On the Necessity of Proving Things

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Musings…

The teapot story was never that good to begin with, much less that it should be repeated, and more than once, by Dawkins. But Dawkins is a dogmatist if there ever was one. He is a militant dogmatist at that. There are two kinds of people in the world, as Chesterton observed, the conscious dogmatists and the unconscious dogmatists. He said, “I have always found myself that the unconscious dogmatists were by far the most dogmatic.”

In the matter of God and His existence, its just a matter of which dogma one adheres to: theism or atheism. The atheist, in a fit of self-contradiction, will decry the dogmatism of the religionists. But dogmatism is not, in itself, some kind of evil. Cardinal Newman once noted that “What is invidiously called dogmatism and system, in one shape or the other, in one degree or another, is necessary to the human mind.”

Extreme Darwinism is a dogma. And as Stephen J. Gould admitted, “We taught catechism.” Of course, teaching catechism has no place in science, but there is an ideology grafted onto Darwinism that makes it more than just science.

Atheism is dogmatic in the religious sense. It is grounded in a type of faith. Jacques Maritain once said, “Absolute atheism starts in an act of faith in reverse gear and is a full-blown religious commitment. Here we have the first internal inconsistency of contemporary atheism: it proclaims that all religion must vanish away, and it is itself a religious phenomenon.”

Russell’s teapot story is motivated by his prejudice against Christianity. One does not find, or, at least I did not find any compelling arguments against Christianity in Russell’s book “Why I Am Not a Christian.” Perhaps the problem was that Russell’s personal life, a rather promiscuous one, was not consistent with orthodox religious teachings, or the natural moral law. I don’t know. But it is worth noting that Russell almost despaired of the survival of the human race as he reflected on the aftermath of WW II. This is understandable with the rise of the total state during the 20th century; the atrocities committed by Hitler, Stalin, Japan, et al., and the U.S. The U.S. frequently violated just war doctrine with its barbaric fire bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, for example. What impacted Russell the most, I believe, was the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This leads to my point that Russell finally concluded that the only thing that could save civilization is “Christian charity”. Russell’s conclusion shocked many people.

Russell’s teapot is not worth much time. Instead, one needs to consider the historical evidence for the truth of Christianity. Also, just in regard to the existence of God, or a supreme being, there are the classical philosophical demonstrations from ancient Greece, which were taken up by Aquinas. Russell was never able to provide an adequate refutation of these philosophical proofs. Regarding the existence of God classical philosophy has the philosophical proofs. And atheists have been unable to formulate adequate counter-arguments to the five-ways demonstration.

When all is said and done, the theists have the philosophical demonstrations, while atheists only have a cute little teapot story to pass on to future generations.

However, as Jay Leno noted, atheists are not very good at passing on their beliefs to the younger generation. There was an atheist who married a Jehovah Witness. When their child was grown he went about knocking on doors, but he did not know why.
 
First, you show that you do not understand the nature of scientific knowledge, now you show that you know nothing whatsoever about theistic evolution.

The correct view is that when God creates he gives to beings their own efficacy. The efficacy that created things possess of themselves does not preclude God’s efficacy working in created beings.

Your personal, unsupported opinion denies to created things the efficacy that God has given them. Hence, your position remains untenable from a Catholic perspective.
The efficacy of created things does not include the power of nothingness to originate matter,or the power of environmental factors,adaptational needs and mutations to originate living organisms,which is how science explains the origins of things. Matter is created by the power of God,and living organisms are created by the power of God working upon matter (as in the act of reproduction or conception). Because science ignores knowledge of the power of God in nature,it attributes to “mechanisms” what is actually the power of God. Science invents mechanisms of the gaps.
 
you miss the point. the point is that it is not down to people to disprove a idea, but rather down to those who believe to prove it. of course saying there is a teapot floating in space is absurd, and you would not believe me unless i put forward solid, undeniable proof for its existance
The proof for the existence of a Creator is found in observation of the created world. Only an omnipotent being could make the physical world come into existence,because of the act of physical matter coming into existence requires all power. The proof for the divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ,and for the divine origin if the Catholic Church,is found in the saints,who showed love,mercy,forgiveness and perseverance to an extent that would not be possible if they were motivated by natural factors,and would be possible only if what the Church says about Jesus Christ were true – that he is divine,is resurrected,and pours forth his Spirit to those who believe in him,so that they will persevere in fulfilling his commandments.
 
The efficacy of created things does not include the power of nothingness to originate matter,
True, and any scientist who says otherwise is not being scientific and following proper scientific method.
or the power of environmental factors,
Huh? This is unduly vague.
adaptational needs and mutations to originate living organisms,which is how science explains the origins of things.
This is an assumption on your part, one that finds no support in theology, philosophy or science.

