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Benadam
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It’s an odd thing to naturally select for life that requires survival.
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Curious11
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??? All life requires survival.
Natural selection selects in favor of whatever is good enough to survive and have children who inherit the genes that give those features that are good enough to survive. No more, no less, it won’t eliminate bad things that aren’t bad enough to threaten survival
Natural selection selects in favor of whatever is good enough to survive and have children who inherit the genes that give those features that are good enough to survive. No more, no less, it won’t eliminate bad things that aren’t bad enough to threaten survival
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joeybaggz
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No argument there. I just think that the first two human beings, Adam and Eve, infused by God with His own image and likeness, reason, will, and the higher emotions, were much, much older than just a few centuries prior to the first known human civilizations.
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Benadam
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Rose, everything would be the same except our relationship with animals and nature. Humans wouldn’t use more than necessary of the natural resources. No one would have or want more than others. Every person would be other centered. A world that would have no graveyards. Ancestors could visit from heaven. Peoples life on earth doesn’t end in death but a taking up body and soul. The community of Saints would be our own ancestors who could visit anytime . In a world where no body dies the perception of time as we know it has disappeared… History doesn’t need written down because their is no death, the people have just moved into an elevated state. The life God intended for us is so much more natural. Since it’s our relationship with nature that’s changed not so much nature,.the major shift in condition is ours.
The natural disasters on earth only victimizes us as we are now… The experience of suffering for the animals is natural to them. An egoless other centered population of humans on earth brings all that is natural on earth into harmony.
Humans don’t do what God created them to do naturally. We would by nature accomplish what conscious minded people fear judgement for not doing.
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Benadam
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I just started reading Tielhard De Chardin. Very interesting and insightful
St Paul does see the earth in labor but it’s suffering that is only happening because of sin. We can see a natural world progressing without a fall but not humans. Human nature took a fall. Our role in the natural world was pivotal so all nature sufferes
We have in ways We know things we didn’t before. But our intellects are clouded and unable to exercise it’s ful potential .
That’s true yes I agree. It’s natural for animal bodies to return to dust but our bodies life is proper to our soul so it isn’t supposed to return to earth but be lifted up body and soul to heaven.
I like Tielhard De Chardin. I just started reading his work.
Peace Rose
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Benadam
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It would be impossible for nature to select something that it doesn’t have. Show me somewhere nature could have selected free will or the power to reason? To know sensible objects and abstract meaning? Those things only exist in us they aren’t available for natural selection. Conscience, the ability to observe and understand the universe. Thos just aren’t things material processes provided.
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someone429
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Hey, guys, you have talked so much, but it seems that you weren’t focusing on the topic.
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Benadam
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A just punishment is based on a just judgement of an act. Is this a crime? In this case the question is why it’s a crime. The circumstances and conditions are weighed in order to arrive at a just decision. In order to do this one has to consider a position that seems to oppose God as just. It’s a complex journey if you are seeking reasons to believe or deny whether or not the original sin is a crime or if the punishment is just. What exactly is the purpose of the thread? The original sin is a mystery. God said it’s a sin. So the original sin is not a justifiable act in God’s sight. The consequences for the act is that fair? These questions are in my opinion are exploring the requirements of a just decision.
I think exploring that condition involves whether or not death is natural or unnatural to humans.
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Benadam
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I’m pretty sure the evidence of human intellect is visible in the world and the visible evidence for other animals is non existent. We can argue whether or not animal intelligence is intellect. But if we do decide it is intellect then we either have to admit that their souls are created directly from God or ours are not.
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PJM
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WOW! Several good questions here.
1 WHY does God impose on all of humanity; the guilt and the consequences of Original Sin?
Answer: Because of the gravity of Original sin which desired to assume the very powers and equal- Sovereignty of GOD. Gen 3:5 were severe by Divine Justice. {I CREATED YOU and you desire to be my EQUAL}
Secondly is the consideration that Humanity is created in the very image of our God. Gen 1:26-27 {the only Rational creation on earth}
Third: The Garden of Eden was a Perfect existence with not a single want short of “being god.”
Forth Actions have equal off-setting consequences
2 The penalties you allude too are not only “penalties”, more importantly they are the means when accepted as our “crosses”; to attain our Eternal Salvation. “And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” [Luke 14:27]; THUS Divine Justice is assuaged; God is thus Glorified and we earn the possibility of being Sanctified.
3 [quote Every person is a new person
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TRUE: and here’s WHY: Isa. 43: verse 7 &21 “And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. &This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise”
We exist because GOD Created us [alone on earth as Rational beings; for a precise purpose]. LIFE BY GOD’S INTENT IS TO BE “A GOD TEST.” This TEST has only a “pass” or “FAIL” grading.
4 God can be described as “All Good things Perfected.” This means God in order to be GOD can only do in Divine Justice; “good things.” God can and does permit evil as a man’s personal choice as part of the “God Test.”; but God neither desire or WILL evil.
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rose321
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Hello
Respectfully>>Tthank you for your kind reply and on my part if so interested >search out on this forum, Title topic " Will my dog go to Heaven" look for my Reply or opinion on. And in the story of Job, suffering is just part of Life for all, go through it through out their Journey. Natural Law for all. Enjoy conversation, thank you again for kind reply. Peace
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Benadam
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I agee. Adam suffered loneliness in the Garden. It was the beginning of preparation for a new perfection in his journey to God. I will check out the other thread. Thank you for inviting me. 
