On the justice of original sin

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We all born into this world spiritually dead and condemned in line with God’s foreordained Design/Plan/Universal Script.

God bless you Someone429 and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Thank you for your post.
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God FOREORDAINED all events and DIRECTS all events, even evil and sin itself, BOTH good and evil proceed from Him within the universe for a perfect and HAPPY end for ALL creations (Rom.8:19-21).
It extends to all men, every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each.
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Let’s the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence speak.
I love the following teachings, I believe it is the SUMMIT of the Catholic Soteriology.
Not only Catholics, but every Christian should know the following teachings.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
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Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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It is grace of Christ that delivers us (Rom.7:25); and makes us co-heirs with Him (Rom.8:17).
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.
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[Latin]

Continuation
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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
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The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.
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God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
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Thus things happen contingently as well as of necessity (I, Q. xxii, a. 4), for God has given to different things different ways of acting, and His concurrence is given accordingly (I, Q. xxii, a. 4).
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Yet all things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
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Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, and without violence: universal, because all things are subject to it (I, Q. xxii, a. 2; ciii, a. 5); immediate, in that though God acts through secondary causes, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);
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In spite of sin, which is due to the willful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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(Concurrence = Agreement or union in action: COOPERATION) – In the brackets is addition.
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Sin is not ordained by the will of God, though it happens with His permission.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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[Latin]

Continuation
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THE POSITION THAT GOD AT THE END WILL SAVES EVERYONE IS NOT NEW

THE FOLLOWING EARLY FATHERS OF THE CHURCH ARE SAID TO HAVE TAUGHT THAT ALL WILL FINALLY BE SAVED
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Pantaenus; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; Athanasius; Didymus the Blind; Macarius of Egypt; Gregory Thaumaturgus; Ambrose; Ephraim; John Chrysostum; Gregory of Nyssa; Gregory of Nazianzus; Jerome of Bethlehem; Evagrius Ponticus; Titus of Bastra; Asterius of Amasea; Cyril; Methodius of Tyre; Pamphilius Eusibius; Hillary of Poitiers; Victorinus; Macrina the Younger; Dionysius the Areopagite; John Cassian; Maximus the Confessor; Proclus of Constantinople; Peter Chrysologus; Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili.
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The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation.
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I believe Pope Francis also agree with the teachings of universal salvation because he is the one who replaced Cardinal Gerhard Müller who was the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith until 02/07/2017, with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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In my opinion:
If Pope Francis would not believe Universal Salvation, he would not replace Cardinal Gerhard Müller with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation:
Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author)
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EDITORIAL REVIEWS
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating the doctrine of universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed.” – David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"
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Continuation
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ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, a Jesuit theologian who is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has been a professor of theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University of Rome since 1984.

He was also a professor at the Comillas University in Madrid, and from 1992 to 1997 he was a member of the International Theological Commission.

Since 2004 he has been the general secretary of that commission. His works have greatly contributed to contemporary theological debates.

Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
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Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.
Quote: Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).

The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other [p. 144].

Yet by dying, he gave us life, that is the life of his resurrection.
Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God [p. 148-149]. End quote.
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Please Someone429 let me know your view on my posts.

Do you still believe God is more unjust and cruel even as He saves ALL creations which extends to all men, every individual?
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God bless you Someone429 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Aulef]

I would like to add two more things.

First, only Adam and Eve were punished for their sin. The rest, in regard to us, is pure side effect.

Second, God HIMSELF came to earth in order to undo their wrongs. And He instituted the Sacrament of Baptism to undo the effects of original sin so we may be able to have eternal life again.

As a matter of fact, the coming of Christ to save us was the best thing that has happened to humanity. We must live up to his gifts which are the Law unveiled, the Catholic Church and the seven Sacraments

 

[RedFan]

First, only Adam and Eve were punished for their sin. The rest, in regard to us, is pure side effect.

Second, God HIMSELF came to earth in order to undo their wrongs. And He instituted the Sacrament of Baptism to undo the effects of original sin so we may be able to have eternal life again.