Since matter is very specific, it is capable of fulfilling the purposes for which the Creator intends.
Matter is created by the power of God,and living organisms are created by the power of God working upon matter (as in the act of reproduction or conception). Because science ignores knowledge of the power of God in nature,it attributes to “mechanisms” what is actually the power of God. Science invents mechanisms of the gaps.
You keep repeating ad nauseam your same position. You have refused to cite any authority for your assumptions. This is a thread about proving things, but you never offer proof, or at least a good logical argument, or even an authority of repute on the subject.

Actually, it is obvious that you are not only making a “god of the gaps” argument, you are also inventing gaps where none exist.

You ignore the scientific knowledge that God had given man, knowledge which man acquires through his own labours, as intended by God. Hence, you are discrediting the works of God including the human faculty of reason created by God.

The ancient pagan Greeks could not explain lightening, so they attributed it to Zeus and his displeasure with man. For the pagans, the gods were used to explain whatever they did not understand. You have reduced the true God to a pagan divinity who continually intervenes in nature as your explanation for what you do not understand. Sounds pretty pagan to me.

Christianity supplanted ancient pagan religions only to have modern fundamentalist creationists reduce the Christian God to a pagan-like deity. (And don’t bother playing a game again with the words creationist and creation. Once was enough.)

Cheerio!
 
How many people believe that life exists on other planets? Why do people continue to beleive in aliens and tell fairy tales of little green men in spaceships? There’s zero scientific proof of these things. Some people take quite a leap with their faiths.

What would make any honest atheist scientist believe there’s actually a beginning or an end to time or physical space? Given the history that the atom was once believed to be smallest particle, then electron, then neutrino, then quark, etc., what rational, logical person (who believes that God does not exist) would ever believe that science will EVER reach the end??? Is there any reason to believe that, with the invention of newer instruments which are more sensitive, they will suddenly stop yielding newer and newer patterns of highly repeatable phenomena, to be named by the inventor, and heralded as “the end” by the next generation of we’re-smarter-than-the-last-generations, who should know by now that their info will be eventually outdone, given the history of newer, smaller phenomena??? It might have practical application one day. Just as long as we don’t kid ourselves into believing we have an honest chance to ever reach the end.

Same with the macroscopic universe. Why do some atheist scientists believe there’s actually a beginning or an end to time or physical space? Given the history of flat earth theory, then geocentric, then heliocentric, big bang, etc., what rational, logical person (who believes that God does not exist) would ever believe that science will EVER reach the beginning??? Is there any reason to believe that, with the invention of newer instruments which are more sensitive, that there won’t be a thousand million more future theories after big bang???
 
True, and any scientist who says otherwise is not being scientific and following proper scientific method.
It isn’t about method,it’s about the way scientists view and explain the natural world. Scientific naturalism is not a method itself,it is just a way of viewing and explaining things.
Huh? This is unduly vague.
Environmental factors are any of the local circumstances that may affect a species,such as heat and cold,water and sunlight,geographical location and terrain,and the food resources and the other species therein.
This is an assumption on your part, one that finds no support in theology, philosophy or science.
It is part of the doctrine of divine providence that God is the cause (that is,power) behind natural causes,not only for their existence but for their ordering and life.
Since matter is very specific, it is capable of fulfilling the purposes for which the Creator intends.
Now that’s vague. Are we referring to something like the ability for water drops to replenish the earth and sustain living creatures,or something like the ability for rain-clouds and the earth to function as a self-sufficient eco-system,independently of God’s power? Or does God give to proteins and amino acids the power to form themselves into living cells? Is it God working upon nature or is it natural “laws” and “mechanisms” doing what God supposedly gave them the ability to do,as Francis Bacon would have thought?

Matter is only capable of fulfilling what God intends to the extent that he himself makes matter do his will. He does not give matter power of its own (that is,independent power) to create life and to order itself.
You keep repeating ad nauseam your same position.
So is it true or not?
You have refused to cite any authority for your assumptions. This is a thread about proving things, but you never offer proof, or at least a good logical argument, or even an authority of repute on the subject.
I have offered logical arguments. The only authority I need is the Catholic doctrine of creation and divine providence,in which only God has the power to create life and natural order. Created things only participate in God’s acts of creation.
For example,the act of conception and reproduction is an act of God firstly,since it is the Holy Spirit that gives life to matter.
Actually, it is obvious that you are not only making a “god of the gaps” argument, you are also inventing gaps where none exist.
The “gaps” refer to gaps in natural knowledge about how nature works,as if natural knowledge were adequate to explain all natural phenomena. But I am proposing knowledge of God’s dominion over nature,not assuming that natural answers offered by science are more certain. I don’t buy into the idea that science is the most certain approach to truth. It can’t be,since it uses the naturalistic view,which is false,and it gives to so-called “mechanisms” power that they cannot logically have.
 
It isn’t about method,it’s about the way scientists view and explain the natural world. Scientific naturalism is not a method itself,it is just a way of viewing and explaining things.
Methodological naturalism is called “methodological” because it entails a method. It differs from naturalism per se, though I don’t agree with what many MN maintain to be the relationship of philosophy to science. That is, it is not proper for philosophy to observe MN.