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RedFan
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This is troubling on several fronts. You are suggesting that “because” it is so grave (your word), punishment for ancestral sin is visited on descendants even though it was the ancestor’s exercise of free will, not the descendants’ exercise of free will, that chose to sin!
We foolish humans have a word for this: unjust. Punishing descendants for any ancestor’s sin is bad enough. But doing so because it was so grave? That’s even worse. There is something unsettling about God’s punishment of one person for another’s transgressions simply because of blood lines, i.e., Grandpa was a bad man, so I get whipped for his deeds. The worse his transgression, the more unjust it is to impute it to me. If I am as wicked as Grandpa was, then punish me for my wickedness. Not for his. And leave my newborn infant out of it.
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fide
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Are you old enough to begin to see your parents in you - in your expressions, facial and verbal, in vulnerabilities and in strengths, in temperament, and maybe in other surprising ways? Both old and new come forth, in a child - we are linked to the past and the future is linked to us, by God’s intention.
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Benadam
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This makes a good point. God didn’t create more people by Himself. The order He created in the beginning is the order He works within. There was only one family of man possible. That or nothing. He could’ve sent Adam and Eve to hell. I suppose He could wipe out the first family and start over, but that seems unjust., considering He created us in a state of becoming.
Edit. It wouldn’t be unjust to send Adam and Eve to Hell. His mercy and justice were exercised.
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Latin
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God bless you Benadam and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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If God would wiped out the first family and to start over again, according to God’s Eternal Design/Plan the second family would had to “fall” the same way.
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Eph.1:11;
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
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We are not in total darkness, if we know an overall picture of God’s Eternal Design/Plan/Universal Script.
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God has made His Eternal Design/Plan/Universal Script before the foundation of the world and since then God working on to complete His Design/Plan/Universal Script.
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It makes no difference how we cut it, the “fall” of Adam and Eve happened according to God’s foreordained Design/Plan/Universal Script for the benefit of the whole human race, it was not an accident as I use to believe.
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Quote from the Divine Providence:
Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.” End quote.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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We all born into this world spiritually dead and condemned in line with God’s foreordained Design/Plan/Universal Script. – Rom.5:17-18.
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Quote from the Divine Providence:
Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10; End quote.
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If we don’t know God’s Plan, we tend to think, this chaos in the world is mistakes and the creation of men, it is not mistakes of men, but a very much organized chaos which is an important part of God’s Plan for the benefit of the human race.
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“Suffering can only exist if sin first exists. That is why sin exists.
God allowed sin because more good would come of it.
The evil that lurks about us by the fault of others molds us into saints.” – Misstherese
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From Self-centredness to sainthood the road paved with suffering and cruelty, and these suffering and cruelty molds us into saints, there is no other way.
Those who first doesn’t experience suffering and cruelty cannot know happiness and joy.
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1 Cor.2:9; However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”
the things God has prepared for those who love Him.
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God bless you Benadam and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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Usagi
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The effects of original sin, in terms of concupiscense, are not a natural part of what it means to be human. Jesus did not suffer them and Mary was rescued from them, and they are human as can be. We do not agree with the Protestant notion of a “sin nature”; human nature as created by God is good, but damaged by original sin and our own actions.
Now, physical death (and lesser things like vulnerability to injury and pain) are probably a natural property of biological life. Adam and Eve, in whatever form they existed, were exempted from those by a preternatural gift and the fact that they were essentially living in a nature preserve (nowhere does the story say that Eden and its conditions covered the whole world; indeed, the garden is assigned a geographic location and being exiled to the outside world is part of the penalty). So animal and plant and microorganism death prior to the Fall does not necessarily contradict the Faith.
Now, physical death (and lesser things like vulnerability to injury and pain) are probably a natural property of biological life. Adam and Eve, in whatever form they existed, were exempted from those by a preternatural gift and the fact that they were essentially living in a nature preserve (nowhere does the story say that Eden and its conditions covered the whole world; indeed, the garden is assigned a geographic location and being exiled to the outside world is part of the penalty). So animal and plant and microorganism death prior to the Fall does not necessarily contradict the Faith.
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PJM
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My dear friend in Christ,
Your reply is a near perfect articulation of the real issue. ** foolish humans have a word for this: unjust.**
The Issue here is WHO”S In charge; you or God, and the disputed responsibility cannot be split.
Isa.29: 14, 1….and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hid."?" You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay; that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?
Isa. 55: 7 – 9 “let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
Here than is the question that needs to be asked: *“When is the last time GOD asked you or ANY human for his opinion?” *
God in order to be GOD has to be; can only be fair and just. God gives US His Church, Faith and Sacraments to facilitate and enhance the POSSIBILITY that each Soul who avail themselves in humility; of what He God makes available to US can attain Eternal Happiness in Heaven.
Satan & his “Bad angels failed God” and received their Just Reward. Adam and Eve Failed God and received their Just Reward; does not the GOD have the right to demand proof of our love and loyalty? God could have instead of even Creating US; just said; “I’m DONE” with these foolish people”
In the OT Circumcision was a requirement to be identified as “marked for God” & the removal of Original sin; in the NT it is Sacramental Baptism that is required. IS THAT REALLY TO MUCH TO DEMAND? Does NOT God have the right to demand proof of our love and commitment to Him?
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someone429
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The idea that God foreordained all the evil, including the hell, in order to get “more good”, seems to make things more unjust and cruel, not less.
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