On the Greeks and their gods

  • Thread starter Thread starter coolduude
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

coolduude

Guest
Hi all,

I’ve always grappled with the concept of Greek polytheism. Is it possible their gods exist in real life and are not merely myths?

I know there is a thread entitled “Polytheism illogical?” where an issue similar to this is addressed. However, my question is not “can 2 entities both be I AM?” rather, my question is “does Zeus and the other gods exist?”

Thoughts?

Coolduude
 
Well… It’s possible that some form of “God” to exist in a Greek sense; but it would be misleading to use the word God; as they simply are not “I AM”; as they exist through Production, for example Zeus is the son of Cronus.

It is plausible that something such as Zeus could exist; but only exist if it were created (in the same way an Angel may exist); but there cannot be more than **ONE **individual who is the creator of the Universe; nor can there be more than ONE omnipotent being.

Further; it is also essential that there is ONE omnipotent being. Although it is possible if he wanted too he could create Chaos, who would beget Gaia, who with Uranus would create Chronos who with Rhea; who would then create Zeus; etc. etc.
 
Well… It’s possible that some form of “God” to exist in a Greek sense; but it would be misleading to use the word God; as they simply are not “I AM”; as they exist through Production, for example Zeus is the son of Cronus.

It is plausible that something such as Zeus could exist; but only exist if it were created (in the same way an Angel may exist); but there cannot be more than **ONE **individual who is the creator of the Universe; nor can there be more than ONE omnipotent being.

Further; it is also essential that there is ONE omnipotent being. Although it is possible if he wanted too he could create Chaos, who would beget Gaia, who with Uranus would create Chronos who with Rhea; who would then create Zeus; etc. etc.
Suppose that these ‘gods’ (the Greek ones) do exist.

Why should they not be worshiped?
 
Suppose that these ‘gods’ (the Greek ones) do exist.

Why should they not be worshiped?
For the same reason we don’t “worship” Saints or Angels-there is a more powerful, and perfectly benevolent being that we also know to exist. We worship this being.
 
Suppose that these ‘gods’ (the Greek ones) do exist.

Why should they not be worshiped?
Though a politician has more power than I; I do not worship him; for he is not all powerfull.

Though my parents caused me to be; I do not worship them; for they are not the first cause.

Think of it this way; were they even to exist; their existence would be similar to that of Angels; who we do not worship.

Marc Anthony beat me too it…

Although Marc Anthony is faster at responding than me; you should not worship him …

👍
 
Human imagination made the Greek gods and goddesses. The gods and goddesses that the Greeks created had all the fallacies of their human creators.

See the post titled: No One Sees God

The original OP wrote:

"“If you make mistakes about your own nature, you will make as many mistakes about God, and quite properly then, reject what your inquiries put before you. The god you fantasize will appear to you not very great, a delusion, a snare from which others ought to be freed. You will despise this god.”

I added in response:

God the Father, gave us His Law. Not vice versa. That’s the difference between objective Truth and relativism (truth determined at the will of each person.) Of course, hard hearted and stubborn people want to hear nothing of God’s Law for man.
 
Human imagination made the Greek gods and goddesses.

The gods and goddesses that the Greeks created had all the fallacies of their human creators.
It has been a LONG time since I studied Greek mythology, so perhaps I shouldn’t opine. But I will anyway, and agree with you in part and dispute in part.

It has to be accepted that human imagination made the Greek gods and goddesses, but it was almost a compelled imagination. Their deities typically represented things that were true, at least to some degree. One might attribute that to the fact that humans have a perception of the natural law even in the absence of Revelation.

So, for example, “hubris” brought the wrath of the “erynis”. Humans could not overstep their natural entitlements without paying a severe price for doing so. In like manner, Providence, as conceived by Christians, cannot be “forced” by one’s will or actions, and the attempt to do so brings ruin. Shakespeare melded Greek tragedy principles and Christian principles in plays like “MacBeth” for example. The difference being that even MacBeth is not inexorably the pawn of “Ate” (fate), but could have changed it by true penitence, as offered to him at the last by MacDuff. That alternative, Christian in source, is not, however, available to Achilleus, whose “Ate” proceeds inexorably from his fatal overstepping of bounds set by “the gods”. That difference has naturally led scholars to query whether true “tragedy” in the Greek sense, is even possible in a Christian view of things.

Intriguingly, one of Apollo’s epithets is “Smintheus”, which means “mouse”. Apollo was the healer, but also the bringer of pestilence. So, another “truth before its time” the Greeks perceived a relationship between rodents and disease.

