On the road of conversion - few questions

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Quick background - I was raised Catholic but never confirmed (didn’t feel right at the time). My wife was raised essentially non-denominational. After much searching, I now feel that Catholicism is the only choice, and she is very open to this. We have been meeting privately with a priest as part of this process. Recently a few questions have come up that have bothered my wife …
  • Her grandparents were her religious center growing up, and as I said above they were essentially non-mainline evangelical protestants that attended whatever “low” church was closest. She was baptized in a church like this. Fr. is concerned that it may not be a valid baptism. My wife feels a bit hurt, in that it feels like someone is saying that what her grandparents did for her ‘wasn’t good enough’ - and she thinks her grandparents would take great offense to that.
  • Similar to that. Fr. also made a comment when talking about his own parents … that they are “probably in heaven” - I tried explaining that no one really knows but Jesus and that he was just choosing his words carefully to reflect that. She grew up with her grandparents being family rocks that could/would resolutely tell her that ‘everything is ok, they are with Jesus’ – and that’s what she wants for our children.
  • she is also worried about what she sees as rules for the sake of rules … which, well, 2,000 years will maybe do some of that.
Does anyone have some answers or resources to help with this?
 
Wonderful to have you back!

Baptism:

First we have to recognize that Jesus was baptized, baptism is all over the scriptures and is essential for salvation. So, without going into the theology of it, just review the nuts and bolts of it. Baptism needs three things:
  1. Trinitarian formula … “baptize you in the name of the father, son and holy spirit”
  2. Form … water, running, standing, cold, hot, poured, whatevs, just need the form of water
  3. Willingness … an acknowledgement of what baptism is, what it means, for yourself or for the infant. As an infant, the parents desire for the childs salvation is more than sufficient.
When you met with the Pastor and he asked to confirm the baptism, it is not a slight of any kind on your wife, your wife’s grandparents, or even the church that they performed the baptism at. It is a verification of truth, they call it discernment. The Catholic church takes this stuff seriously, so seriously that each and every baptism is recorded and kept. Last year, I thought I’d get the baptism certificate for my brother. Gosh, I had to call my older sister to find out which church he was baptized in, called them, the sent me the record, I got it framed and gave it to my brother as a present. The certificate was from 1963, sealed, certified, signed, authorized, and all that.

None, if not barley any, Protestant type churches take this stuff seriously. They definately take baptism seriously, but the stuff that comes with it, not so much … stuff like, name, date, place and such.

Not to fear, if you were baptized, you were baptized, the Holy Spirit knows that. If the church doesn’t know that, we can do what’s called a “conditional baptism” whereby you get baptized, “just in case” we can’t confirm your baptism.

Don’t take this as a slight against any person, family, church or anything.
 
Parents in heaven … I have been taught by the Church that my salvation is guaranteed through Baptism and through Faith and Works. In short, I can go to heaven as long as I follow God throughout my whole life, persevere until the end.

As such, we humans can never know how other humans fared in judgement after death. There is the Saint thing, where we the faithful elect can have evidence that some individuals have made it to heaven because of investigated and confirmed intercessions on their behalf (the blessed and venerated)

In truth, I can only say with certainty “I hope my parents are in heaven”

no guarantee (other than personal salvation, but that’s a theological topic, we’re doing pastoral)

The danger I see in the “common” Protestant views of heaven, if we go around saying, “everyone you’ve ever loved in your life is in heaven” … how do we know? the danger is that no matter who, when, where, how, you make it to heaven. Dangerous! Sounds like a once-saved-always-saved thing.
 
rules! ack! not the rules thing … have you ever seen the US tax code? talk about rules! Have you ever seen the NBA or NFL league rulebooks?

I’ve heard that the catholic church has too many rules.

First reply: Not really, the rules are not a lot, more like simple guidelines. Here is my example. Jesus got baptized and made sure we all knew that baptism was essential. But, how do we do it? When? Who gets to? Do we need to keep a record? There’s a bunch more than baptism.