If this is an attempt to paint God as just, it doesn’t work.

First, calling original sin a “side effect” rather than a punishment just kicks the can down the road. God ordained that Adam and Eve’s progeny would suffer the ill effects of ancestral sin not of their choosing.

Second, God’s undoing those ill effects doesn’t make imposing them in the first place any more just, at least as we humans reckon justice. (If I had a cure for spina bifida that I freely offered to those who were afflicted, would that make it just for me to infect their mothers’ DNA with the spina bifida gene to begin with?)

 

[RedFan]

Now, physical death (and lesser things like vulnerability to injury and pain) are probably a natural property of biological life. Adam and Eve, in whatever form they existed, were exempted from those by a preternatural gift and the fact that they were essentially living in a nature preserve

I agree with the first sentence, except that I would remove the word “probably.”

But the second sentence assumes that Adam and Eve would never have experienced physical death but for their sin and subsequent booting out from the Garden. I don’t see the slightest hint of that assumption in the Genesis story. I think it is safer to assume that they were always going to die physically, and their sin simply caused them to die spiritually.

 

[Benadam]

God bless you Benadam and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thanks Latin. May God Bless you too!
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If God would wiped out the first family and to start over again, according to God’s Eternal Design/Plan the second family would had to “fall” the same way.

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This got me thinking. Would they have been less likely to fall away knowing what happened to the first creation of Man.

 

[Benadam]

But the second sentence assumes that Adam and Eve would never have experienced physical death but for their sin and subsequent booting out from the Garden. I don’t see the slightest hint of that assumption in the Genesis story. I think it is safer to assume that they were always going to die physically, and their sin simply caused them to die spiritually.

With the immortality of the soul and the mortality of the body in mind, death could only happen to the body. Spiritual death is a misnomer. Separation from God could only bring about death to the body. The nature of the human soul is spiritual like the angels. It is a conscious existence that never ends.
That hasn’t changed. There was no spiritual death possible.

Separation from God brought corruption to the body… The soul is incorruptible. Human nature being both spiritual and material. The withdrawal of God couldn’t cause loss of immortality on the immortal soul, it could only cause loss of immortality on the mortal body.

 

[Aulef]

Aulef:

First, only Adam and Eve were punished for their sin. The rest, in regard to us, is pure side effect.

Second, God HIMSELF came to earth in order to undo their wrongs. And He instituted the Sacrament of Baptism to undo the effects of original sin so we may be able to have eternal life again.

If this is an attempt to paint God as just, it doesn’t work.

First, calling original sin a “side effect” rather than a punishment just kicks the can down the road. God ordained that Adam and Eve’s progeny would suffer the ill effects of ancestral sin not of their choosing.

Second, God’s undoing those ill effects doesn’t make imposing them in the first place any more just, at least as we humans reckon justice. (If I had a cure for spina bifida that I freely offered to those who were afflicted, would that make it just for me to infect their mothers’ DNA with the spina bifida gene to begin with?)

Speak for yourself when you say He isn’t just.

What Adam and Eve made with God was a covenant. This type of agreement is even more binding than a contract. God told them beforehand the terms and the couple agreed.

Once the couple broke the covenant, God had no other option but to keep His word and punish them, since God always keeps His promises. And if you think this is silly, next time someone doesn’t keep their word or doesn’t fulfill a contract made with you, I wish you to remember this conversation we had and meditate about it.

Now, when I say it is a side effect, I urge you to think about a car accident, for instance. If some drunk truck driver crashes on a family car, even though this family is not guilty of anything, they will suffer the consequences of the wrong doings by the drunk driver.

 

[rose321]

The evil lasts to several generations

Original sin has lasted for thousands of generations, but that does not imply it had to.

Respectfully opinion only seeking understanding on justice of original sin etc in what is being discussed by others opinions>>so went looking within His Spoken Word>> in finding>Also repeated by Isaiah and Jeremiah> Repent and Turn >interesting> continues to flow>>NT John B and Jesus also> we have harden hearts of stone>then prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-35, interesting all flows does it not?.

