On the knees, On the tongue

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Greetings Glennonite,

I completely sympathize with your feelings, and I get so excited if I attend a parish that still has an altar rail and uses it. Have you attended an EF Mass celebrated with the blessing of the local Bishop, or do you have one in your area? I know many don’t unfortunately.

Kneeling to recieve is one reason why I have a strong preference for the EF, I can’t imagine recieving Holy Communion in the future any other way but kneeling.

I still wonder what the reasoning was behind taking away the altar rail in so many parishes. I think they are a great way to emphasize how special, sacred, and unique the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is.

The Mass is God the Son’s High Priestly ministry before God the Father occuring right there in front of us. We should do anything and everything we can to emphasize how great a privelage it is for us to be able to even witness it…
and WOW…we even get to participate in it! Deo Gratias!

~Josh
Thanks Josh, I guess the words: “thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven” are what have been causing a stirring in my soul lately. My (adult) Godson’s favorite response to me on many various points has become, “God understands why I do X Y Z, or don’t do A B C…He won’t hold it against me yadda, yadda…”

If it’s something that I wouldn’t do in heaven, then I shouldn’t do it on Earth; the Our Father is pretty clear. Heck, I don’t think I want to be the only guy in heaven who isn’t adoring God on my knees. :eek: I just consider my kneeling at Communion good practice for heaven. 🙂

Glennonite
 
IMHO:)

I don’t mean this to offend. Please don’t take it that way.

There is something fussy and self-centered about all this.

I am a Catholic who grew-up an Episcopalian. It was, and still is, the custom to receive the Sacrament kneeling at the altar rail, with the choice receiving in the hand, or on the tongue (or by intinction). Distributing the Eucharist at stations is still rare in the Episcopal Church, although not unheard of. In general, it is reserved for occasions when the church is very crowded, such as Midnight Mass or Easter Vigil. There is nothing especially Protestant about standing at Communion, or especially Catholic about knelling. The first time I ever received standing was at an Anglican monastery in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

(In my parish, communicants were not permitted to intinct the host on their own, but were asked to let the chalacist intinct it for them, and then place it on their tongues, although this stricture is uncommon.)

It is certainly not heretical to stand, or to receive the Host into one’s hand. Heresy has to do with doctrinal matters, such as denial of the humanity or divinity of Christ, etc.

I was also taught several postures and manual gestures that are no longer common in the Catholic Church. These include making the sign of the Cross at the the ends of the both the Gloria, and the Creed, and at the commemoration of the dead, and at the elevation of the Holy Sacrament, and at the Benedictus; and bowing at the words, “receive our prayer” and “worship” in the Gloria; and bowing at the Sanctus. (Horrible sentence, but I’ll let it stand.) I often still do some of these out of habit, but, mostly, I have unlearned them. I’ve also abandoned my affected pronunciations of hallow-ed in place of hallowed, tress-pesses instead trespasses, ah-men, rather than ae-men, except when in song. I do so out of a desire to show solidarity with my fellow parishioners.

In my mind, following the custom in one’s parish is the best practice. Calling attention to one’s personal ‘holiness’ is unseemly. We are instructed by Jesus not to make ostentatious displays of our piety. If kneeling helps you to properly express your awe and wonder at the mystery of the Sacrament, by all means do so; but if you are doing so to show everyone else how holy you are, you’d best refrain. I often, but not always, receive on the tongue, but it is more out of habit than anything else.

One personal observation: I used to frequently administer the chalice (and sometimes distribute Hosts) at the altar rail. When women wore broad brimmed hats, it was almost impossible to see where there mouths were. Because, in the Episcopal Church, chalicists are instructed NOT (as in NEVER) to hand the cup to communicants, this presented a true challenge, and often resulted in clanging the rim of the cup against their teeth, etc.

One other observation: It is more likely that diseases get spread by receiving on the tongue than in one’s hand.
 
What he did was genuflect when the person ahead was receiving and then he received on the tongue.
This is what I do most of the time. Unless…

If I feel the slightest tinge of pride, that I am genuflecting to show off or to seem more pious, if I sense this in myself at all, I will simply blend in with the crowd and not genuflect, but bow, and then just recieve on the tounge, making a concious effort to pass unnoticed.