Second, most complaints about rules from the catholic church means that the person doesn’t agree with the rule for some reason or not. Usually, not for the reason that is pertinent to the topic at hand, but for some other reason. This is where we probably should start digging, it’s not the rule people don’t like or understand, it’s the theology or tradition.

As an evangelist, I have found that the biggest “RULE” in the catholic book is about marriage and the massive cloud of misinformation around it. The principal here is that marriage is not only a natural institution, it’s also a holy institution and the fuzzy ideas come from the natural part into the supernatural part. The catholic church is concerned about the true union in a sacramental marriage.

Sigh! I hope my tone isn’t off, I want to encourage. The rules are not that bad, they are there to protect the church, to protect you, and to ensure that everything goes smoothly.

Here’s a CALive apologist’s analogy on rules:

Let’s say you have a pizza party for 5 friends, no biggie, a few texts and calls we got ourselves a pizza night. How about for 50 friends or coworkers? Not too bad, a little extra time to figure out where we’ll get the pizzas, coordinate times and places and costs. Let’s bump that pizza party up to 500,000 people … a few text messages aren’t going to cut it. We’re going to need like records and documents, and signatures and stuff. The catholic church is a pizza party of 1.2 billion faithful, hard to keep all these peoples straight, a few rules might help keep it all organized.

I have a sense that the written tone might be off, but please don’t take it in any way in other than a regular dood (that’s me) trying to affirm, acknowledge, defend, promote, and cherish our church.
 
GREAT Q’s

Thanks

What the Mrs needs to prayerfully accept is that TRUTH can only be singular per define issue.

1st. Father WILL do most likely under these conditions what the Church terms a “CONDITIONAL” Baptism, which means he Mrs will be re-baptized, BUT the effects of that Baptism will ONLY take effect IF, the prior Baptism was in some way invalid.

John 3:5 teaches us the necessity of Christian Sacramental Baptism, and Mt 28:19-20 tells us of the FORM. … The Original Baptism MAY [???] have been valid if both the Form and the “matter” [water in the name of the Trinity were used.

Secondly: The RCC is NOT passing fianl judgment on the grandparents, as ONLY God CAN do that.

God will, because as GOD He MUST, make HIS fianl Judgments upon each Soul based upon what He GOD has made possible for each Soul to know.

The issue then is not “Rules” BUT The TRUTH, which can logically, morally and biblically MUST be singular per define dissue.

Pope Benedict XVI shared this insight on ruth: THERE CANNOT BE YOU… R TRUTH AND MY RUTH OR THEiR WOULD BE NO TRUTH." … this is indisputably correct.

A Former pt mentor of mine, Father John Hardon S J, shares this about TRUTH and it’s irrevocable significance: TRUTH IS THE CONDITION OF GRACE, IT IS THE SOURCE OF GRACE, IT IS THE CHANNEL OF GRACE, IT IS THE DIVINELY ORDAINED REQUI, REQUIREMENT OF GRACE":; which then explains the Catholic position and teaching.

Take this as the obvious need for a Sacramental VALID Baptism for grace to begin flowing into ones Soul.

I hope you find this helpful? If not PLEASE let Me know,
Patrick [PJM]
 
Welcome back I am tagging someone with years of experience in DRE

@pianistclare
 
I would suggest taking your questions your wife has to the priest you already mentioned that you two are talking too, as you are only going to convoluted opinions on here . Seeking the opinion of the priest you are talking too is a bit more valuable since you are dealing with someone first hand that you read in person and determine if the opinions given are worth anything.
 
Thanks Rose!