Greek mythology was multi-level, and studying it is like peeling an onion. Zeus of the Iliad, for instance, is sometimes nothing but a thug. Sometimes he is the ultimate deity; the source of all justice and of all creation. Sometimes Ares (Mars to the Romans) is hardly more than a powerful man, but sometimes he is an abstract principle, and hardly a being at all. Scholars have debated whether the more sophisticated view of gods and goddesses we find in even very old sources was an adaptation of older legends of a more primitive people, or whether those of better mind simply tolerated and accepted the highly anthropomorpic “versions” of the deities that lie on the surface of the myths, rather like Shakespeare propounded very profound human truths, but also provided ribald action for the unsophisticated “groundlings”.

It is intriguing that Christianity found little early acceptance among the Jews, but spread like wildfire among the Greeks. Was it because the Greeks no longer believed in Zeus and Hera, or was it something deeper? Was it perhaps that the sophisticated Greeks, who had, in their philosophical ruminations, long sought the “logos”, the principle that would explain how those things they perceived through rational inquiry and study was relevant to some ultimate Truth; a first century “Theory of Everything”, suddenly realized that the union of God and man in the person of Jesus was, indeed, the “logos”? I have long been intrigued by those words in the “Dies Irae”: “…testae David cum Sybila…” Some one or more of the Sybils had seemed to foretell the coming of Jesus. Indeed, Michaelangelo portrayed two of the Sybils on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

So, perhaps it could be rightly said that while the gods and goddesses of the Greeks were human inventions and had human traits, they also represented understandings of truths that went beyond the surface meaning of the myths. But, having no Revelation, the Greeks were, until Christianity, more or less “stuck” with those (perhaps more ancient) personifications.
 
Hi all,

I’ve always grappled with the concept of Greek polytheism. Is it possible their gods exist in real life and are not merely myths?

I know there is a thread entitled “Polytheism illogical?” where an issue similar to this is addressed. However, my question is not “can 2 entities both be I AM?” rather, my question is “does Zeus and the other gods exist?”

Thoughts?

Coolduude
Why the Greek gods? Why not the Roman gods, or the Aztec gods, or the Hindu gods, or any number of gods and goddesses that mankind has worshipped since the beginning? Who is to say they didn’t exist? Take your pick. It is no more logical to pick the Greek gods than it is to pick the others.

Think of the path this is leading you down. Do you really want to go there?
 
From the Christian perspective, one of the necessary aspects of true divinity is to be eternal. In other words, being uncreated and always in existence.

It is worth noting that none of the Greek gods of mythology are described as eternal. They were either born of other gods (or god & human unions), or brought into being by some sort of event. For this and other reasons, the Greek mythological gods could not truly be divine (from a Judeo-Christian perspective) but are rather descriptions of created beings wielding super powers. With this in mind, I consider them the ancient world’s versions of super heroes and super villains (in a manner of speaking).
 
From the Christian perspective, one of the necessary aspects of true divinity is to be eternal. In other words, being uncreated and always in existence.

It is worth noting that none of the Greek gods of mythology are described as eternal. They were either born of other gods (or god & human unions), or brought into being by some sort of event. For this and other reasons, the Greek mythological gods could not truly be divine (from a Judeo-Christian perspective) but are rather descriptions of created beings wielding super powers. With this in mind, I consider them the ancient world’s versions of super heroes and super villains (in a manner of speaking).
Not to be difficult, but the gods and goddesses are often described as eternal in Greek mythology, though it seems more like “everlasting” than “eternal” in many contexts. And, Zeus’ common epithet “Te andron, te theon” (father of gods and men) suggests a lot more than the power of super heroes, and it suggests more than simply being “everlasting”. If one generated the gods, then one preexisted them.

I will agree to the likelihood of a very antropormophic view of the gods being prevalent in very primitive Greek belief; a view that likely continued with the less sophisticated for a very long time. However, I do maintain that, among the more sophisticated, the gods and goddesses were more like “concepts” than they were taken literally.

I’m not really quite arguing with you. I’m simply sticking to my belief that, at least by the time of the Iliad, Greek notions about the gods were multi-level, and what any particular Greek thought about them depended on the sophistication of the Greek.
 
Is it possible their gods exist in real life and are not merely myths?
Yes, many of them existed at one time. The Roman god Jupiter is Japheth, son of Noah, and Vulcan is Tubal-Cain, son of Lamech by Zillah; these are the only ones I can remember.
 
