On the knees, On the tongue

[nickybr38]

After much thought and prayer, I’ve decided to follow our Pope’s example and wish to show my adoration of the Blessed Sacrament by receiving on my knees and on my tongue. My whole life, I’ve received, reverently in my hands (although when I was 8-13 years old, I definately used the Communion rail).

If I do bend knee and open my mouth to receive Holy Communion next Sunday, I will be the only one at my parish to do so. I don’t want to cause a problem. What should be my response if I am denied the Eucharist? There my not be an issue here, but what if there is? I have heard of some, in some parishes, who were denied and even chastized on the spot.

I am not afraid of the possible negative response, but do not want to “just go along” with the congregation in a practice that is not in line with the Holy Father’s wishes.

Am I alone in this thinking?

Thanks,

Glennonite

I will repeat what others have said. Talk to your priest first. Don’t catch him off guard. He is your ‘apostle’, respect him by speaking to him about it before you do it.

The Holy Father is our ‘Peter’ but your Father is the priest that has been entrusted with your care. Trust him and listen to whatever advice he gives.

 

[anp1215]

Wow, after reading through a lot of these posts, I am surprised at the answers. It seems as if some might be a little fearful of the return of kneeling and of altar rails.

After reading this:
“The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.” from USSCB, I think you should speak with your priest. Ask him if he is okay with it.

There is a family of about 3 or 4 at our parish that all receive kneeling and on the tongue. They always sit in the front pew, where there are not any kneelers but they are always on their knees. Also, in the same area are elderly and crippled who can’t do either. They can not stand in line or kneel, so father, before distributing to anyone else, comes down and distributes communion to all of them, those on their knees and those in the pews and wheelchair. So, if you speak to him and explain to him how strong you are feeling toward wanting to kneel he may just be okay with it and provide a way that is not a disruption.

I do think also that people are going to need to start being aware of more and more people wanting to show more reverence at mass and return to more traditional ways as that seems to be a happening.

Sometimes it just takes one person. Last year I attended a Catholic woman’s conference and it was at a big conference center. During the conference Mass was held. There were not any kneelers or carpets just a cement floor on a slant, of course, to kneel on during the consecration. The priest said because of the concrete we could all sit during the consecration. Well, in my row was a little elderly nun who stayed on her knees. At first people all began sitting until they witnessed her reverence and yes seeing her others all began getting on their knees. I know there would be some who physically could not do that but her continued reverence caused others to show more reverence. There may be others who would like to kneel as you do. I would do what your priests instructs you to do. If he doesn’t want you to then maybe go where you can kneel or maybe ask about an early morning mass when it is not so crowded. I am starting to see more and more people genuflect before communion. Maybe that is an option.

Personally, I would love to see the communion rails return. I am not really sure why they removed them. I was very young when they did.

Just to let you know, the updated GIRM states that “The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling”
which in my opinion is better, as it leaves the choice of posture to the communicant, with no mention of pastoral counseling.

This is how I think it should be, and I do not kneel to receive. I just think that those who wish to should be able to.

 

[LilHomemaker]

I am bothered by parishes that stow the Blessed Sacrament in a side “prayer room”.

This bothers me too. One parish in our area, the sanctuary is full of plants and Jesus is off over to the side.

Folks, I am saddened by people at Mass who do not genuflect upon entering the pew or crossing before the Tabernacle. I see Eucharistic Ministers dispense the Sacrament while wearing football jerseys and bluejeans. At my church, people gather and talk freely before Mass as though they are just waiting for the “show” to start. The “band” continues to “warm-up” until just before Mass begins; all the while, scampering around the Sanctuary (you know, “the stage”). It is a true burden to try to prayerfully prepare for Mass before the Blessed Sacrament.
Glennonite

These things bother me too, though I try to close my eyes and not think about what others are doing. I can’t be their judge but I am surprised that nodding of head or bowing has replaced genuflecting. And it is hard if you are trying to pray before or after mass and people are talking loudly and not being considerate of people praying. Sometimes during the week after mass there are many people that stay and pray and on occasion there will be a couple of people that will not be considerate of that and stay in the church and visit and laugh, loudly, making it difficult for prayer. Inside the Catholic Churches, where the Eucharist is present are the most sacred places on earth and should be treated as such.

