On the seal of Confession

[FrDavid96]

Since you aren’t Catholic, you aren’t bound by the ban.

But the defense attorney would still try to exclude your testimony if it came to that.

That’s not the case.

Everyone who overhears a confession is bound by the Seal. Everyone. No exceptions.

 

[MiserableSinner]

The context is being a visitor during someone else’s religious ceremony. Please keep context in mind when you’re reading my comments.

Father, thanks for bringing up the point of hearsay. It was a wise thing to do.

I should point out, as you already believe, that the Sacrament of Confession is not just someone else’s religious ceremony.** Almighty God is literally involved in this because He is the one who instituted the Sacrament of Confession when He gave the first Holy Orders to your spiritual descendants.**

John 20:22 - the words of God on Earth - our Lord Jesus Christ

So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

It is good to know that Holy Orders can be traced all the way back from YOU, personally, to the Lord Jesus Christ - the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. That should give us confidence in the confessional that God is with us. God gave the first Holy Orders to the Apostles, and the Apostles gave Holy Orders to the next Apostles, and the next Apostles gave Holy Orders to the next Apostles, and so on, and the Apostles (Bishops) gave Holy Orders to all of the priests in the world. Every priest has Holy Orders that trace back to God on Earth giving the very first Holy Orders. So all Holy Orders come from God Himself.

You already believe these things, but I felt the need to point out the difference between a religious ceremony that someone of a different religion participates in and the Sacrament of Confession.

So with the understanding that God is present in Holy Confession, and the priest’s Holy Orders can be traced back to God on Earth, we should be very confident that we are doing the will of the omnipotent Creator by confessing every last sin we can remember in Holy Confession.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut Father, I know you normally don’t comment in these threads, but your (name removed by moderator)ut was very much needed with regards to hearsay. It might not have been brought up had you not done this good work. May the Lord bless you abundantly Father, and I will pray that He grants you grace in your difficult fight against the spiritual darkness of this world. I love you.

I salute you
I salute your Guardian Angel

 

[Bonnie]

I did think about that too.

It might happen in a hospital. A person in bed-A overhears someone in bed-B making a confession.

At first it does sound near-impossible, but after thinking about it for a while, it’s not so far fetched.

Yes, this is a possibility. And people with loud voices. I’ve almost overheard confessions - but I stuck my fingers in my ears - another time a lady started singing hymns so people couldn’t hear.

 

[Bonnie]

That is not true.

It wasn’t my parish - I just know the priest. It was enough of a scandal that he got transferred to a different parish. So yes - it was true.

 

[MiserableSinner]

It wasn’t my parish - I just know the priest. It was enough of a scandal that he got transferred to a different parish. So yes - it was true.

Hearsay is a big enough problem in a court of law. Eternity is at stake in this thread. Both for the OP and those who read it.

What you have given is evidence that people THOUGHT they knew who he was talking about. And that is evidence at best, not proof. It is evidence based on hearsay. What you have not shown is that they actually did figure out who it was that he was talking about, as you originally claimed.

Your evidence is inconclusive AND based on hearsay. OP, I recommend that you throw out his testimony. It is not credible. - That is exactly what would happen in the situation you asked about. It would be inconclusive evidence based on hearsay.

Thank you for your grace Jesus. Please save his soul, God. In Jesus Name I pray.

God loves you AND the OP. Please let this go. We want him and everyone else who reads this to trust God and go to Heaven.

I love you

 

[MiserableSinner]

I think I should also mention that it is illegal to wiretap a Confession. That would also be thrown out, no matter if it was a crime as severely punished as treason in war time.