A scientist can be a MN without personally believing in naturalism. This fact points to a critical flaw in your argument. Nonetheless, we can get away from the term methodological naturalism, and ask whether the explanations given by the natural sciences should include supernatural or supranatural explanations. Traditionally, the answer is “No”.

There are a few who disagree, such as Plantiga (1966), and ID theorists who are woefully lacking in philosophical understanding, so much so, that what they are doing is not science, and it involves rank philosophy and even worse theology.

There are categorical differences between theological, philosophic, and scientific knowledge. There is no proper scientific method that allows the scientist, as a scientist, to give a theological and philsophical answer to a scientific question. However, if he does so, we should ask, On what grounds then, does he base his non-scientific answer? Certainly it is not based strictly on his science, since such an answer oversteps the proper limit and scope of natural science. His philosophical or theological speculations are based on theological or philosophic reflections on natural science, which is perfectly legitimate.
It is part of the doctrine of divine providence that God is the cause (that is,power) behind natural causes,not only for their existence but for their ordering and life.
Whose doctrine of divine providence? I think it is the anthony022071’s doctrine of divine providence.

You views, as I have pointed about several times before, are not consistent with Church teachings on providence and creation. That is, your view is a type of creationism. You put a creationist spin on Creation and Providence.

In addition, as I have also previously noted, your creationism denies to created things their own efficacy. You present a one-sided and thus errant view of Creation and Providence.
Now that’s vague. Are we referring to something like the ability for water drops to replenish the earth and sustain living creatures,or something like the ability for rain-clouds and the earth to function as a self-sufficient eco-system,independently of God’s power? Or does God give to proteins and amino acids the power to form themselves into living cells? Is it God working upon nature or is it natural “laws” and “mechanisms” doing what God supposedly gave them the ability to do,as Francis Bacon would have thought?
It’s not a Baconian view that was intended. Try Thomistic.
Matter is only capable of fulfilling what God intends to the extent that he himself makes matter do his will. He does not give matter power of its own (that is,independent power) to create life and to order itself.
You are not in a position to understand how divine and natural causality work together. That’s just one of the negative effects of buying into creationist ideology.
So is it true or not?
No, not true!
I have offered logical arguments. The only authority I need is the Catholic doctrine of creation and divine providence,in which only God has the power to create life and natural order. Created things only participate in God’s acts of creation.
For example,the act of conception and reproduction is an act of God firstly,since it is the Holy Spirit that gives life to matter.
You presume to understand Catholic teaching on creation and divine providence. I disagree. Neither are you aware of the mind of the Church on the province and role of the natural sciences, or, at least you have not show that you have any awareness whatsoever. That being the case, how then can you even begin to construct a logical and informed argument? 🤷
The “gaps” refer to gaps in natural knowledge about how nature works,as if natural knowledge were adequate to explain all natural phenomena. But I am proposing knowledge of God’s dominion over nature,not assuming that natural answers offered by science are more certain. I don’t buy into the idea that science is the most certain approach to truth. It can’t be,since it uses the naturalistic view,which is false,and it gives to so-called “mechanisms” power that they cannot logically have.
Natural knowledge is sufficient, in theory, to describe natural phenomena, the quantitative aspects of things and their relations.
 
Proving things is necessary for humans because we know discursively, reasoning from principles to conclusions, whereas the angels know things immediately, intuitively. “[R]eason is man’s differentia, at once his necessity and his privilege; that by which he is ‘a little less than the angels’, and that by which he excels the brutes. Reasoning, as St. Thomas says, is a defect of intellect” ( on "Reason"Cath. Encyclo.).
 
The proof is in the scientific explanation itself. I have never seen a strictly scientific explanation that “denies” divine causality. If you think such exists, then you should post some examples. So far, you have presented absolutely no evidence to support your contention. Do you think having evidence to support one’s opinion is important? Or, do you think that evidence does not matter? Do you think we are entitled to whatever opinion we want to hold regardless of whether there exists any supporting evidence, or whether the evidence that does exist is actually a contra-indication of the position?
 
Watching “Beautiful Minds”, thinking about CERN’s big bang that is actually little bang, what can Chaos theory (can we prove it in 3D) prove about lost data? Will anyone ever stop proving, will the control become the experament? Who controls the control. How do we prove a proof,
Everything is possible to one who has faith,
but without love can we even determine if it is pride or necessity.
ex] we do not know everything about our planet and we are exploring about others. Possibly creating others in some tube in France. There are how many humans and how much air, food, land, history, global warming
Lets first set a priority list… Human Life sustainable???I love this topic, and with 1000 plus posts so does everyone else…
 
Please refrain from call Darwin’s theory anything other than an explanation to prove simple things within the scope of the limits of the human mind. On cosmic or metaphysical things it’s all just opinion, unproveable on both sides. We know or we don’t based on what we are taught and our sinful and faulty desires. Only God knows.
 
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