More reasons we need to pray for the Catholic Church and her faithful.

 

[LilHomemaker]

Just to let you know, the updated GIRM states that “The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling”
which in my opinion is better, as it leaves the choice of posture to the communicant, with no mention of pastoral counseling.

This is how I think it should be, and I do not kneel to receive. I just think that those who wish to should be able to.

Thanks for the update and if that is the case then I totally agree. If one wants to receive our Lord kneeling then they certainly should be able to do so without any problems but then that leaves me confused as why everyone is saying he is disobeying the bishops?

Looks to me like it is no problem at all.

I found this on Father Z’s website.

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/06/what-does-girm-160-for-the-usa-really-say/

If I saw someone kneeling they would be an inspiration to me and help remind me where I am and to be more reverent.

 

[MarkInOregon]

And Mark, as several have pointed out, there is no disobedience involved when someone kneels to receive Holy Communion.

This was true under the prior GIRM and most especially true under the revised GIRM.

Here is the current GIRM

The clarification was to make the US GIRM adaptions more consistent with the intent and directive from Rome.

I have read the GIRM and I know what it says and as I stated I am sympathetic to the OP and while you are correct in that we have the right to kneel and should not be refused Holy Communion for kneeling to receive (I have never denied that)–when we chose to exercise that right–that doesn’t necessarily mean we are not disobedient. I still consider it disobedient to my Bishop to do something contrary to what he has asked me to do (stand in this case)–even though I am within my rights to disregard his wishes. Disobedience is “refusal or neglect to obey”. You can dress it up however you want and claim your right–that doesn’t make you obedient–it just means you can not be disiplined for refusing to follow your Bishops directive.

I am not arguing about which way is better to receive–personally I think kneeling at an alter rail–I am talking about the message we send when our Bishop asks us to stand and we say no–we have the right to kneel and I am exercising that right and you can’t stop me–and then say that because we have the “right” its not disobedient–I disagree. The message you send to your fellow parishioners in not one of the Eucharist is Holy but one that says look at my piety and I know better than the rest (regardless of your intent and I know that this is not the intent of those who kneel). Only when the Church starts stressing from the pulpit the real presence, stressing the need for confession and being in a state of grace to receive, stressing the need for silence in the sanctuary, returning tabernacles to a place behind the alter, and yes having us all kneel to receive–will the rank and file parishioner get that message–that the Eucharist is Holy and that Christ is truly present in it. And I guess that’s my desire–and I don’t think the best way to acheive that is by my kneeling to receive in my local parish. Christ knows what is in my heart when I receive whether I am standing or kneeling.

I am sure you will disagree and that you probably equate having the right to do something with obedience–I don’t.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[LilHomemaker]

I think this post is stirring up something in everyone and making us all question our reverence before the Eucharist.

Maybe making us reflect what should we be like when going to the Eucharist:angel1:

Not a bad thing to do.

 

[zab]

Thanks for the update and if that is the case then I totally agree. If one wants to receive our Lord kneeling then they certainly should be able to do so without any problems but then that leaves me confused as why everyone is saying he is disobeying the bishops?

Looks to me like it is no problem at all.

I found this on Father Z’s website.

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/06/what-does-girm-160-for-the-usa-really-say/

If I saw someone kneeling they would be an inspiration to me and help remind me where I am and to be more reverent.