You are safe in Holy Confession. God is with you. You are in good hands. He will wash you clean in His Blood. When He makes you clean - you are truly CLEAN. If you had committed every last sin that every last person who is currently in Hell has committed and been damned to Hell for all of Eternity for, you would be safe in Holy Confession and when you had confessed every last sin with the help of the Holy Spirit, you would be Absolved by Christ’s representative whose Holy Orders are from God Himself. When he grants you absolution, God washes your soul completely clean in His own Blood. Why is it that all of the sins of all of the damned could be forgiven in Holy Confession? Look at the Cross. You are being washed clean in the Blood of the Infinite and Eternal God. He desires to have mercy on every soul on Earth, and His Mercy is not finite. It is not measurable. There is no point at which God will not have Mercy on you. His Mercy is Infinite. God is Love. God is Infinite. God’s Mercy is His Love in action.** His mercy is from age to age to those who fear Him.
**
God loves you all. Feel confident and safe in confession. God has brought you there for the purpose of having mercy on you, and the Holy Spirit is with you. Read the link I posted on page one.

 

[noorez]

Hey all! Thanks for the valuable (name removed by moderator)ut. Really helps get the gears chrning.

Hope no one took this to mean I do not appreciate the teaching and the power of this sacrament. (Wasn’t quite needed here but…) my wife is a strong practicing catholic and I’d feel kinda bad just outright not respecting this beautiful ceremony.

Bringing my original though back: since I personally do not hold to these beliefs, I just wonder what I would do should I be landed in this (most super unlikely) circumstance…

But I suppose if it really came down to it and I was at a loss…
“Just give a little whistle, and always let your conscious be your guide”!

 

[MiserableSinner]

Our conscience can be corrupted. Don’t always let your conscience be your guide. Trust the Holy Spirit. He guided us into all Truth. If our conscience contradicts what He revealed to us (doctrine and dogma) - Go with what He says and not your conscience. Otherwise, God will be offended and possible gravely. Speaking of that, if in Holy Confession you know you have committed a sin that God’s Church teaches is grave matter but you disagree and conceal it - you commit sacrilege and your Absolution is invalid. You are then in a worse state than you were before.

God loves you. His mercy is from age to age to those who fear Him

Are you in RCIA yet? At Baptism all of your sins are washed away along with temporal punishment. You only have to confess sins that you commit AFTER Baptism. You also receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism.

 

[FrDavid96]

Hey all! Thanks for the valuable (name removed by moderator)ut. Really helps get the gears chrning.

Hope no one took this to mean I do not appreciate the teaching and the power of this sacrament. (Wasn’t quite needed here but…) my wife is a strong practicing catholic and I’d feel kinda bad just outright not respecting this beautiful ceremony.

Bringing my original though back: since I personally do not hold to these beliefs, I just wonder what I would do should I be landed in this (most super unlikely) circumstance…

But I suppose if it really came down to it and I was at a loss…
“Just give a little whistle, and always let your conscious be your guide”!

Thanks for asking.

Just keep in mind that the Seal (ie the secrecy) belongs to the penitent and to the priest. That means that anyone else who happens to overhear is still bound by the secrecy.

In confession, the penitent must be able to speak openly and honestly and the only way that can happen is if the person has an expectation of privacy; every single time.

I’m not a doctor. Since I spend a lot of time in hospitals, I often have occasion to overhear conversations which I should not. If I happen to learn that “Mr Smith in room 302 has such-and-such disease” because I overhear 2 doctors in the elevator (which isn’t supposed to happen), I am still bound to keep that information secret. That’s true even though doctor-patient confidentiality doesn’t apply to me directly. It’s the same principle with regard to someone who is not a priest (or even not a Christian).

 

[Faith1960]

I think I should also mention that it is illegal to wiretap a Confession. That would also be thrown out, no matter if it was a crime as severely punished as treason in war time.