So for me, the issue is not black and white. There are times when I am moved to be more humble, and times when I am moved to be more bold. It’s not black and white.

-Tim-
 
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

[90.] “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined”, with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms”.[176]

[91.] In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”.[177] Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

Puzzleannie: I often value your answers. In this case, why do you turn my words? I haven’t said that the Pope has mandated. The term “memo” comes across as condescending. I’m not stubborn (in this case) to ‘personal preference’, I’m responsive to prayerful discernment. I am asking for advice.

I am attentive to showing reverence to the Blessed Sacrament and want to receive in a manner that is unlike getting a movie ticket. In no other way, would anyone kneel when receiving anything. As I said, my early years at the Communion rail are affecting me today. This is not a display for anyone other than God. I would willingly stay after Mass to receive kneeling.

I am bothered by parishes that stow the Blessed Sacrament in a side “prayer room”. I know that for over a thousand years, kneeling and on the tongue was/is the preferred manner. The Pope does not have to mandate something before I follow him; but the “memo” is found in the Redemptionis Sacramentum link that I have included.

Folks, I am saddened by people at Mass who do not genuflect upon entering the pew or crossing before the Tabernacle. I see Eucharistic Ministers dispense the Sacrament while wearing football jerseys and bluejeans. At my church, people gather and talk freely before Mass as though they are just waiting for the “show” to start. The “band” continues to “warm-up” until just before Mass begins; all the while, scampering around the Sanctuary (you know, “the stage”). It is a true burden to try to prayerfully prepare for Mass before the Blessed Sacrament.

My Catholic faith is pulling me towards a reverence for the Eucharist that I cannot ignore.
Bottomline: What is so wrong about kneeling before the reception of my God?

Thanks to all, I am listening.

Glennonite
I don’t think anyone here said there was anything wrong with kneeling. You were given reasons to follow the norm established by your bishop along with reasons why you should do so–at least in the posts I have read.

Sunday morning before mass I was reading in St Faustina’s diary (I wish I had the book here to give you the reference) in many of the entries–Christ tells her how happy her obedience to her superiors makes him–even when they prevent her from doing things he wants her to do–basically telling her that in due time she will be allowed to do what he wants her to do. Christ seems to really stress obedience to her superiors–at least in the 2/3 of the book that I have read. I think this should be an exampe to us and give us something to think about (yes I realize this is a private revelation). Additionally, Christ told people to do as the pharisees commanded because they sat on the chair of Moses–just not to follow their poor example. In my opinion (which I am sure is not worth much) we owe obedience to our conference of bishops and our bishop in particular regarding these matters–as they are not contrary to the teaching of the Church. I say that as one who would like to see the communion rails come back, and the liturgy of the Eucharist said with the priests back to us–still I think that obedience to my bishop’s norms for the liturgy trumps my own personal preferences and desires–regardless of what “rights” I may have to disregard them. To disregard them undermines the bishops authority–which is not good for the Church. We should make our desires know to our bishops and we are free to find and attend mass at a parish where the mass is celebrated with the due reverence.

And while I am sympathetic to your complaints regarding attire and noise–I would point out that Christ took on human form and revealed himself to us–he sat and broke bread with us, walked with us and talked with us–no matter how we were dressed or the state of our soul (after all he came to call sinners–which we all are)–he comes to us all at the mass–at whatever point we are at in our faith walk–and that is different for all of us. So I don’t let others bother me–all I can do is set the best example I can by worshipping as reverently as I can and by befriending anyone I can at mass. It is by our loving example and by our loving of our neighbor that we can help restore the Church. Offer up this burden you feel.

I guess it all boils down to this: I would rather have the people there at mass casually attired and maybe a little noisy than having them at stay at home–at least when they are at mass they expose themselves to the Word and to grace and to the opportunity to have a deeper relationship with God, to having a deeper conversion experience which will more fully transform their lives and to worshipping with fellow catholics. They’re not going to get that at home watching football and they won’t get it at mass with me frowning at them or shushing them–so I guess I am just happy to see them at mass–after all I don’t know what’s in their heart.