It is a common opinion of the Early Church Fathers that the false gods of the pagans were actually demons posing as gods to deceive men and lead them away from the truth. St. Justin Martyr mentions this among others. While not a definitive teaching of the Church, this theory certainly seems plausible.
 
It is a common opinion of the Early Church Fathers that the false gods of the pagans were actually demons posing as gods to deceive men and lead them away from the truth. St. Justin Martyr mentions this among others. While not a definitive teaching of the Church, this theory certainly seems plausible.
Very plausible, given that the gods were certainly capable of evil. Still, I think the gods were understood on different levels by different people.
 
Not to be difficult, but the gods and goddesses are often described as eternal in Greek mythology, though it seems more like “everlasting” than “eternal” in many contexts.
The question is, does mythology describe any of the gods as being eternal according to the Judeo-Christian concept? In other words, are any members of the Greek pantheon described as always having existed? I can’t think of any. Unless there is an example to the contrary, I humbly submit that the “everlasting” designation would not be “in many contexts” but rather “all contexts.” A Greek god may be described as “everlasting” (that is, having no end, never dying, etc.) without this meaning that he always existed.
And, Zeus’ common epithet “Te andron, te theon” (father of gods and men) suggests a lot more than the power of super heroes
The fatherhood of Zeus is traditionally considered more of an acknowledgement that he rules both gods and humans the way a patriarch rules a family. For example, Zeus was not “the father of men,” in the sense of generation, because in mythology the Titans Prometheus and Epimetheus were the ones who fashioned humans (according to Bullfinch’s Mythology). Nevertheless, all humans were subject to Zeus’ rule.

I admit that what we see of the powers of Greek gods in mythology is beyond the scope of your typical comic book super hero. That is why in my last post I stated that my comparison of mythology to comic books was “in a manner of speaking.” And of course the role of mythology is different from the role of comic books. Nevertheless, I still submit that the powers ascribed to the Greek gods fall well below the Judeo-Christian concept of divinity, and I will use Zeus as an example.

First let us go back to the Judeo-Christian concept of divinity including the atttribute of being eternal. Along these lines, you stated in your elaboration on the title of Zeus being “father of gods and men”:
… and it suggests more than simply being “everlasting”. If one generated the gods, then one preexisted them.
Unless I am mistaken in my understanding of mythology, Zeus did not generate all the gods, but only some. Zeus was the offspring of the titans Cronus and Rhea, therefore Zeus is not eternal, but rather came into existence at an event fixed in time and space. Furthermore, he was the youngest of the children of Cronus, meaning that all of Zeus’ siblings were gods who pre-existed him. The titans, in turn, were pre-existed by certain godlike beings such as Gaia (“earth”) who in turn were generated by the void of Chaos. In light of all this, the designation of Zeus in mythology as being the “father of the gods” is a description of all the gods being subject to his rule (i.e., in the same way that he is described as the “father of men”).

(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued from my last post)

Moreover, from the Judeo-Christian perspective, divinity includes the ability of true creation, the ability to bring something into existence from nothing. Zeus is not described as doing this, but rather he refashions what was already in existence.

Divinity also includes the attribute of omnipotence (“all powerful”). Is Zeus described as being powerful? Absolutely. But is he “all powerful”? No, because he needed the assistance of his siblings, as well as the Cyclopes he freed from Tartarus, in order to defeat Cronus in battle. A truly omnipotent being could have utterly defeated Cronus with a simple thought, rather than wage a protracted battle relying on the help of allies.

In light of all this, I see the descriptions of Greek gods from mythology as stories of beings with great super powers, but still not stepping into the realm of true divinity. Hence, my comic book comparison. (As a side note, I grew up reading both mythology and comic books, so I hope my posts in this thread do not come across as me denigrating either one.)
I will agree to the likelihood of a very antropormophic view of the gods being prevalent in very primitive Greek belief; a view that likely continued with the less sophisticated for a very long time. However, I do maintain that, among the more sophisticated, the gods and goddesses were more like “concepts” than they were taken literally.
I have no reason to doubt this, but I am simply going by what the tales related in mythology actually describe.
I’m not really quite arguing with you.
Rest assured, I see this as an interesting examination of philosophy and ancient literature rather than an argument, and I appreciate your insights.
I’m simply sticking to my belief that, at least by the time of the Iliad, Greek notions about the gods were multi-level, and what any particular Greek thought about them depended on the sophistication of the Greek.
Generally speaking, when Greeks started entertaining the concept of true divinity they gradually rejected belief in the Greek pantheon and developed the various forms of Greek philosophy. You have noted the movement among the Greeks from a primitive anthropomorphic view of the gods to a more sophisticated multi-level understanding around the time of the Iliad (and I do not disagree with this assessment). But I would like to point out that this sophistication would progress even further, resulting in the concepts of divinity taught by such people as Plato and Aristotle, which had little, if nothing, to do with Greek mythology. Therefore, the Iliad era of sophisticated Greek thought was no longer traditional mythology, but neither was it yet the fruition of ancient Greek philosophy. Based on this, I am not sure why the Iliad era should be the groundpoint for discussing the concepts of divinity described by either mythology or philosophy.