It has never been said nor implied that if one kneels to receive Communion that they are disobeying the bishops. It seems that a few have taken the posts of some who have every reason to defend the posture of standing to mean that if one does not follow the posture given that they are being disobedient. hmmm:Well, if they think they are being obedient to the bishops setting the posture as standing then that must mean that those who kneel are being disobedient) People here have every reason to defend the posture that they use given the OP’s statement. One could come across with the understanding that to continue to stand would be going along with what the congregation is doing* “in a practice that is not in line with the Holy Father’s wishes.”
*

 

[Brendan]

I I still consider it disobedient to my Bishop to do something contrary to what he has asked me to do (stand in this case)–even though I am within my rights to disregard his wishes. Disobedience is “refusal or neglect to obey”. You can dress it up however you want and claim your right–that doesn’t make you obedient–it just means you can not be disiplined for refusing to follow your Bishops directive.

Aquinas defined the Virtue of Obedience as the virtue by which one conforms their will to the will of the one who has the authority.

In the case we are discussing, the authority that Rome has given is to the individual member of the faithful. Hence that is why there is no disobedience.

Furthermore, it would then fall to the bishop to be obedient to to the one who has the authority in this matter, namely the individual faithful.

I am sure you will disagree and that you probably equate having the right to do something with obedience–I don’t.

I do not assert that a right to do something equates with obedience, rather I follow St. Thomas Aquinas and recognize what Obedience is it terms of Catholic Moral Theology, and were Rome has placed, not the right, but the authority.

If we desire our bishops to be virtuous, (Obedience is a virtue), it would follow that we should give them the opportunity to conform their wills to the one who has authority in that matter.

You do desire to have a virtuous bishop, do you not?

 

[zab]

Aquinas defined the Virtue of Obedience as the virtue by which one conforms their will to the will of the one who has the authority.

In the case we are discussing, the authority that Rome has given is to the individual member of the faithful. Hence that is why there is no disobedience.

Furthermore, it would then fall to the bishop to be obedient to to the one who has the authority in this matter, namely the individual faithful.

So why not respect the decision of the individual faithful who does what his bishop asks?

 

[altarboi20]

I would follow the Holy Father on this subject and not the USCCB.
It shows much more respect to acknowledge him as our Lord by kneeling and receiving him on our tongue and not touching what only consecrated hands should touch.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I would follow the Holy Father on this subject and not the USCCB.
It shows much more respect to acknowledge him as our Lord by kneeling and receiving him on our tongue and not touching what only consecrated hands should touch.

Dear friend,

in a sane world this would make a lot of sense. For centuries this is how people received communion in the Latin rite. However, for expressing this opinion these days you can get ripped apart by people who will use all sorts of arguments to prove something contrary to this honourable practice and in doing so will demonstrate a variety of resons behind their position. For wanting to show greater reverence to our Lord you will be called prideful and disobedient. Perhaps this is something to offer up and pray for a renewal in the church.

 

[Brendan]

So why not respect the decision of the individual faithful who does what his bishop asks?

I do respect such decisions, as I would expect them to respect mine. If you think that I have not respected such a decision on the part of a member of the faithful, could you quote me exactly and we can discuss the point further.

Rather, I was responding to Mark’s question in regards to obedience

You can dress it up however you want and claim your right–that doesn’t make you obedient–it just means you can not be disiplined for refusing to follow your Bishops directive.

I was pointing out that the virtue of obedience really only enters into the picture in regards to the bishop’s own response to the authority given by Rome to the individual member of the faithful.

You can see my full support for the Virtue of Obedience in another thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8638302#post8638302

One would expect that a bishop would show obedience when it is due to others, just as they would expect obedience where it is due to them.

Anything less would be hypocracy, which is unbecoming in anyone, least of all a bishop.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Aquinas defined the Virtue of Obedience as the virtue by which one conforms their will to the will of the one who has the authority.

In the case we are discussing, the authority that Rome has given is to the individual member of the faithful. Hence that is why there is no disobedience.

Furthermore, it would then fall to the bishop to be obedient to to the one who has the authority in this matter, namely the individual faithful.