Peace of Christ,
Mark
 
I believe our parish is where it is today because of the prayers of a core group of parishioners who have always been devoted to our Blessed Mother and to the Sacred Heart of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. It was exciting to see the fruits of our prayers and moving to hear the words spoken by some of our youth coming back from Denver after having been in the presence of John Paul II for World Youth Day. They were so fired up and eager to live their Catholic Faith. The Youth leader got permission to begin a Wednesday night Adoration and Benediction. But sadly with the addition of Wednesday Adoration with Evening Prayer, our monthly First Friday Adoration of Reparation ceased. I personally felt this was a mistake but I gladly welcomed the increased desire among the youth to participate in Eucharistic Adoration that up until that time was attended mostly by older parishioners. On one occassion I was speaking to one of the young ladies who had attended WYD. She was more bragging of the youth’s participation in the devotions and said, “We’ll show them that we are devout, too!” It came across as more of a slight towards the older devout people than as an appreciation of her increased devotion. At that time, the youth leader as well as some of the youth began to genuflect before receiving Communion, the some began to kneel. It was a little confusing for some of us to know just what we were supposed to do because people were showing several different signs of reverence for the reception of Holy Communion. Then finally the bishops decided that the posture for reception of Communion in the U.S. was standing and the sign of reverence to be shown was a bow of the head. This announcement was made at the same time that the changes were implemented from Redemptionis Sacramentum (correcting liturgical abuses). For a while, everyone in our parish began to receive Communion using the posture that was designated as the norm. I’m sure that it was humbling for some to do. But now we have a few that kneel and a few that genuflect before receiving Communion.
 
Thank you ANP1215. And especially thank you for taking the trouble to decipher my stroke infuenced gibberish!
haha, I didn’t have to decipher anything! Hope you like it here! Though your “part” of TX is a lot different than mine in a lot of ways! Probably a lot colder over there right now
 
haha, I didn’t have to decipher anything! Hope you like it here! Though your “part” of TX is a lot different than mine in a lot of ways! Probably a lot colder over there right now
Low in the morning is supposed to be 26! Brrr

But I got used to it living in a Franciscan Noviate outside of Springfield Il.

I had to leave for health reasons, and they were right, even though it was very painful having to leave, I still had the stroke.

Spring? is that near Houston?
 
Maybe I shouldn’t post here, but at my Lutheran church, everyone who is able kneels at the altar rail to receive Communion and about half receive the host on the tongue. We do sign ourselves after receiving Communion.
 
Low in the morning is supposed to be 26! Brrr

But I got used to it living in a Franciscan Noviate outside of Springfield Il.

I had to leave for health reasons, and they were right, even though it was very painful having to leave, I still had the stroke.

Spring? is that near Houston?
Our low today was 41, high of 63, going to be a very pretty day, thank the Lord (I work outside) !
I am sorry to hear of your health problems 😦
Yes, Spring is about 30 minutes or so northwest of downtown Houston. Where are you at? If you don’t wish to post you can PM me, or if you don’t want to share, you don’t have to!
 
To put it in different terms, kneeling is closer to the Pope’s practice and beliefs, and further from Protestentism’s practice and beliefs…which are heretical.
A physical act cannot be heretical…heresy is a mental denial of revealed truth made manifest in an unmistakeable mode of communication. Some MIGHT wish to signify their disagreement with Church teaching via a mode of behavior, but it does not mean that that mode is ontollogically heretical.

Also, you are quite incorrect in your blanket assertion about Protestant’s modes of receiving Holy Communion. In the Anabaptist tradition (Baptists, Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, Church of the Nazarene, etc.) and the Calvinist tradition (Presbyterian, Reformed Churches, etc.) the elements of the Lord’s Supper are passed to the assembly while they are seated. In the Anglican Tradition (which includes Methodists, Wesleyans, Episcopalians,etc.), the congregation actually go forward and kneel at a communion rail, where the elements are placed in their hands. I was raised Baptist, spent five years as an Episcopalian, and have visited almost all of the other main-line denominations’ services. Before I became a Roman Catholic, the only time I ever received communion standing was at our Episcopalian Diocesan annual conventions, where communion was indeed received in procession due to the number of people.

