On the Simplicity of the Church

[Truthstalker]

God is simple. With God, being, action, will and thought are one. God is without parts.

I look at myself and I see disfragmentation everywhere, sufficient cause to believe in total depravity. With me will, desire, action, mind and being all are internally fragmented, at war with each other: I do not do what I want, and I want what I should not, and I act against my own interests, yada yada yada. God is out to make me simple, to put the parts together.

I look at the Catholic Church. It is more like me than it is simple. I look at Catholics: I had another bruising run-in with a practicing Catholic yesterday, the kind that I walk away from saying, “whatever he believes is false, because of his actions, as there is no truth in what he does, thinks or feels that I can see.” There is conflict between belief and action in the lives of all of us, some more than others. The Catholic Church is at once, you say, the Body of Christ and an aggregate of sinners. It is certainly not simple, rather it seems to be becoming more complex with time.This disfragmentation of the church includes the problem of some Christians being outside the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church is to be more like God, it should more rather in the direction of simplicity than complexity. We have this treasure in earthly vessels, I think I hear in reply, but the treasure should prevail, and simplicity should win out. I do not see that happening. Perhaps it is something I am incapable of seeing, or perhaps I am wrong in thinking the Church should become more simple. God is out, I think, to make the Church simple, to unite and heal it, to make it one with Himself.

Where is the increasing simplicity in the Catholic Church?

 

[Flounder]

Hi Truthstalker,

God is simple. With God, being, action, will and thought are one. God is without parts…
I
Where is the increasing simplicity in the Catholic Church?

I think your problem may be with your use of the term simplicity. You define God’s simplicity really well, but then seem to expect the Church to work towards becoming a different simple, more in terms of, " boy that math test was simple," or “that crossword was sure simple.” But that isn’t what the Church is for.

The Church is following God’s guidance to make us simple, i.e. unified in thought, will, and action with HIm. But the way to do that given to the Church by Christ in the sacraments, laws, and revelation is not an easy way.

And you are not totally depraved – you are under attack just like the rest of us. Hang in there and lets pray for each other.

 

[Randy_Carson]

God is simple. With God, being, action, will and thought are one. God is without parts.

Good so far. God is simple.

We are not God, and the Church is not God. Paul wrote:The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized byc] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tonguesd]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desiree] the greater gifts. (1 Corinthians 12:12-30)

 

[slowbutfaithful]

Wow. Lots of questions. I’ll respond to only a few of these ideas for now.

I look at Catholics: I had another bruising run-in with a practicing Catholic yesterday, the kind that I walk away from saying, “whatever he believes is false, because of his actions, as there is no truth in what he does, thinks or feels that I can see.” There is conflict between belief and action in the lives of all of us, some more than others.

Don’t judge the Church on the behavior of a few of it’s members. Our zealousness to defend and protect Mother Church sometimes gets in the way of charity and humility. Sometimes we forget that our job is limited to spreading the Gospel and bringing others to Christ – we can mistakenly think the power of persuation will also convert theirs hearts. This, of course, is done only through power of the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Church is at once, you say, the Body of Christ and an aggregate of sinners.

Interesting apparent contradition. But the Church teaches that Christ became sin for us on the cross. We (as the body of Christ) continue to celebrate and participate in this sacrifice by offering up our sins to Him in the Mass, so that they too are erased. The Body of Christ being a group of penitent sinners isn’t a contradiction – it was his whole purpose for becoming one of us.

This disfragmentation of the church includes the problem of some Christians being outside the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church is to be more like God, it should more rather in the direction of simplicity than complexity.

Pope JPII spent more time than any Pope in recent history trying to heal the wounds of the reformation as well as older divisions within the Church (East and West). The current fragmentation of the Christian people must certainly be a heavy load on the heart of Jesus. The challenge (to the Church) is to heal these divisions without sacrificing (or compromising) the fundamental teachings of Christ’s Church. This isn’t an easy chore.

We have this treasure in earthly vessels, I think I hear in reply, but the treasure should prevail, and simplicity should win out. I do not see that happening.

Sorry, but I don’t know what you’re referring to here.

 

[petra]

God is simple. With God, being, action, will and thought are one. God is without parts.

I look at myself and I see disfragmentation everywhere, sufficient cause to believe in total depravity. With me will, desire, action, mind and being all are internally fragmented, at war with each other: I do not do what I want, and I want what I should not, and I act against my own interests, yada yada yada. God is out to make me simple, to put the parts together.