I do not assert that a right to do something equates with obedience, rather I follow St. Thomas Aquinas and recognize what Obedience is it terms of Catholic Moral Theology, and were Rome has placed, not the right, but the authority.

If we desire our bishops to be virtuous, (Obedience is a virtue), it would follow that we should give them the opportunity to conform their wills to the one who has authority in that matter.

You do desire to have a virtuous bishop, do you not?

Brendan,

First I have not questioned yours or anyones reverence or intent so why do you question what kind of bishop I desire? Have I given any indication that I do not desire a faithful and virtuous bishop? I don’t think that I have.

Second I don’t think the GIRM gives authority to us as individuals–it does not bestow upon us some kind of authority from Rome. The GIRM sets out what is permissible and not permissible–i.e 21. Hence this instruction aims both to offer general lines for suitable ordering of the celebration of the Eucharist and to explain the rules by which individual forms of celebration may be arranged…

Third if the GIRM gives authority to anyone it is to the bishops and not to us for example:

1. From #22 For the Diocesan Bishop, the prime steward of the mysteries of God in the particular Church entrusted to his care, is the moderator, promoter, and guardian of the whole of liturgical life.
2. From #386 However, in order that such a celebration may correspond all the more fully to the norms and the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy, certain further adaptations are set out in this Instruction and in the Order of the Mass and entrusted to the judgment either of the Diocesan Bishop or of the Conference of Bishops.

I don’t think it is the individual faithful who have authority in this matter – at least as I read the GIRM. If we have been given anything it is descretion–in this one area but in my mind that doesn’t equate to “authority” as you appear to be using it.

Fourth the GIRM makes the point repeatedly regarding the “communitarian” character of the mass (#34):

From #42 Attention must therefore be paid to what is determined by this Ggeneral Instruction and by the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than the private inclination or arbitrary choice. A common bodily posture, to be observed by all those taking part, is a sign of unity of the members of the Christian community gathered together for the Sacred Liturgy, for it expresses the intentions and spiritual attitude of the participants and also fosters them.

From #?? For the sake of uniformity of gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the missal.

From #95 In the celebration of Mass the faithful form a Holy People…They should, moreover, take care to show this by their deep religous sense and their charity toward brothers and sisters who participate with them in the same celebration. They are consequently to avoid any appearance of singularity or division, keeping in mind that they have only one Father in heaven and that hence are all brothers or sisters one to the other.

From #96 Moreover, they are to form one body, whether in hearing the Word of God, or in taking part in the prayers and in the singing, or above all by the common offering of the Sacrifice and by participating together at the Lord’s table. This unity is beautifully apparent from the gestures and bodily postures observed together by the faithful.

It is not the bishops job to conform his will to ours–he is in a postition of authority over us. It is his job and duty to allow us to kneel if we so chose without cesure. It may be that we are using “authority” in a different sense and as a result I reject your idea that the GIRM gives us “authority” in this matter and that the bishop needs to conform his will to us the individual faithful. He may well have pastoral reasons that we don’t understand for his decisions and directions the GIRM simply gives us the right (or authority if you so desire) in this one instance to disregard whatever those might be in the exercise of our own understanding and desires–which we believe are more important than and superior to the understanding and desires of the bishops.

Finally I would desire not only Holy and virtuous bishops but priests and lay faithful as well–as I am sure you do also.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[altarboi20]

Dear friend,

in a sane world this would make a lot of sense. For centuries this is how people received communion in the Latin rite. However, for expressing this opinion these days you can get ripped apart by people who will use all sorts of arguments to prove something contrary to this honourable practice and in doing so will demonstrate a variety of resons behind their position. For wanting to show greater reverence to our Lord you will be called prideful and disobedient. Perhaps this is something to offer up and pray for a renewal in the church.

Its crazy isn’t it? People kneel during adoration but not to receive the Lord in adoration.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan,

First I have not questioned yours or anyones reverence or intent .