Further, the sui juris Churches of the East, in union with the Successor of Peter, almost all practice Communion in procession (because they employ intinction, Holy Communion is never in the hand, of course). To my knowledge, none of the faithful in the sui juris Churches, holding valid Apostolic roots, kneel to receive. Surely this is not “Protestantism’s practice and beliefs…which are heretical.”?
 
I don’t think anyone here said there was anything wrong with kneeling. You were given reasons to follow the norm established by your bishop along with reasons why you should do so–at least in the posts I have read.

Sunday morning before mass I was reading in St Faustina’s diary (I wish I had the book here to give you the reference) in many of the entries–Christ tells her how happy her obedience to her superiors makes him–even when they prevent her from doing things he wants her to do–basically telling her that in due time she will be allowed to do what he wants her to do. Christ seems to really stress obedience to her superiors–at least in the 2/3 of the book that I have read. I think this should be an exampe to us and give us something to think about (yes I realize this is a private revelation). Additionally, Christ told people to do as the pharisees commanded because they sat on the chair of Moses–just not to follow their poor example. In my opinion (which I am sure is not worth much) we owe obedience to our conference of bishops and our bishop in particular regarding these matters–as they are not contrary to the teaching of the Church. I say that as one who would like to see the communion rails come back, and the liturgy of the Eucharist said with the priests back to us–still I think that obedience to my bishop’s norms for the liturgy trumps my own personal preferences and desires–regardless of what “rights” I may have to disregard them. To disregard them undermines the bishops authority–which is not good for the Church. We should make our desires know to our bishops and we are free to find and attend mass at a parish where the mass is celebrated with the due reverence.

And while I am sympathetic to your complaints regarding attire and noise–I would point out that Christ took on human form and revealed himself to us–he sat and broke bread with us, walked with us and talked with us–no matter how we were dressed or the state of our soul (after all he came to call sinners–which we all are)–he comes to us all at the mass–at whatever point we are at in our faith walk–and that is different for all of us. So I don’t let others bother me–all I can do is set the best example I can by worshipping as reverently as I can and by befriending anyone I can at mass. It is by our loving example and by our loving of our neighbor that we can help restore the Church. Offer up this burden you feel.

I guess it all boils down to this: I would rather have the people there at mass casually attired and maybe a little noisy than having them at stay at home–at least when they are at mass they expose themselves to the Word and to grace and to the opportunity to have a deeper relationship with God, to having a deeper conversion experience which will more fully transform their lives and to worshipping with fellow catholics. They’re not going to get that at home watching football and they won’t get it at mass with me frowning at them or shushing them–so I guess I am just happy to see them at mass–after all I don’t know what’s in their heart.

Peace of Christ,
Mark
LETTER DOMINICAE CENAE 11 makes it clear that the church teaches that COTT and kneeling is ALWAYS okay by the church regardless of the decision your bishop(s) since COTT and kneeling is alway allowed i don’t see the usefullness of the dairy or the teaching mentioned above. The church teach that the mass should go on solemly so i don’t think the above abuses should be allowed unchecked because because some other refuse to come to mass. Peace
 
I In my opinion (which I am sure is not worth much) we owe obedience to our conference of bishops and our bishop in particular regarding these matters–as they are not contrary to the teaching of the Church.
And Mark, as several have pointed out, there is no disobedience involved when someone kneels to receive Holy Communion.

This was true under the prior GIRM and most especially true under the revised GIRM.

Here is the current GIRM
The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling (Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Instruction, Redemptionis Sacramentum, March 25, 2004, no. 91).
The clarification was to make the US GIRM adaptions more consistent with the intent and directive from Rome.
 
I don’t think anyone here said there was anything wrong with kneeling. You were given reasons to follow the norm established by your bishop along with reasons why you should do so–at least in the posts I have read.

