here Jesus is not speaking of the nature of the body in resurrection. He is illustrating the point that when we deny ourselves in favor of Christ will bear much fruit for the kingdom of God. This is what makes a faithful servant. You can see that this is Jesus point in verses 25-26. Try not to over-philosophize what Christ is saying, or push the parable beyond the boundaries that Christ intended. Remember, Christ is usually trying to make a relatively simple point in his conversations.

 

[EndTimes]

“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.” - John 12:24

A grain of wheat - ceases to be just a seed
all things equal such as soil, rainfall and sunshine,

• it metamorphosis into a mature wheat plant which in turn produces many grains of wheat!

We see an expansion on this in 1 Corinthians… Longish read but well worth it…

The Resurrection Body

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed—perhaps of wheat or something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as he planned, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same: People have one flesh, animals have another, birds and fish another. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the earthly another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory.

42 It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.

50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen,

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
“Where, O death, is your victory?
"Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! 58 So then, dear brothers and sisters, be firm. Do not be moved! Always be outstanding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Elf01]

That’s fine for Jesus, but let’s look at the average seed and the average human. Take, for example, the Parable of the Sower, where not all seeds survive to assume a better form

Without being sowen they would have remained seeds. Bearing fruit may not be guarenteed, but death is a prerequisite.

Christs death makes salvation a possibility, not a certainty.