But I am not making a hard-line stance in this regard, and am willing to continue considering examples of comparisons between Greek mythology and Judeo-Christian theology. I do not claim to be an expert on Greek mythology and admit that I may be missing something.
 
Divinity also includes the attribute of omnipotence (“all powerful”). Is Zeus described as being powerful? Absolutely. But is he “all powerful”? No, because he needed the assistance of his siblings, as well as the Cyclopes he freed from Tartarus, in order to defeat Cronus in battle. A truly omnipotent being could have utterly defeated Cronus with a simple thought, rather than wage a protracted battle relying on the help of allies.
It seems we could also say that a truly omnipotent being could have utterly defeated sin and death with a simple thought, rather than becoming man and waging a protracted battle relying on the help of allies… Nonetheless…
 
It seems we could also say that a truly omnipotent being could have utterly defeated sin and death with a simple thought,
Christ utterly defeated sin and death by simply dying for the sins of humanity. I see this act just as simple as a thought.
…rather than becoming man
Had he not truly became man, he could not have paid (on our behalf) the wages of our sins, which is death.
…and waging a protracted battle relying on the help of allies… Nonetheless…
God allows others to participate in his plan of salvation (Mary, the Archangel Michael, etc.). This is not the same thing as saying that he was relying on the help of others. Reliance indicates necessity.

May I ask what exactly is the point of your post in the context of this thread? Are you saying that the description of the power of Zeus from mythology matches the omnipotence ascribed to God in Judeo-Christianity? My position was that Zeus is described in mythology as unable to defeat Cronus by his own power, and out of necessity had to enlist the assistance of monsters and other gods (all of whom actually pre-existed Zeus). Therefore, mythology does not give Zeus a true attribute of omnipotence. But in terms of Christian theology, whom did God actually rely upon in order to defeat sin and death? No one.

Furthermore, Zeus fought Cronus to prevent the titan from imprisoning him. In other words, the power of Cronus was a direct threat to Zeus, and Zeus fought to defend himself. God was never threatened by Satan (Satan rebelled against God, but had no chance of actually overthrowing God’s power), nor was God ever threatened by sin or death. God became man to defend and save us, not himself. Therefore, I don’t think the the battle between Zeus and Cronus is really a good comparison with the battle between God and Satan/sin/death.
 
From the Christian perspective, one of the necessary aspects of true divinity is to be eternal. In other words, being uncreated and always in existence.

It is worth noting that none of the Greek gods of mythology are described as eternal. They were either born of other gods (or god & human unions), or brought into being by some sort of event. For this and other reasons, the Greek mythological gods could not truly be divine (from a Judeo-Christian perspective) but are rather descriptions of created beings wielding super powers. With this in mind, I consider them the ancient world’s versions of super heroes and super villains (in a manner of speaking).
They may not have been “eternal” in the sense of “without beginning and end” but they WERE certainly “eternal” in the sense of “never dying.” It was, I think, their consumption of a special kind of Ambrosia that kept them Eternal.

The Gods/Goddesses that were not “eternal” were the Norse Pantheon, who WILL one day die (i.e., Ragnarok).
 
They may not have been “eternal” in the sense of “without beginning and end” but they WERE certainly “eternal” in the sense of “never dying.” It was, I think, their consumption of a special kind of Ambrosia that kept them Eternal.

The Gods/Goddesses that were not “eternal” were the Norse Pantheon, who WILL one day die (i.e., Ragnarok).
Eternal, as I understand it, is a thing that has no beginning and no end (i.e. God).

An immortal thing has a beginning but no end (i.e. An angel or a human soul).
 
Of course they existed! They were parasitic creatures that inhabited human hosts an forced humans to worship them until a revolt in Egypt forced Ra to flee the planet. Unfortunately, he took the Stargate with him.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top