On the justice of original sin

[rose321]

Here than is the question that needs to be asked: *“When is the last time GOD asked you or ANY human for his opinion?” *

Respectfully toward, opinion only, not to offend. Excellent question!!

By His Authority given to All, to Freely Excercise>>He gives All His Creation, Free Will.> Free Will gives us All the Right to Question, to Examine and to Freely choose. But He makes it clear all throughout His Spoken Word, we will also be held Accountable and Responsible for the choices we make and how it will effect the Equal Rights, Freedoms, personal Lives of others?

Matthew 5:37 Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No and that anything extra, such as oaths, results in evil.

Love Me with your whole Heart, Soul and Mind> A Mind, Freedom of Thoughts, desiring us to Think, Question, Examine and a tongue for a purpose, to be able to ask, give our opinions, thoughts, when questioned?

All throughout the Bible > God ask many Questions to those He has created, those he has also choosen, desiring us all and to encourage us, forcing us maybe>>to think for ourselves maybe?
To stand up defend Truth, injustic done to others?
Commanded > Test all Spirits.

First question in the bible, God ask >Where are you?
Even thou he knows where they are?
What have you done? Genesis 3:13
Within Job alone God ask 215 questions example>>Job 38:31-39
Job speaks and gives his thoughts> his opinions, does he not?

Many to list Biblcial verses where the word opinion is used?
We will be judged also by our Thoughts, Words and Deeds?

Jesus asked many questions, put to His own Elders, Highly Learned Men of the Law, His own Priest, nor did Jesus just accept did He, what others told Him to think did he? Such men, who brought him before them, in questioning Him before their Council?

Jesus, ask for our opinions does he not?
What did King David mean when he said? My Lord said to My Lord?>thoughts? opinions?
Why do you call me Good? Mark10:18
Who do you say I am? Mark 8:29 repeated in John
Do you think I came to bring Peace? Luke12:51
What will it profit a man? Matthew 16:26
Where does it say man cannot feed himself on the Sabbath?
What is your Life? James 4:24
What do you want me to do for you? Mark 10:35-52

Jesus ask so many questions within the Gospels does he not?

God gives us instructions, teaching on how one is to use their tongues, correctly? Many biblical verses on that also, is there not?

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now let us reason together desiring to think for ourselves, give our opinions great to examine"

Lots of questions? Our thoughts, which our are opinions? Within the Bible, God ask others to give their opinions, thoughts of Him, He seeks answers from others, not like He does not know the answer thou.
Opinions of false prophets, teachers have misled others also>Sirach 3:23

Our Heavely Father, within His Spoken Word gives us a Biblical way in giving our opinions, our thoughts to bare good fruits also, does he not?

Praising Him we are giving Him our thoughts, opinions of Him are we not?
He is the searcher of all Hearts Souls Minds
How much have you Loved Me?

Peace

 

[Benadam]

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?`

Preformatted text
Not sure if I like the way that sounds
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[rose321]

and between your offspring and hers;

Respectfully opinion only questioning the word offspring, was the word seed in the original writtings or copies, beginning in Hebrew? Aramaic? or Greek? Not they will bring this about but their seeds ( their offsprings) will do so? Confused Peace

 

[rose321]

The “fall” in God’s Eternal Design/Plan is FOREORDAINED from all eternity for the BENEFIT of the entire human race.

provided no answer to the OP beyond “stop looking for an answer.” You’ve provided no logical defense of God’s apparent injustice.

Respectfully asking, seriously wanting to seek out Truth, Knowledge, Understanding of His Spoken Word, not doing so seems to add some what to confusion does it not?
In searching within other sources Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? difficult heavy task to translate into so many languages.

Question in seeking out> What was the original sin they committed Adam and Eve? I know do not eat, but when seeking out found this>>

Asking was the word >aw-kal >means to> lay?
The other word was it >Naw-Shaw- beguiled means> seduced? Some Scholars are they correct? Interesting

God following throughout seems to speak greatly on Fornication does he not?

2 Timothy 2:15 " Study to shew thyself approved and unto God a workman that needth not to be ashamed" Pope Benedict, did he not encourage such>>study study?

2 Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is God breathed it is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in Righteousness" study study?

Luke Acts 17:11 " Now the Berean Jews were of most noble character than those in Thesselinian for they recalled the message with great eargerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see of what Paul told was true" Study study search out truths? Test all Spirits?

Psalm 119> Love poem to God’s Law>>study scripture written within?

Deut 6:4-9

Then there are theses questions written within Scripture >Have you not read? Do you know what Scripture says?

And do not take all in the Bible literally either, given in teaching by our church Pope Benedict taught such did he not?>>>> Consider him to be A Great or one of the Greatest Theologian!! Read many of his books. Peace

 

[rose321]

** foolish humans have a word for this: unjust.**

The Issue here is WHO”S In charge; you or God, and the disputed responsibility cannot be split.