It was a retorical question to reinforce the universal desire for virtous bishops.

Second I don’t think the GIRM gives authority to us as individuals–it does not bestow upon us some kind of authority from Rome.

Here you are incorrect. The GIRM gives to us the authority to decide if the particular norm of standing applies to us.

The GIRM sets out what is permissible and not permissible–i

I have a question for you

GIRM 43 states the following

GIRM 43 … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason… Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

Would you state that Rome is not giving the local bishop any authority to set posture after the Agnus Dei; rather, that Rome is simply informing the bishop what is permissable or not permissable.

What

Third if the GIRM gives authority to anyone it is to the bishops and not to us for example:

From #42 …A common bodily posture, to be observed by all those taking part, is a sign of unity of the members of the Christian community gathered together for the Sacred Liturgy, for it expresses the intentions and spiritual attitude of the participants and also fosters them.

Interesting that you mention that. When the GIRM came out, there were several questions by the US Bishops about how ridgedly #42 should be interpreted to be.

Cardinal Arinze, then Prefect of the CDWDS answered the bishops question thusly

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

Prot. N. 855/03/L):

So we can see what Rome’s intent was when it issued #43

From #?? For the sake of uniformity of gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the missal.

Mark, I would like your persective on this. Note the bolded part. Do you feel that give a Deacon, lay minister or priest the authority to command postures that are contrary, or outside of the Missal?

I

t is not the bishops job to conform his will to ours–he is in a postition of authority over us. It is his job and duty to allow us to kneel if we so chose without cesure. It may be that we are using “authority” in a different sense and as a result I reject your idea that the GIRM gives us “authority” in this matter

OK, let’s examine the concept of authority.

I pulled out my copy of the “Modern Catholic Dictionary” by Servant of God Fr. John Hardon, S.J.

It defines authority as

“The right of society or it elements to command cooperation in in the attainment of an end. Utlimately, all authority comes from God, but in different ways, depending on the society”

Who ‘Authority’ to determine what any individual member of the faithful’s posture when recieving Holy Communion. Which element of society? Who exactly can 'command cooperation"

Do you believe that the Authority resides in the bishop, but he is prevented from excercising this authority because of Rome?

If so, that would not seem to meet the definition used by Fr. Hardon.

If I chose to kneel to recieve Holy Communion, would I be able to “command cooperation” on the part of the minister in this method. Would the priest be compelled to comply with my request?

If so, that DOES seem to meet the definition of authority, and thus the Angelic Doctor’s definition of obedience would apply.

Again, on the question of ‘authority’?

Can a right truely exist without the companion authority? If one is given the right to make a decision, one would, of necessity, also be given the authority to make that decision. If one has the right to act on this authority, and have others legitimately compelled to assist, can authority be said to be lacking.

In the case of posture for Holy Communion, who then can be said to have this authority? Who did Rome grant that authority to?

and that the bishop needs to conform his will to us the individual faithful. pastoral reasons that we don’t understand for his decisions and directions the GIRM simply gives us the right (or authority if you so desire) in this one instance to disregard whatever those might be in the exercise of our own understanding and desires–which we believe are more important than and superior to the understanding and desires of the bishops.

And whose decision would it be to make, I would claim that it would be Rome’s to decide if the authority it grants to local bishops should extend to the realm of posture during reception of Holy Communion.

Finally I would desire not only Holy and virtuous bishops but priests and lay faithful as well–as I am sure you do also.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

I most certainly do, that is why I seek to see all obey authority whereever Rome grants it.

 

[Glennonite]

Its crazy isn’t it? People kneel during adoration but not to receive the Lord in adoration.

Thanks; that really expressed my sentiments exactly, and succinctly as well.

And well-said to Contra Mundum.