I look at the Catholic Church. It is more like me than it is simple. I look at Catholics: I had another bruising run-in with a practicing Catholic yesterday, the kind that I walk away from saying, “whatever he believes is false, because of his actions, as there is no truth in what he does, thinks or feels that I can see.” There is conflict between belief and action in the lives of all of us, some more than others. The Catholic Church is at once, you say, the Body of Christ and an aggregate of sinners. It is certainly not simple, rather it seems to be becoming more complex with time.This disfragmentation of the church includes the problem of some Christians being outside the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church is to be more like God, it should more rather in the direction of simplicity than complexity. We have this treasure in earthly vessels, I think I hear in reply, but the treasure should prevail, and simplicity should win out. I do not see that happening. Perhaps it is something I am incapable of seeing, or perhaps I am wrong in thinking the Church should become more simple. God is out, I think, to make the Church simple, to unite and heal it, to make it one with Himself.

Where is the increasing simplicity in the Catholic Church?

I would like to challenge your premise. Why do you believe God is simple? Is this based on scripture or your own opinion? If is based on scripture, what evidence can you provide from Prima Scriptura that the scriptures can be trusted? In the Incarnation and Authority thread, you never did explain how you get from the Incarnation to Divine Authority in the 21st Century.

God, in fact, is not simple. His mind and intentions are well beyond our understanding. His wisdom, intelligence, power, knowledge, love, and glory are vast. He created the universe and has orchestrated countless events to work His will without violating human will. He is sovereign, yet allows us the choice to love Him or not. To call God simple is an insult to Him.

Where do you come up with this stuff? With all due respect, your screen name is Truthstalker, but you seem to be more interested in what sinners are doing than seeking Truth. The Church’s oneness, holiness, apostolicity, and catholicity is not determined by the actions of sinners. I’m sorry about your negative encounters with Catholics, but you need to take your eyes off of man and direct them to God.

 

[Truthstalker]

I would like to challenge your premise. Why do you believe God is simple? Is this based on scripture or your own opinion? If is based on scripture, what evidence can you provide from Prima Scriptura that the scriptures can be trusted? In the Incarnation and Authority thread, you never did explain how you get from the Incarnation to Divine Authority in the 21st Century.

God, in fact, is not simple. His mind and intentions are well beyond our understanding. His wisdom, intelligence, power, knowledge, love, and glory are vast. He created the universe and has orchestrated countless events to work His will without violating human will. He is sovereign, yet allows us the choice to love Him or not. To call God simple is an insult to Him.

Where do you come up with this stuff? With all due respect, your screen name is Truthstalker, but you seem to be more interested in what sinners are doing than seeking Truth. The Church’s oneness, holiness, apostolicity, and catholicity is not determined by the actions of sinners. I’m sorry about your negative encounters with Catholics, but you need to take your eyes off of man and direct them to God.

Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part 1 Question 3: The Simplicity of God.

I am not done with the Incarnation Threads. You raised some good points that I need to look at.

Let God judge my heart. I do not believe He has given you that task.

 

[Truthstalker]

Sorry, but I don’t know what you’re referring to here.

Let me see if I can explain.

We, by the grace of God, become whole people as we walk with Him. In becoming whole people we become less conflicted, less devious, less shattered: less disconnected with ourselves and more whole. In short, we become more simple: one thing instead of several, more like a mirror that has been put back together and less like shards of glass.

This should not occur solely on an individual basis. There should be a corporate simplicity, and instead I find increasing complexity within Catholicism.

 

[Todd_Easton]

`Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?’

Your post reminded me of this parable of Jesus:Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?' He said to them, An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he said, No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’” (Matthew 13:24-30)
The moral seems to be don’t look for perfection or simplicity in the Church this side of heaven.

 

[petra]

Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part 1 Question 3: The Simplicity of God.

I am not done with the Incarnation Threads. You raised some good points that I need to look at.

Let God judge my heart. I do not believe He has given you that task.

I’m sorry. I don’t intend to judge your heart. But repeatedly you have judged the Catholic Church, based on the actions of individuals. Each time you do, people patiently explain to you that individuals are not impeccable—the Catholic Church does not claim that they are. The Church’s infallibility on matters of faith and morals is not contradicted by the actions of individuals.

St. Thomas Aquinas discusses “simplicity” as a concept that is contrasted with “composition.” He is simple in the sense that He is not composed of quantitative parts and elements. He is not a composition of form or matter. Aquinas also discusses that composites always have a first cause. God did not have a first cause, and is therefore simple rather than composite. That is the sense in which Aquinas discusses God as simple. He is not contrasting simplicity with complexity.

Only God is a first cause. God caused the Church, therefore, the Church is a composite and is not simple.

In the sense that you have described (contrasting simplicity with complexity) God is not simple at all. We are simple in our limited understanding. He is complex in his infinite knowledge, wisdom, etc.

 

[FCEGM]

God is simple. With God, being, action, will and thought are one. God is without parts.