Ezekiel 18:20>
Ezekiel 18:21-25 next He speaks to the transgressors>
Ezekiel 18:21-30 >next He continues, speaks to both righteous/unrighteous, those who don’t and those who do transgress the law, or commint sin>>>then gives us instructions how to return?
Ezekiel>>18: 30-32>>>>“Repent and Turn”>Get yourselves a >>New Heart and a New Spirit
Interesting flows with Jesus teachings who commands us to>> Test all Spirits why?

Peace:

 

[rose321]

Are you old enough to begin to see your parents in you - in your expressions, facial and verbal, in vulnerabilities and in strengths, in temperament, and maybe in other surprising ways? Both old and new come forth, in a child - we are linked to the past and the future is linked to us, by God’s intention.

Respectfully opinion only. Agree!!>>> both the old and new come forth and the old also can be perfected, and the new can also fall in the errors of its own ways>We continue to live through our seeds planted. Different ways to look at this, is there also?

I am of my Father I am of My Mother, but I am also >>A child unto my own?
And if you see me, can you see My Father or My Mother in Me?
In what ways, do you see My Father in Me?
In what ways do you see My Mother in Me?
In what ways do you not see, neither My Father or My Mother in Me?

I had to learn Knowledge and Understanding to Know Him,so I went seeking within His Spoken Word.

Not mine Words but His>
1Corinthians 1:20, 1:25, 1:27, Isaiah 47:10, Jeremiah 8:9, Proverbs 1-15, Ephesians 5:12-21, Psalm 14:1

I

We foolish humans have a word for this: unjust.

Reading ones opinion, having concerns, questions, making strong points, maybe HE within >>>His Spoken Word might help in answering some of your concerns, questions? And Bible Verses printed above, hope that helps one in seeking some understanding to ones concerns and questions.

Not my Words, but His>

Ezekiel 18: 20>who will be at fault?
Ezekiel 18: 21-25>not unjust or unfair
Then Ezekiel 18:25-29

Seems within > Prophet Ezekiel>>continues to All flow with >>>>> His Spoken Word in>>Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, John Baptist, Jesus, Apostles etc>
Flows all throughout the Bible, does it not? sins / trangressions?
Repent and Turn?
Change our harden hearts?
Get a New Heart and New Spirit?
Turn from our transgressions?
An internal change within each of us, is needed to come first?
An Internal Change our Ways, Change our Thoughts, Words, Deeds?
Within each one of us, is this what His Spoken Word is continually being repeated within the Bible on sins/transgressions, since the time of original sin?
Then there is this Prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34, Not unjust God is he? But one of Justice/ sins/transgressions?

Peace

 

[Benadam]

I agee.
God really didn’t do anything. Mortal sin places an obstacle between us and Him. We and Adam need His Grace to have life everlasting.

 

[RedFan]

What Adam and Eve made with God was a covenant. This type of agreement is even more binding than a contract. God told them beforehand the terms and the couple agreed.

Once the couple broke the covenant, God had no other option but to keep His word and punish them, since God always keeps His promises. And if you think this is silly, next time someone doesn’t keep their word or doesn’t fulfill a contract made with you, I wish you to remember this conversation we had and meditate about it.

I agree with all of that. I have never denied that Adam and Eve deserved their punishment if they breached he deal. But we are talking about what happened to the progeny of the breachers, and punishment of their progeny was never part of the bargain.

Now, when I say it is a side effect, I urge you to think about a car accident, for instance. If some drunk truck driver crashes on a family car, even though this family is not guilty of anything, they will suffer the consequences of the wrong doings by the drunk driver.

That’s right. The innocent do occasionally suffer from acts of negligent or criminal behavior. Are you suggesting that God acted negligently or criminally? Because if not, that leaves Adam and Eve as acting negligently or criminally. But unlike your hypothetical driver, Adam and Eve had no way of knowing that their unborn descendants were at risk form their actions. That driver and the victims of his conduct were party to no contract, no covenant.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

God bless you Benadam and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thanks Latin. May God Bless you too!
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If God would wiped out the first family and to start over again, according to God’s Eternal Design/Plan the second family would had to “fall” the same way.