Respectfully asking opinion onlly not to offend either. Who is in charge having all authority over is God, our Heavenly Father, would this be true? Who judges all Hearts, Souls and Minds, correct?

James 4:12 " There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. So who then are you to judge your neighbour"?

Good Question, thank you. Who is in charge you or God? Judging other human beings as being foolish, one is correct>>> cannot be split?

Isaiah Chapter 29>> Whom is Isaiah addressing? Ariel?

Ariel>>> means what? Lion of God? Seat of the fire of God? Name of the burnt offerings, smybolic name for Jerusalem?

Isaiah chapter 29 beginnings in giving its Isaiah prophecies>> woes to Ariel (Jerusalem ) why?

The Prophet of Isaiah woes why?>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jerusalem prides itself as being God, and His altar hearth the very heart only>> cult ( system of worship) that pleased God only.>>>>>>>>>>>> But in fact God is not pleased at all. ( Note Oswalt pg 526) Nor with their sacrifices not pleased at all, is he?

Also the city boasted of its heritage in David, but the present residents did not share Davids Heart for God, Isaiah 29:13

So Isaiah is addressing, giving prophecy woes >>>>>>>to whom, those who claim to be God, Those who claim to be Wise rulers, showing their folly along with its people and because of their boasting were they not also? > Ariel>>>>> Claiming they were the only ones>>>>>> having such wisdom,.as wise men>>>>>>>>Woes are given to Ariel>>>>>also>>>>> because of their folly>>>>>>idolatry idols, abominations also upon His altar not pleased at all?

God gives His Prophecies woes for Ariel>>through His chosen Prophet Isaiah>>>>>>>Ariel (Jerusalem) will fall and be conquered, removed?. Thus reading on Isaiah 55:7-9. continues to flow in context For my thoughts are not your thoughts>>

Isaiah does he not teach us how to read scripture line upon line, line upon line, pretext upon pretext line upon line, important to stay in context to understand what is taking place to understand what is being said also?

Example, different with the Epistles of St Paul he sends>>>to the different churches, pointing out to each Church, their own transgressions they were committing, not pleased with, needing correction also, or salvation be lost, would this be some what correct maybe?

Like the Book of Rev also Jesus >>names the 7 Churches>>not pleased and points out each Church, its own transgressions, and what will be fall them, would that be true?

Peace .

 

[PJM]

Lots of questions? Our thoughts, which our are opinions? Within the Bible, God ask others to give their opinions, thoughts of Him, He seeks answers from others, not like He does not know the answer thou.

Opinions of false prophets, teachers have misled others also>Sirach 3:23

Our Heavely Father, within His Spoken Word gives us a Biblical way in giving our opinions, our thoughts to bare good fruits also, does he not?

Praising Him we are giving Him our thoughts, opinions of Him are we not?

Lots of questions? Our thoughts, which our are opinions? Within the Bible, God ask others to give their opinions, thoughts of Him, He seeks answers from others, not like He does not know the answer thou.

Opinions of false prophets, teachers have misled others also>Sirach 3:23

Our Heavely Father, within His Spoken Word gives us a Biblical way in giving our opinions, our thoughts to bare good fruits also, does he not?

Praising Him we are giving Him our thoughts, opinions of Him are we not?

He is the searcher of all Hearts Souls Minds

How much have you Loved Me?

A Beautiful and cleverly done reply; THANKS:grinning:

May God guide our paths,
Patrick

 

[RedFan]

RedFan, can we call our condition a punishment when what God said can be summed up as" if you do this this will happen" in regards of original sin?

Perhaps Adam and Eve cannot complain about a “punishment” if the consequences of transgressing were laid out in advance TO THEM (although the consequences you’ve quoted were not mentioned in advance of their transgression).

But they weren’t laid out TO US. So WE cannot call our condition anything other than a punishment – a punishment for someone else’s acts (the very definition of injustice, I suppose).

 

[Latin]

Latin:

The “fall” in God’s Eternal Design/Plan is FOREORDAINED from all eternity for the BENEFIT of the entire human race.

That makes God’s free will, not Adam and Eve’s free will, at fault for the Fall itself as well as for its ill effects being visited on their innocent descendants. Congratulations, you’ve just doubled the unfairness! Now, please explain how that was for my BENEFIT. If you were my Master and I was your slave, please explain how your gracious decision to free me is more beneficial than not enslaving me to begin with. (The latter would have been my choice, thank you very much!)

If your response is simply that it’s not my place to question God, fine, but at least acknowledge that you’ve provided no answer to the OP beyond “stop looking for an answer.” You’ve provided no logical defense of God’s apparent injustice.

But you’d be in good company. Paul couldn’t do it either (see Romans 9:19-24),

God bless you RedFan and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.