Sunday morning before mass I was reading in St Faustina’s diary (I wish I had the book here to give you the reference) in many of the entries–Christ tells her how happy her obedience to her superiors makes him–even when they prevent her from doing things he wants her to do–basically telling her that in due time she will be allowed to do what he wants her to do. Christ seems to really stress obedience to her superiors–at least in the 2/3 of the book that I have read. I think this should be an exampe to us and give us something to think about (yes I realize this is a private revelation). Additionally, Christ told people to do as the pharisees commanded because they sat on the chair of Moses–just not to follow their poor example. In my opinion (which I am sure is not worth much) we owe obedience to our conference of bishops and our bishop in particular regarding these matters–as they are not contrary to the teaching of the Church. I say that as one who would like to see the communion rails come back, and the liturgy of the Eucharist said with the priests back to us–still I think that obedience to my bishop’s norms for the liturgy trumps my own personal preferences and desires–regardless of what “rights” I may have to disregard them. To disregard them undermines the bishops authority–which is not good for the Church. We should make our desires know to our bishops and we are free to find and attend mass at a parish where the mass is celebrated with the due reverence.

And while I am sympathetic to your complaints regarding attire and noise–I would point out that Christ took on human form and revealed himself to us–he sat and broke bread with us, walked with us and talked with us–no matter how we were dressed or the state of our soul (after all he came to call sinners–which we all are)–he comes to us all at the mass–at whatever point we are at in our faith walk–and that is different for all of us. So I don’t let others bother me–all I can do is set the best example I can by worshipping as reverently as I can and by befriending anyone I can at mass. It is by our loving example and by our loving of our neighbor that we can help restore the Church. Offer up this burden you feel.

I guess it all boils down to this: I would rather have the people there at mass casually attired and maybe a little noisy than having them at stay at home–at least when they are at mass they expose themselves to the Word and to grace and to the opportunity to have a deeper relationship with God, to having a deeper conversion experience which will more fully transform their lives and to worshipping with fellow catholics. They’re not going to get that at home watching football and they won’t get it at mass with me frowning at them or shushing them–so I guess I am just happy to see them at mass–after all I don’t know what’s in their heart.

Peace of Christ,
Mark
Good post with much food for thought.
 
One thing to note, per the revised GIRM, the Bishops of the US place the decision on posture freely on the recipent.

So if one kneels to recieve, one IS following the directives of the US Bishops as approved by ROme.
Good stuff! Thanks for that information. It is sad to see people getting bullied for their personal piety as if all personal piety has no place in public liturgy. There is a beauty to uniformity, but there is also a beauty in individuals doing what they feel called to do to get more from assisting at Holy Mass. Unless a priest, as pastor of his parish, makes known to that person that he does not approve (whether it is allowed or not), that should be humbly respected [at that church]. Carry on at any other church.
 
It is sad to see people getting bullied for their personal piety as if all personal piety has no place in public liturgy.
I’m not sure that I understand who you are referring to here when you speak in the present tense.
 
Let’s get the facts straight. The Holy See delegates to the USCCB the authority to establish norms. The USCCB has done so; the norm in the U.S. is standing. In the previous edition of the GIRM, a kneeling communicant was not to be denied communion, but was to be catechized on the reason for the norm. The USCCB, in the new GIRM (2011) has removed the requirement for catechesis. In other words, in the U.S., standing is the norm and kneeling is allowed. Kneeling is not discouraged, it is not lesser, it is not frowned upon, it is not a form of disobedience. “Norm” does not mean mandatory. “Norm” does not mean that an action in exception is in disobedience.

I would suggest that you discern whether or not to kneel based on where you think the Lord is leading you. Do His will for you. The Pope doesn’t require kneeling of Catholics worldwide. If you read his book, he even says that CITH is OK, and that he requires people receiving from him to receive kneeling and on the tongue because people were taking souvenirs. So don’t kneel to receive because you think that’s what the Pope wants. Kneel to receive because that’s how you want to show reverence to our Eucharistic Lord.