You are safe in Holy Confession. God is with you. You are in good hands. He will wash you clean in His Blood. When He makes you clean - you are truly CLEAN. If you had committed every last sin that every last person who is currently in Hell has committed and been damned to Hell for all of Eternity for, you would be safe in Holy Confession and when you had confessed every last sin with the help of the Holy Spirit, you would be Absolved by Christ’s representative whose Holy Orders are from God Himself. When he grants you absolution, God washes your soul completely clean in His own Blood. Why is it that all of the sins of all of the damned could be forgiven in Holy Confession? Look at the Cross. You are being washed clean in the Blood of the Infinite and Eternal God. He desires to have mercy on every soul on Earth, and His Mercy is not finite. It is not measurable. There is no point at which God will not have Mercy on you. His Mercy is Infinite. God is Love. God is Infinite. God’s Mercy is His Love in action.** His mercy** is from age to age to those who fear Him.

God loves you all. Feel confident and safe in confession. God has brought you there for the purpose of having mercy on you, and the Holy Spirit is with you. Read the link I posted on page one.

What if someone committed murder? Would they be absolved or would they have to turn themselves in first?

 

[FrDavid96]

What if someone committed murder? Would they be absolved or would they have to turn themselves in first?

Absolution does not depend on whether or not someone turns himself in to authorities. No priest can withhold absolution until the penitent turns himself in to authorities.

This question gets asked over and over again on CAF, and no doubt, someone will wrongly reply and try to say that it does.

No, the priest cannot (cannot, again can not, may not, is prohibited from…) require that the penitent turn himself in to authorities.

:tanning:
Now, let’s sit back and wait for someone to post (wrongly) that a priest can require someone to turn himself in.

 

[MiserableSinner]

What if someone committed murder? Would they be absolved or would they have to turn themselves in first?

As Father said, no.

They do have to have some form of contrition - perfect or imperfect - and they have to have the intention of not doing it again.

Father, it is possible for them to commit a sin even worse than murder by withholding the sin from Christ’s representative, right? Isn’t sacrilege in Holy Confession and sacrilege against His Body and Blood worse than murder? Is sacrilege against His Body and Blood worse than sacrilege in Holy Confession?

I think the severity of these sacrileges should be talked about more. I want to be sure I am saying the right thing when I tell people it is worse than murder and google is not cooperating with me.

Thanks for commenting in this thread, Father. God loves you

 

[FrDavid96]

As Father said, no.

They do have to have some form of contrition - perfect or imperfect - and they have to have the intention of not doing it again.

Father, it is possible for them to commit a sin even worse than murder by withholding the sin from Christ’s representative, right? Isn’t sacrilege in Holy Confession and sacrilege against His Body and Blood worse than murder? Is sacrilege against His Body and Blood worse than sacrilege in Holy Confession?

I think the severity of these sacrileges should be talked about more. I want to be sure I am saying the right thing when I tell people it is worse than murder and google is not cooperating with me.

Thanks for commenting in this thread, Father. God loves you

I doubt that any moral theologian would say that sacrilege is worse than murder.

 

[buc_fan33]

We get into dangerous grounds when we start parsing “is this sin worse than that sin?” Certainly, the Church distinguishes between mortal and venial sin, but there is a reason that the Church, in her wisdom, doesn’t draw a line in the sand and say, “Stealing this much is a venial sin, stealing this much is a mortal sin.” I think sometimes we are all guilty of the error of thinking that only mortal sin “really” matters, because that’s the only thing that can forfeit our salvation. On one hand, that’s true. But, on the other, it misses a crucial point and that is that the goal of the Christian life is not simply to avoid sin, but to grow in holiness.

The long and the short of it is that sin is sin is sin. We ought to avoid all sin, mortal and venial. Saying, “this sin is worse than that sin,” in a weird way implies that it’s sort of OK to commit the “less bad” sin, because, well, at least I didn’t commit THAT big whopper!

 

[WillyAL]

Everyone who overhears a confession is bound by the Seal. Everyone. No exceptions.

Since we are talking about hypotheticals…

I (a non-Catholic) am visiting my friend (Patient A) in his hospital room. Through the drawn curtain separating the patient beds I overhear Patient B’s confession. Patient B confesses to committing the crime for which Person C was wrongly convicted and is now serving a lengthy prison sentence.

Are you suggesting that I have a duty to keep this bit of information to myself?

