On the justice of original sin

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I’m not giving you proof. I reached faith not through proof, but through perspective. Understanding at least partially, the lengths a person (in this case, God!) would go through for you helps give an idea of how much they care about you.

Mary suffered a lot seeing her Son die so horribly, to see His tears stream down His face and the blood soak His body. She could have complained, “Why do you let us suffer, God? Why couldn’t you have just stopped sin in its tracks?!” But she did not. She knew that God’s will was greater than her own, that His knowledge was greater and His plan was greater. She accepted the suffering and gained merit from it. Now she is one of the happiest in heaven, helping her spiritual children down below as we, too suffer.

I suggest you research some about merit. It is taught in Catholicism that the more we suffer out of love, the greater glory and happiness we will gain in heaven.
“I do not desire to die soon, because in Heaven there is no suffering. I desire to live a long time because I yearn to suffer much for the love of my Spouse.”
–St. Mary Magdalene de Pazzi
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Suffering can only exist if sin first exists. That is why sin exists. The evil that lurks about us by the fault of others molds us into saints. God allowed sin because more good would come of it.

http://whitelilyoftrinity.com/saints_quotes_suffering.html
 
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Curious11 said:
The claim that God created me is a conjecture, not a proven fact.
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I think it’s reasonable considering the unique and singular qualities of the human animal. That chasm between humans and the rest of the animals. Also, the evidence of phenomena in human beings that don’t seem to have a material source. Such as the empirical evidence of the ability to observe sensible objects without the use of the senses. Any position in regards of God requires faith. Whether you believe God exists or not…
 
That just seems like cruelty. So He admits He wants us to suffer? He wants us to crawl through the mud for heaven? To receive the silent treatment and not give up under penalty of eternal torment?
 
Benadam said:
I think it’s reasonable considering the unique and singular qualities of the human animal. That chasm between humans and the rest of the animals.
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Evolution by natural selection is responsible for that, no God is needed to explain that
 
We do not receive silent treatment. Have you read St. Teresa of Avila’s Interior Castle? In it, she explains how she had a vision of the soul as having seven mansions. At the center is God, His light shining forth. In each mansion, there are rooms one enters, each room having its goal of moving us closer to God. When we are in the first three or so mansions, it’s hard to hear God because we are still dragged down by sin. But the fourth to the seventh, God acts on the soul because the soul is closer to perfection.

The closer we come to perfection, the more obvious it is that God is molding us with each wave of grace.

God does not want us to suffer extreme cruelty necessarily, but to take the little inconveniences or sufferings during our day and use them as redemptive. Suffering will exist whether we decide to offer it up or not. Sometimes it’s to wake us up and make us realize how miserable we are without Him, and other times it’s an opportunity for us to grow.
 
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That’s still deliberate hiding. The simple fact of the matter is that He doesn’t just reveal Himself, He has to bother us with puzzles and levels and paraphernalia and unanswered questions and “which way were you looking when this happened?” moments.

And Mother Teresa probably reached the highest level of that mansion, the result? 60 years of God ignoring her and hiding Himself
 
So we can blame evolution for the conscious awareness of death. Why is that a natural selection for survival?
 
She reached the dark night of the soul. God doesn’t give us more than we can handle. She felt God at one point during those spiritually dry years. But the purpose of it was so that her suffering could help others. She gained more merit for herself.

Again, God does not hide from us. We push Him away through our sins.

If God doesn’t feel present, (spiritual desolation it’s called) it’s always to help us. Without God, we will never feel satisfied. We will never experience true happiness. With God, even through suffering, we can experience satisfaction knowing that we are building our homes in heaven for eternity.
 
I really don’t think we’re on the same page.

What do you say we just agree to disagree?
 
If our nature is evolved and naturally selected because it survives better, I’m asking how the conscious awareness of death helps us survive better. .
 
The original sin was in fact a terrible, terrible sin… I don’t know why people underrate it so much…

I mean, think about it! They disobeyed and express order directly from God, and they thought they could be like Him by eating the forbidden fruit.

Whenever a person thinks they could be like God, they automatically reject God’s uniqueness and greatness. In other words, this is rejecting God Himself.

The punishment for the original sin was actually light… Adam and Eve could had been sent to hell right away for that infinite insult…
 
I just don’t think you’re understanding enough…that’s why we’re not on the same page. I think of you were to read more about the Catholic teaching on the reason for the existence of sin you may understand better.

Peacin out of this convo to start on supper. Hope you gain some perspective on here. God bless.
 
Not sure what you mean by conscious awareness of death, but fear of death obviously leads you to fight harder to survive and have children that receive your genetic disposition to fear death and they behave the exact same way.
 
Who knows what’ll happen? I might spend the next 80 years as an agnostic, I might convert to Catholicism in my heart tomorrow, I could die in 3 days and go to hell…

Beyond yours or my control I suppose
 
Animals have instincts that are a better tool than fear. Fear of death gets in the way of surviving. We need intense training to overcome it. All other animals are born with the tools to survive situations that threaten life.
 
That makes no sense. Fear of death is not the only thing that guarantees survival, there’s a whole range of features that are selected in favor of by evolution, fear of death is one of those, but it’s by no means the only one.

Fear of death may be needed to overcome if you want to be a soldier, but that’s not the environment we were living in when natural selection still applied to us (it doesn’t anymore)
 
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Even intense training doesn’t prevent permanent mental damage. Other animals don’t have any damage because a battle to the death doesn’t traumatize them.They aren’t consciously aware that they were in a battle to the death. They can just shrug it off till next time.
 
In what universe does that invalidate evolution by natural selection? It’s apples and oranges
 
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