I receive kneeling and on the tongue. I was the first at my parish, and the only one for a few months. Now, there are five or six at daily Mass, and more sometimes at Sunday Mass. I’ve had many people come up and comment, all positive, all saying “I wish I had good enough knees to do that,” or “I’m going to start doing that.” Sometimes people need someone else to show them that it’s OK.

I started out asking my priest about it, seeking his advice. He thought it was wonderful that someone would want to show that much reverence, but asked me to go to the back of the line, so as to not trip anybody up. I did so, at the start. But now, everyone is so used to me, I just go when I go. If someone unknown to me is behind me in line, I whisper to them “I’m going to kneel, don’t trip.” I’ve never had an issue, and our communion line set up is very cramped and close.

I listened to an interview with Cardinal Arinze, who said something like, “If we really believed that was Jesus we were receiving, we’d crawl up the aisle on our belly.” I thought and prayed hard about that and started receiving kneeling.

Finally, you might draw attention. So what? The people who fret over you kneeling will find something else to fuss about if not that. They’ll worry about somebody’s tight shirt, or lack of a profound bow, or work clothing, or crying kids. Someone who would get all in a twist about you kneeling needs to focus more on the Lord and less on the congregation.
👍 Great answer.
 
I am not afraid of the possible negative response, but do not want to “just go along” with the congregation in a practice that is not in line with the Holy Father’s wishes.

If you watch any of the televised Masses from St. Peter’s in Rome, it will be quite evident that most of the people do not receive in the manner you described - only those receiving from the Pope do it that way. It sounds like you’ve been misinformed.
 
After much thought and prayer, I’ve decided to follow our Pope’s example and wish to show my adoration of the Blessed Sacrament by receiving on my knees and on my tongue. My whole life, I’ve received, reverently in my hands (although when I was 8-13 years old, I definately used the Communion rail).

If I do bend knee and open my mouth to receive Holy Communion next Sunday, I will be the only one at my parish to do so. I don’t want to cause a problem. What should be my response if I am denied the Eucharist? There my not be an issue here, but what if there is? I have heard of some, in some parishes, who were denied and even chastized on the spot.

I am not afraid of the possible negative response, but do not want to “just go along” with the congregation in a practice that is not in line with the Holy Father’s wishes.

Am I alone in this thinking?

Thanks,
forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8627647#
Glennonite
Wow, after reading through a lot of these posts, I am surprised at the answers. It seems as if some might be a little fearful of the return of kneeling and of altar rails.

After reading this:
“The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.” from USSCB, I think you should speak with your priest. Ask him if he is okay with it.

There is a family of about 3 or 4 at our parish that all receive kneeling and on the tongue. They always sit in the front pew, where there are not any kneelers but they are always on their knees. Also, in the same area are elderly and crippled who can’t do either. They can not stand in line or kneel, so father, before distributing to anyone else, comes down and distributes communion to all of them, those on their knees and those in the pews and wheelchair. So, if you speak to him and explain to him how strong you are feeling toward wanting to kneel he may just be okay with it and provide a way that is not a disruption.

I do think also that people are going to need to start being aware of more and more people wanting to show more reverence at mass and return to more traditional ways as that seems to be a happening.

Sometimes it just takes one person. Last year I attended a Catholic woman’s conference and it was at a big conference center. During the conference Mass was held. There were not any kneelers or carpets just a cement floor on a slant, of course, to kneel on during the consecration. The priest said because of the concrete we could all sit during the consecration. Well, in my row was a little elderly nun who stayed on her knees. At first people all began sitting until they witnessed her reverence and yes seeing her others all began getting on their knees. I know there would be some who physically could not do that but her continued reverence caused others to show more reverence. There may be others who would like to kneel as you do. I would do what your priests instructs you to do. If he doesn’t want you to then maybe go where you can kneel or maybe ask about an early morning mass when it is not so crowded. I am starting to see more and more people genuflect before communion. Maybe that is an option.

Personally, I would love to see the communion rails return. I am not really sure why they removed them. I was very young when they did.
 
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