Again, welcome home!
OP, tell your beloved, that the reason why there are so many Catholics is the great history we have beginning with Christ, and Sacred Tradition, supported by the proper interpretation of Scriptures through the Magisterium.
Simply put, we have a wealth of information available to us from centuries of great scholarship and revelation through the various Saints and Popes.
Everything you need for salvation subsists in the Catholic Church and her teachings, Which means, if you have our teachings in your “toolbox” you will be well on the road to heaven. She well knows that rules, by themselves are not meant to constrict. They are there to liberate. In this case, to liberate us from poor decision making, temptation, sin, and mistakes that will have grave consequences for our souls.
For example, when the Church says "you must go to Mass every Sunday, we are merely keeping the Commandment to honor God, putting Him FIRST in our lives. While we are at Mass, we hear His Word. Advice and lessons for us. We also receive Holy Eucharist…food for the journey. Grace for the week, and have the bonus of praying for our brothers and sisters in Christ and they are also praying with and for us! So, what some may see as a silly rule, is actually everything we need for our toolbox…to help us on the path to heaven.
If one were to try to excel at a sport…there would be long hours of practice.
(prayer) There would be research on better methods (study of the faith) competitions and classes (fellowship and challenges in faith) failure and strength to get up and try again (Reconciliation.)

I will certainly pray for your faith journey as a couple. This is an exciting time for your family. Be aware, it will be joyous, but sometimes not all that peachy. Some teachings are hard. But that is simply the prince of lies trying to keep you from Christ The only thing he can do to hurt you is to stand in the way of a loving relationship with the ONE who loves you beyond measure. Pray often together, go to Adoration, and learn all you can.
God is with you! Rejoice!
~Clare
 
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About Baptism:
I’m not sure, but in your wife’s case it might be a conditional baptism. IOW, the baptism may have been effective, but because of the beliefs of your non-denominational wife, and her grandparents, which they may not even be aware of, baptism in their “church” is merely an ordinance and is incapable of regeneration. IOW, they believe “accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior” is what is regenerational, not baptism. BECAUSE of this belief, (which is not shared by any of the mainline Protestant Churches, which all DO believe in Baptismal Regeneration) it is considered necessary to baptize conditionally.

It is a prudent precaution, as Baptism is just TOO important in Christianity to leave questionable. Imagine how Anglican priests feel that convert to Catholicism, and must be conditionally re-ordained (for much the same reasons) John Henry Newman had to be re-ordained conditionally when he converted to Catholicism.
 
I was conditionally baptized when I was received into the Church. The conditional baptism is a “just in case” type thing. It doesn’t deny the previous baptism, it just means that the Church isn’t 100% sure about the previous baptism. My conditional baptism was done in private the day before I was confirmed. There is no need to make it part of the public reception into the Church nor any reason to share it with your wife’s family.
Can she give an example of “rules for the sake of rules”? Every “rule” has a purpose.
 
Hi!

What I know about most religious movements around my area is that they are either for Baptism (must be Baptized in the group’s system no matter what other Baptism has been received/or not) or they don’t believe in Baptism (if you have, great; if not so what).

Understanding why the Catholic Church validates Baptism from some non-Catholics while not accepting others could be a key to helping your wife understand this issue; also, the Church believes in the merit of “Baptism of intention” which means that even if not administered perfectly, if the intent was to become part of the Body of Christ, then those who died in such state would have been Granted, by the Holy Spirit, the merits of the perfect Baptism (the term is only in reference to form).

The Heaven thing… this is more of culture than anything else; most non-Catholics believe in some form of once-saved-done deal (Heaven bound no matter what); the Catholic theology deals with Salvation in Christ, which means that not even the Church has the Authority to Save (claim anyone is in Heaven) or condemn (absolute judgment that “xyz” is in hell).

The rules… yeah… imagine a Church with no rules… oh wait, just go around the corner… almost every group has their complicated set of rules (the others just pretend that they do not have them).

Just yesterday I was on a bus where three ladies were discussing a “church.” It seems that to become part of this particular group they have a simple rule: no walk ins! How many rules do they have after that one, I can’t tell. Yet, clearly, there has been some establishment of “rules” or “non-rules” that are completely suspect.