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This got me thinking. Would they have been less likely to fall away knowing what happened to the first creation of Man.

God bless you Benadam and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Good question. The answer to it is no.
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The “fall” in God’s Eternal Design/Plan is FOREORDAINED from all eternity for the BENEFIT of the entire human race.
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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
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Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, … efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);
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As you see Benadam, in God’s Eternal Design/Plan/Universal Script EVERY event down to its minutest details, has been IRREVOCABLY FIXED AND FOREORDAINED FROM ALL ETERNITY for the BENEFIT of the entire human race which extends to all men, every individual.
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Would be interesting to know the time in God’s Universal Script when we (Bride of Christ/Church) will come down from heaven (at Christ second coming) and start to rule over all the Nations.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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WITHOUT GOING INTO THE FINE DETAILS

The whole creation (Eph.1:10; Col.1:20) will be restored by recreation including all Nations/Every member of the entire human race and they will have eternal life in the recreated New Earth.
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Only the Church/Bride of Christ goes to heaven, but even the Bride of Christ will come down from heaven with Christ at His Second Coming and He will rule over all Nations with His Bride.
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Christ will rule aver the nations with the Saints/Body of Christ/Church.
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Dan.7:13-14;
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
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Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
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CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.
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Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
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Isaiah 11:6-9;
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.

7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.
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Ezekiel 36:24-28;
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

28 Then you will live IN THE LAND I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
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Did you notice Benadam, the recreated ex reprobate Jews will live IN THE LAND not in heaven, of course the same principle applies to all Nations.

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THE NEW EARTH AND THE NEW HEAVEN WILL BECOME ONE IN CHRIST

Revelation 21:2, 10, 24, 26;
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth (Bride of Christ) will bring their splendor into it. In the brackets added.

26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
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In God’s Eternal Design/Plan/Universal Script EVERY EVENT (includes the above events) down to its minutest details, has been IRREVOCABLY FIXED AND FOREORDAINED FROM ALL ETERNITY for the BENEFIT of the entire human race which extends to all men, every individual.
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God bless you Benadam and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[RedFan]

The “fall” in God’s Eternal Design/Plan is FOREORDAINED from all eternity for the BENEFIT of the entire human race.

That makes God’s free will, not Adam and Eve’s free will, at fault for the Fall itself as well as for its ill effects being visited on their innocent descendants. Congratulations, you’ve just doubled the unfairness! Now, please explain how that was for my BENEFIT. If you were my Master and I was your slave, please explain how your gracious decision to free me is more beneficial than not enslaving me to begin with. (The latter would have been my choice, thank you very much!)

If your response is simply that it’s not my place to question God, fine, but at least acknowledge that you’ve provided no answer to the OP beyond “stop looking for an answer.” You’ve provided no logical defense of God’s apparent injustice.

But you’d be in good company. Paul couldn’t do it either (see Romans 9:19-24),

 

[Benadam]

I agree with all of that. I have never denied that Adam and Eve deserved their punishment if they breached he deal. But we are talking about what happened to the progeny of the breachers, and punishment of their progeny was never part of the bargain.

Aulef:

RedFan, can we call our condition a punishment when what God said can be summed up as" if you do this this will happen" in regards of original sin?

The punishments seem to be found in these statements coming from God

Gen 3 14-16
14 The Lord God said to the serpent,
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

16 To the woman he said,

“I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children,
yet your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”

What God say’s to Adam seems to be part of the 'if you do this" kind of thing. It doesn’t include the 'I will"

17 And to the man he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife,
and have eaten of the tree
about which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread
until you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”

 

[someone429]

Do you still believe God is more unjust and cruel even as He saves ALL creations which extends to all men, every individual?

If God saves all creations, that may (but I’m not sure) justify many things. However, the idea that God saves all creations has been officially rejected by the Catholic Church. Besides, it is also contrary to the Holy Bible. Therefore, it is impossible in Catholicism.