 

[Faith1960]

Absolution does not depend on whether or not someone turns himself in to authorities. No priest can withhold absolution until the penitent turns himself in to authorities.

This question gets asked over and over again on CAF, and no doubt, someone will wrongly reply and try to say that it does.

No, the priest cannot (cannot, again can not, may not, is prohibited from…) require that the penitent turn himself in to authorities.

:tanning:
Now, let’s sit back and wait for someone to post (wrongly) that a priest can require someone to turn himself in.

Then in what instances can the priest withhold absolution?

 

[otjm]

Since we are talking about hypotheticals…

I (a non-Catholic) am visiting my friend (Patient A) in his hospital room. Through the drawn curtain separating the patient beds I overhear Patient B’s confession. Patient B confesses to committing the crime for which Person C was wrongly convicted and is now serving a lengthy prison sentence.

Are you suggesting that I have a duty to keep this bit of information to myself?

It has been pointed out that the seal (the privilege) belongs to both the penitent and to the confessor.

So what are you going to do with the information you have from overhearing?

Talk to the police? But they cannot legally use it, as B, the perpetrator, has the privilege. If the police were to arrest B on the basis of the information, B (through his attorney) would move to exclude the evidence on the basis of the privilege (and likely on the basis of hearsay - an out of court statement, made in court to prove the truth thereof).

So they use the testimony to try to find other evidence. If they should find other evidence, but the defense can discover that it is due to the tainted evidence (the overheard confession) it is likely that the separately found evidence, found due to the overheard confession, would also be excluded, on what is often called “fruit of the poisoned tree” - that is, it flows out of wrongful evidence.

And rather than all of us trying to be jailhouse lawyers, it (the scenario) should probably end there, as it otherwise devolves into a game, rather than a search for truth about the privilege.

If you want to read an actual case - murder - involving the privilege, read Mockaitis v. Harcleroad, 104 F. 3rd 1522, 1524 (9th Cir. 1997). Amicus Curiae included National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A., Christian Legal Society; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Presbyterian Church, the American Jewish Congress, and several others.

 

[FrDavid96]

Since we are talking about hypotheticals…

I (a non-Catholic) am visiting my friend (Patient A) in his hospital room. Through the drawn curtain separating the patient beds I overhear Patient B’s confession. Patient B confesses to committing the crime for which Person C was wrongly convicted and is now serving a lengthy prison sentence.

Are you suggesting that I have a duty to keep this bit of information to myself?

Oh no. Of course not. Absolutely not.

I am not suggesting that at all.

I’m making a statement. You (the hypothetical “one”) absolutely have an obligation to keep it to yourself.

1st, there is the Sea, and the Seal is absolutely inviolable. Period. 2nd, it is not your conversation. You should not be telling anyone else what you overheard from someone else’s private conversation.

There is a good reason why courts of law do not admit hearsay as evidence. That applies even more so with regard to overhearing someone else’s confession because the actual parties in the conversation are unable to defend themselves.

What if the penitent was saying something entirely different (like presenting a hypothetical just as you are doing on CAF) to the priest? By speaking out about it, you’ve already damaged the penitent beyond repair, and the priest is absolutely forbidden to testify as to what was truly said.

 

[FrDavid96]

Then in what instances can the priest withhold absolution?

The priest delays absolution in the following:

a. the penitent is not sincere in the confession
b. the individual priest does not have faculties to absolve from that particular sin
(c. the penitent is not Catholic, also applies, but that may be going beyond the scope of the question)

 

[noorez]

I think that the discussion clears up the fact that anything simply overheard would be considered hearsay.

Although it would be interesting to know if it has ever happened in the past…

Even worse, it would be interesting to know if a court has ever admitted to evidence a police bugged confession…even I would be quite appalled at this…

And similarly, has the court ever desided that “preist client privilege” did not apply just as “lawyer client privilege” does not apply in certain cases? Had a preist ever been jalied for not divulging this information in these cases?