In the Catholic Church, as far as I know, all the rules are geared to Salvation not to exclusion–the fact that the Church has remained for over two thousand years must speak to having some capacity to organize and maintain its Doctrinal values and demands.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Bootsy said:
Also baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. Once you are convicted of the holy spirit, choose to accept Jesus as your savior( learn by reading the Bible) you will want to obey Jesus. And he said we should get baptized. We were born dead in.our sins. Once we choose Jesus, say yes to Jesus, we become live in Christ and heirs.to His kingdom.
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In the Christian Church, as founded by the Apostles, Baptism is an outward sign of God’s work (or grace) which regenerates our souls, IOW, a rebirth, as Jesus explained to Nicodemus. It is NOT a sign of something that already happened, as you imply (the idea that we are “reborn” by our own acceptance of Jesus, and baptism is a sign of that.) That is just not Biblical.
 
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Bootsy said:
We are born again by accepting God s gift…grace. Baptism signifies a rebirth. Yes, that is biblical. The theif on the cross was saved because he accepted Jesus, by your faith you are saved. He did not have time to be baptized.
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That does not negate the regeneration of Baptism, does it? Nor does it prove that everyone will be saved like the thief on the cross does it? Obviously, there was no possible way he (the thief) could be baptized, while at the same time, the thief proved his Faith in a heroic fashion. This is the exception that proves the rule.

Jesus said we MUST be born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5) You make void the word of God with human tradition when you deny Baptismal regeneration.
 
But you DENY that the Sacramental Baptismal Water REGENERATES the soul don’t you?
 
Does anyone have some answers or resources to help with this?
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I think the Bible is your best resource.
Quick background - I was raised Catholic but never confirmed (didn’t feel right at the time). My wife was raised essentially non-denominational. After much searching, I now feel that Catholicism is the only choice, and she is very open to this. We have been meeting privately with a priest as part of this process. Recently a few questions have come up that have bothered my wife …
  • Her grandparents were her religious center growing up, and as I said above they were essentially non-mainline evangelical protestants that attended whatever “low” church was closest. She was baptized in a church like this. Fr. is concerned that it may not be a valid baptism. My wife feels a bit hurt, in that it feels like someone is saying that what her grandparents did for her ‘wasn’t good enough’ - and she thinks her grandparents would take great offense to that.
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  1. A “bit” hurt. That doesn’t sound as though it’s a game changer.
  2. Wouldn’t her grandparents be offended at her merely considering becoming a Catholic?
  3. Are her grandparents alive and have they taken offense?
  4. This sounds like an emotional response which only time can heal. In my opinion.
  • Similar to that. Fr. also made a comment when talking about his own parents … that they are “probably in heaven” - I tried explaining that no one really knows but Jesus and that he was just choosing his words carefully to reflect that. She grew up with her grandparents being family rocks that could/would resolutely tell her that ‘everything is ok, they are with Jesus’ – and that’s what she wants for our children.
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  1. Presumption of salvation is considered a sin in the Catholic Church. A grave sin, actually. So, she might need more time if that’s a roadblock.
1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
  1. However, we are allowed to live in the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
  • she is also worried about what she sees as rules for the sake of rules … which, well, 2,000 years will maybe do some of that.
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Any specifics?

I hope that helps.
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Hi!

The problem is that it is an instance of an event, as the thief on the cross; what you and others refuse to accept is that necessity of Baptism:
16:33 Late as it was, he took them to wash their wounds, and was baptised then and there with all his household. (Acts)
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If Baptism was a mere symbolic gesture, why would those who had already Received the Holy Spirit need to be Baptized, is God moved by outward appearances?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Read Jesus’ Command:
28:19 Go, therefore, make disciples of all the nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (St. Matthew)
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Jesus Commands that those who are made into His Disciples be Baptized; Jesus is not Commanding that their “Faith” be tested; rather, that they become One, through Baptism, with the Body.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
James says faith is a work. Even the demons believe. The works Paul condemns are the Mosaic law. Jesus fulfilled the 600 plus laws.

Works apart from faith are nothing.

James 2:
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?k
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
 
“Bootsy said:
Read John and Romans…time and time again, it is by our faith we are saved. Baptism is obeying Jesus’ command once we accept Him into our heart.
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John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

Romans 2:6 who will repay everyone according to his works:[a] 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. 11 There is no partiality with God.

Judgment by the Interior Law.[c] 12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
 
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