I’m sorry for I’m not properly formulated my sentence.
In the light of the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence I will correct my sentence.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.

Yet all things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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THE CORRECTED SENTENCE:
Their free choice of “fall” and their disobedience foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose, for the BENEFIT of the entire human race.
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THEIR JUST PUNISHMENT
Genesis 3:15-19; 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." … 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
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THEIR JUST PUNISHMENT WILL BE NULLIFIED BY ROM.5:18
Rom.5:18; Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. – Did you notice RedFan, “for all people,” NOT FOR A FEW PEOPLE. Please see also, 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.1:9-11; Col.1:20; etc. etc. …
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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ON THE JUSTICE OF THE CONDEMNATION OF THE REST OF THE PEOPLE

If the condemnation of the rest of the people would not be result for a far greater benefit then the loss of their condemned state I would say, their condemnation is unjust.

But I do not consider unjust if the condemned state brings a far greater benefit. - In this case, I do not even consider punishment but God’s gift.
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GOD’S AND ST. PAUL’S VIEW ON THIS SUBJECT
Romans 8:18; I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
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MY VIEW ON THIS SUBJECT
I’m happy in my state of sufferings and I’m 100 % sure God keeps His promises and He keeps me safe until the end.
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Phil.1:6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
I am sure, that He who began a good work in you will bring it on to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.
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I am sure too.
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I don’t even consider my past condemned state as God’s punishment, I rater consider it God’s refinement to glory.
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THE ROAD TO GLORY AS FOLLOWS
From Self-centredness to sainthood the road paved with suffering and cruelty, and these suffering and cruelty molds us into saints, there is no other way.

Those who first doesn’t experience sufferings and cruelty cannot know happiness and joy.
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God bless you RedFan and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[rose321]

Perhaps Adam and Eve cannot complain about a “punishment” if the consequences of transgressing were laid out in advance TO THEM (although the consequences you’ve quoted were not mentioned in advance of their transgression).

Respectfully opinion only pondering. Believe the consequences were laid out before them, were they not? Words their original meanings, translating into many languages is a very heavy, intense laboured task.

RedFan, can we call our condition a punishment when what God said can be summed up as" if you do this this will happen" in regards of original sin?

RedFan>Agree with, nicely stated! Exactly, what His Prophecies given are all about?
Why His Prophecies are given to His Choosen Prophets>his messengers >>>to forewarn His Creation, His Children>>>in whom He loves dearly, like any Loving Father>>> if you do this, this will happen >vs < if you do this, this will happen. Choices are ours to make, are they not? He has provided such Freedom to All. Gift of Free Will?

His Gift of Free Will gives us all, the sole authority to choose freely for ourselves, does it not?>>>Thus no one is to blame, but ourselves, not even God can be blamed can He?
Believing it is not HE who punishes either, does he?

Thus believe our Heavenly Father will never take away His Gift of Free Will from us, will he? For in doing so, would that not hold>> HIM>> fully Accountable and Responsible>>> for all such innocent suffering? loss of precious Life? inhumane atrocities committed? unjust wars? etc?

Many times repeated all through out the bible, like in Acts 7:51> stifneck people?

Love your neighbour as you love yourself.
Do onto others what you would want done unto you.
Let your ears hear> Sermon on the Mount.
Gives us instructions, direction, like any Loving Father, does He not, but the choice is ours to make?

Peace

 

[Latin]

Do you still believe God is more unjust and cruel even as He saves ALL creations which extends to all men, every individual?

God bless you Someone429 and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Thank you for your post.
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If we read the Holy Bible we can read, apart from a few people everyone end up in hell.

We also can read, God saves everyone, Rom.5:18; 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.1:9-11; Col.1:20; etc.
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Did you read my posts in this thread # 161, 162, and in particular 163, 164?
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I guess you did not read them, because if you read them you would know; it is not impossible in Catholicism that God saves everyone.
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In fact, the teachings of Universal Salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation.
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I believe God’s Justice, His Love and Mercy demands that He save everyone, in particular that our salvation is NOT our choice but His decision.
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John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
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John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.
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CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church Simplified.

Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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I like to have your view on my posts in this thread # 161, 162, and in particular 163, 164, and your view as well on this post.

Thank you in advance.
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God bless you Someone429 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[RedFan]

Believe the consequences were laid out before them, were they not? Words their original meanings, translating into many languages is a very heavy, intense laboured task.

The only consequence laid out in advance was that on the day Adam ate the forbidden fruit, he would surely die (which didn’t happen that day, at least if physical death was the consequence God meant). No matter how heavy, intense or labored the task of translation, there is no way to extract the parade of horribles described by Genesis 3:16-19 from Genesis 2:17’s תָּמֽוּת מ֥וֹת

 

[someone429]

I believe God’s Justice, His Love and Mercy demands that He save everyone, in particular that our salvation is NOT our choice but His decision.