Glennonite

 

[Glennonite]

Thanks for the update and if that is the case then I totally agree. If one wants to receive our Lord kneeling then they certainly should be able to do so without any problems but then that leaves me confused as why everyone is saying he is disobeying the bishops?

Looks to me like it is no problem at all.

I found this on Father Z’s website.

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/06/what-does-girm-160-for-the-usa-really-say/

If I saw someone kneeling they would be an inspiration to me and help remind me where I am and to be more reverent.

I can’t tell you how much your web-link made me smile. Thanks for your sentiments as well.

Glennonite

 

[LilHomemaker]

I can’t tell you how much your web-link made me smile. Thanks for your sentiments as well.

Glennonite

You’re welcome.

Sue

 

[Rina_Badal]

Peace be with you.
Interesting topic! We also discussed it on another thread, ‘Vatican call to formalise Communion ritual’, of course the title has to be misleading, it’s News
I have started to receive Holy Communion on my knees, and definitely on my tongue, a few months ago, on the Mass of ‘re-consecration’ of our archdiocese to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It is a unique experience.
I do encourage you Glennonite since it’s out of your increasing reverence to the Son of God, not a matter of show off or confusing the faithful as some might think. Just keep focused on why you are doing this. I agree that letting the priest in your Parish know of your decision is quite helpful!
I remember John Paul II words to the youth: ‘Do not be afraid…’. In my opinion, let us not be afraid Glennonite to take that one more step in our journey to holiness, for that’s how I see kneeling to receive the Saviour.
It’s clear now that there is no question of disobedience, for those in USA. Thank you Thomas Francis, Anp1215, Brendan and those who referred to USCCB - Prayer and Worship - Roman Missal - GIRM - Chp. IV: The Different Forms of Celebrating Mass - Subtitle: The Liturgy of the Eucharist.
I think all of us who stand or kneel can join and pray that more and more Catholics all over the world may start to feel and show more and more reverence to the Blessed Sacrament.

Peace,
Rina

PS. I felt sad to read your posts on this 1Ke, and to disagree with you JRKH.

 

[Glennonite]

Peace be with you.
Interesting topic! We also discussed it on another thread, ‘Vatican call to formalise Communion ritual’, of course the title has to be misleading, it’s News
I have started to receive Holy Communion on my knees, and definitely on my tongue, a few months ago, on the Mass of ‘re-consecration’ of our archdiocese to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It is a unique experience.
I do encourage you Glennonite since it’s out of your increasing reverence to the Son of God, not a matter of show off or confusing the faithful as some might think. Just keep focused on why you are doing this. I agree that letting the priest in your Parish know of your decision is quite helpful!
I remember John Paul II words to the youth: ‘Do not be afraid…’. In my opinion, let us not be afraid Glennonite to take that one more step in our journey to holiness, for that’s how I see kneeling to receive the Saviour.
It’s clear now that there is no question of disobedience, for those in USA. Thank you Thomas Francis, Anp1215, Brendan and those who referred to USCCB - Prayer and Worship - Roman Missal - GIRM - Chp. IV: The Different Forms of Celebrating Mass - Subtitle: The Liturgy of the Eucharist.
I think all of us who stand or kneel can join and pray that more and more Catholics all over the world may start to feel and show more and more reverence to the Blessed Sacrament.

Peace,
Rina

PS. I felt sad to read your posts on this 1Ke, and to disagree with you JRKH.

Thank you Rina; I appriciate the encouragment. I’ve received twice now on my knee (L) and on the tongue. Absolutely no problems for anyone at Mass; the planets are still orbiting.

The perspective of looking up as the Host is placed on my tongue from above…is striking. It seems so appropriate, spiritually-oriented. I feel the familiar sense of when I was 11 years old at the communion rail. My old training to not allow the Host to touch my teeth also resurfaced unexpectedly.

This is a good thing; I encourage all to explore this posture at least once (or again, if they remember the sixties).

What’s the upcoming media blitz: “Catholics, Come Home.”?

Glennonite