On the justice of original sin

[Kei]

Are you commanded certainty?

What is faith?

Have you looked at the relevant evidences of various miracles, signs, and philosophy?

Have you ever learned how to pray?

We are expected much if we are given much; less if we are given less. Ah, but how often are we given more than we think.

Have you ever pondered on the trees, the earth, the sky, or the ocean?

"Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the Lord for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."

So often have we a pride, some of the common forms of our time are a pride of self, and a pride of intellect.
So often have I lost to these!

 

[Curious11]

I’ve prayed the our father in Spanish since as long as I can remember. I love the sky and birds, I love clouds and stars so much my head is often stuck in them.

But then I remember I’m here on Earth, where literally nothing in His creation is good enough for Him. He created a disappointment and made us pay for His incompetence/sadism. And then sent most of us to hell for the most random bull crap you can imagine.

That’s not a description of a loving or logical God, more like a sado-masochist maniac

 

[misstherese]

@Curious11 Will you please read this? Try not to read it through any predetermined lens if you can, instead just read it and soak it in. God bless.

http://www.dailycatholic.org/4bridg70.htm

 

[Curious11]

I’ll do it for you. I’ll get back to you

 

[Kei]

But then I remember I’m here on Earth, where literally nothing in His creation is good enough for Him. He created a disappointment and made us pay for His incompetence/sadism. And then sent most of us to hell for the most random bull crap you can imagine.

Oh? But, it was good! He Himself says so! It is up to us to make the world a little better after we do so much to drag it down.

Random!? The moral law can be seen through the light of natural law, and our own hearts. Testing shows that both sides of the political spectrum, at least where I am, are both the same level of moral, just putting applying them differently. But, I must wonder how you know who is judged fit for Hell? Nay, have hope!

 

[Curious11]

That’s not proof, Emily. It’s not enough, I’m afraid

 

[Curious11]

have hope!

No, i won’t. I won’t have blind faith and unjustified hope

Oh? But, it was good! He Himself says so! It is up to us to make the world a little better after we do so much to drag it down.

That would be fine and entertaining but for the small detail that failure to do so sends you to hell

 

[Benadam]

But ALL of that is like that for one unique reason: because God wants it to. He complicates the world because He wants to.

Is it evil because it’s what God wants or because it doesn’t meet our standard?

He’s made a poor case all these years, I’m not gonna put up with him any more unless he changes his deal to something that truly makes him deserve the adjective “good”

You just don’t seem to be talking about God as creator of all that is. The God that created you. The true reason for you to be. I mean it is His reason but that doesn’t change the fact that fulfilling that reason is what will bring ultimate happiness. Since God created you,you can’t escape that being happy is fulfilling His reason for your being.

 

[Curious11]

The claim that God created me is a conjecture, not a proven fact.

 

[Kei]

No, i won’t. I won’t have blind faith and unjustified hope

Kei:

Oh? But, it was good! He Himself says so! It is up to us to make the world a little better after we do so much to drag it down.

That would be fine and entertaining but for the small detail that failure to do so sends you to hell

Blind faith and unjustified hope? Why on earth is it unjustified to hope for the salvation rather than damnation of any particular person? Can we read their hearts or understand the deep recesses of their minds?

Failure to do what sends you to hell? To make the world a little bit of a better place? Well, I’m not sure about that. But, it is certainly better than making it a worse one or doing nothing!

Perhaps go to work with some religious order who do good works and go help them with those in need. Might help to see and work with yourself. God bless

 

[Curious11]

If God was good there would be no need to make the world a better place.

 

[Arkansan]

Adam and Eve were blessed with preternatural gifts. Original sin simply put humanity back in the position which they would have been in without special divine help.

 

[Benadam]

Benadam:

RedFan:

Why are we assuming that physical death is somehow a “punishment?”

I see it more as a consequence that we were forewarned of.

I don’t. When God, in that wonderful allegorical story recounted in Genesis 2, told Adam that "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die,” I think He meant spiritual rather than physical death. I say this not only because Adam didn’t die physically on that day, but because I see nothing in Genesis suggesting that Adam and Eve were created physically immortal to begin with.

Interpreting “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” as meaning “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely become physically mortal and forfeit your physical immortality” just tortures the text beyond any level that I am prepared to accept.

I don’t. When God, in that wonderful allegorical story recounted in Genesis 2, told Adam that "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die,” I think He meant spiritual rather than physical death.

Does that mean you believe the body was destined to die from the beginning?

 

[Kei]

That doesn’t follow logically within the Christian framework.

However, regardless of that fact, I think you should do what I have reccomended. Done with a kind heart, it is surely more constructive than arguing and being angry all day, probably. Mainly what we hope can come out of the latter is clarification on misconceptions, but this needs a heart open to truth.

 

[Curious11]

Not good enough, altruism has nothing to do with this. Whether I help out or not does not prove anything about God

 

[RedFan]

Does that mean you believe the body was destined to die from the beginning?

Indeed, that is what I believe.

 

[Kei]

It’s not about altruism (well, it is, but) it’s about coming to know things through experience.

 

[Gorgias]

If it is unjust for God to create Adam and Eve in such condition (or maybe not?), then why is it just for God to create any other person in such condition?

Actually, what we ‘inherit’ is human nature, as @HarryStotle mentioned. Adam and Eve were given “preternatural gifts” (you can read about them in the Catechism in paragraph 405). What we “inherit”, then, is a nature without those gifts that our first human parents had. And, if they were able to sin with those gifts, why would we think that we wouldn’t sin, even if we had them?

And it seems unjust to stipulate that evil needs to be renounced completely in order to NOT suffer eternally in hell, given that people have a damaged human nature that makes them have a tendency towards evil.

Hold on a second, though: condemnation doesn’t come from sin, per se – it comes from refusal to repent! So, even though we have a tendency to give in to temptation – which is a reflection of our human nature – we’re not punished for that. (After all, if we were, then there would be no salvation as soon as we committed a single sin, right?)

Rather, hell is our ‘reward’ for refusing to accept the gift of forgiveness that God offers each of us. It’s our deliberate action of refusal that merits eternity without God…

 

[Curious11]

I’d come to know the goodness of people, not God. Even if they say they follow God, they’re people, and not all altruists believe in this or any other God

 

[Kei]

I still don’t think you understand what I’m getting at, which affirms some things, but beyond that gives me the idea that this experience would be very good for you.
Peace