Do you even believe that God will save all fallen angels, for example, Satan? At least, that is impossible in Catholicism.

 

[Latin]

I believe God’s Justice, His Love and Mercy demands that He save everyone, in particular that our salvation is NOT our choice but His decision.

God bless you Someone429 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.
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I speaking about the salvation of humans, Like the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence speaks.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
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Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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It is grace of Christ that delivers us (Rom.7:25); and makes us co-heirs with Him (Rom.8:17).
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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I still ask the question because you still didn’t answer.
Do you have any view on in the light of my posts in this thread # 161, 162, on my posts # 163, 164?
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I believe God’s Justice, His Love and Mercy demands that He save everyone, in particular that our salvation is NOT our choice but His decision.

I also ask, in the light of my post # 191: Do you have any view of my above statement?
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If you have no view on those posts still fine with me.

Of course I welcome anyone’s answer who has a view on those posts.
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God bless you Someone429 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Vico]

Catholicism teaches that because of the original sin, people suffer pain, diseases, and tendency towards evil. How can this be just?

Every person is a new person. If it is unjust for God to create Adam and Eve in such condition (or maybe not?), then why is it just for God to create any other person in such condition?

God is always just and Adam and Eve had original justice. Catechism explains that:

404… The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. 293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. …

 

[Gorgias]

I believe God’s Justice, His Love and Mercy demands that He save everyone, in particular that our salvation is NOT our choice but His decision.

I also ask, in the light of my post # 191: Do you have any view of my above statement?

Yes, I do.

What you’re espousing is called ‘universalism’, and the Church rejects that view.

Now, there’s a particular nuance that needs to be noted here: there’s a difference between the statement “God’s grace extends to every person, and therefore, every person may be saved” and the statement “God must save everyone”. The former speaks of potential and of individual salvation, and the latter speaks of mandate and a sort of ‘corporate’ salvation. The Church fully believes in the former, but rejects the latter.

Any of your quotes that speak to ‘everyone’ are addressing the former statement; but, it seems, that you’re utilizing them in support of the latter.

 

[Latin]

God bless you Gorgias and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.
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Maybe my following two posts change your view and you may believe that God’s Justice and His Mercy and Love DEMANDS that He saves every human person.
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THE POSITION THAT GOD AT THE END WILL SAVES EVERYONE IS NOT NEW

THE FOLLOWING EARLY FATHERS OF THE CHURCH ARE SAID TO HAVE TAUGHT THAT ALL WILL FINALLY BE SAVED
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Pantaenus; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; Athanasius; Didymus the Blind; Macarius of Egypt; Gregory Thaumaturgus; Ambrose; Ephraim; John Chrysostum; Gregory of Nyssa; Gregory of Nazianzus; Evagrius Ponticus; Titus of Bastra; Asterius of Amasea; Cyril; Methodius of Tyre; Pamphilius Eusibius; Hillary of Poitiers; Victorinus; Macrina the Younger; Dionysius the Areopagite; John Cassian; Maximus the Confessor; Proclus of Constantinople; Peter Chrysologus; Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili.
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The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation.
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I believe Pope Francis also agree with the teachings of universal salvation because he is the one who replaced Cardinal Gerhard Müller who was the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith until 02/07/2017, with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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In my opinion:
If Pope Francis would not believe Universal Salvation, he would not replace Cardinal Gerhard Müller with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation:
Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author)
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EDITORIAL REVIEWS
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating the doctrine of universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed.” – David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, a Jesuit theologian who is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has been a professor of theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University of Rome since 1984.

He was also a professor at the Comillas University in Madrid, and from 1992 to 1997 he was a member of the International Theological Commission.

Since 2004 he has been the general secretary of that commission. His works have greatly contributed to contemporary theological debates.

Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
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Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.
Quote: Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).

The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other [p. 144].

Yet by dying, he gave us life, that is the life of his resurrection.
Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God [p. 148-149]. End quote.
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God bless you Gorgias and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Gorgias]

Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.

Are you sure about that?

If Pope Francis would not believe Universal Salvation, he would not replace Cardinal Gerhard Müller with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria

Are you sure about that? By this logic, we would have to say “if Jesus didn’t believe it was proper for people to abandon Him, he would not have chosen Peter (who denied him) and Judas (who betrayed him).”

See how that logic doesn’t work?

 

[someone429]

I still ask the question because you still didn’t answer.
Do you have any view on in the light of my posts in this thread # 161, 162, on my posts # 163, 164?

I have read them. You seem to say that all events are foreordained by God. So, even if all human beings will be saved, there will be some fallen angels suffering forever in hell, which is foreordained by God. It seems that this also makes God cruel. How do you think about this?

Besides, on the idea that all human beings will be saved, I don’t have much research on this, but at least I know Pope John Paul II rejected it.