. . .[etc.]
Where is the increasing simplicity in the Catholic Church?

You see it in the Saints, whose simplicity of heart mirrors that of God. The sacramental life of the Church and the rigor of their interior life nourishes the open simplicity that attracts the “non-simple” to a deeper longing for both an exterior and an interior simplicity, a oneness of purpose that is expressed in a multitude of ways, each glorifying this or that aspect of God. This can be seen in the “greatest” and the “smallest” of Saints - from Aquinas to Therese, from Ignatius to Margaret of Costello, from Teresa of Jesus to Dominic Savior.

 

[petra]

Let me see if I can explain.

We, by the grace of God, become whole people as we walk with Him. In becoming whole people we become less conflicted, less devious, less shattered: less disconnected with ourselves and more whole. In short, we become more simple: one thing instead of several, more like a mirror that has been put back together and less like shards of glass.

This should not occur solely on an individual basis. There should be a corporate simplicity, and instead I find increasing complexity within Catholicism.

You appear to be defining complexity as: conflicted, devious, shattered, disconnected with ourselves. You say that the Catholic Church is becoming more and more complex, presumably with the implication that the Catholic Church is drifting further from Christ.

I answer you that the Church is not conflicted. It has consistently held to doctrine and morals. The deposit of faith given to the Church by Christ has been faithfully preserved. Cite examples of how you think this is not the case.

The Church, as a universal entity, is not devious. The Church is holy. This is reflected in its moral teachings. Individuals may fail, but the Church has always been the beacon of light and hope. Cite examples of how Church teaching has not reflected this.

The Church is not shattered. We are One. People can either choose to be a part of it or not. But the unity of the Church remains.

We are not disconnected. We worship in unity, sharing the same liturgy and same Eucharist every Sunday. We are united in pennance and in the celebration of feasts. We are united in the practice of our faith.

You have made some harsh accusations here. Defend them. Excluding the actions of individuals, how is the Catholic Church universally becoming more conflicted, devious, shattered, and disconnected?

In contrast, look at Protestantism. It is shattered beyond recognition. It is conflicted in teachings central to salvation issues. There is no unity in worship and practice of faith. Individual Protestant churches are disconnected from each other. They are each an island.

I understand that you are in RCIA right now. May I ask why? You don’t seem to have any genuine interest in becoming a Catholic. You are, in fact, a pretty vocal opponent of the Church.

 

[slowbutfaithful]

Let me see if I can explain.

We, by the grace of God, become whole people as we walk with Him. In becoming whole people we become less conflicted, less devious, less shattered: less disconnected with ourselves and more whole. In short, we become more simple: one thing instead of several, more like a mirror that has been put back together and less like shards of glass.

This I agree with. Nicely said.

This should not occur solely on an individual basis. There should be a corporate simplicity, and instead I find increasing complexity within Catholicism.

This is a pretty broad statement that doesn’t follow from your intro. What aspect of Catholicism do you find ‘complex’? It’s a rich faith to be sure, with many different ways to love and serve Christ. But (following Jesus’ own instruction), it follows one primary commandment: Love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul. What’s so complex about that?

 

[Truthstalker]

This I agree with. Nicely said.

This is a pretty broad statement that doesn’t follow from your intro. What aspect of Catholicism do you find ‘complex’? It’s a rich faith to be sure, with many different ways to love and serve Christ. But (following Jesus’ own instruction), it follows one primary commandment: Love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul. What’s so complex about that?

Doctrine and canon law continue to develop, for example. Theology continues to become more complex all the time with every new idea and articulation and extrapolation of theology. The Missal is complex, and I understand the rubrics are, and the vestments, for example, as to when to wear what, and under what conditions such and such can happen. I think the reform of canon law (in the early 1900s?) brought some order into the system. Catholic thought has many streams, many ideas overlapping each other.

I think Petra had in mind that I was going to bring up the internal divisions in the Catholic Church, such as between the liberals and the conservatives, or the NO versus the TLM, or the lack of conformity to papal teaching. I think there has always been uproar in the Catholic Church, of one kind or another, and probably always will be. Petra, you went to some exercise to make me a critic of the Catholic Church: my definition “appears to be” and “presumably with the implication.” And then, again, you judge my heart. And I am no longer in RCIA, for reasons I have explained elsewhere.

I realize now that the Church cannot be simple, for reasons you explained. I have not gotten that far in Aquinas. And dealing with complex and fractured human beings, using complex and fractured human beings, calls for structures that are inherently complex, not simple. And the ways of ministry are becoming more complex as society becomes more complex, and as people become more and more broken, particularly in a culture where illegitimacy is soaring and families, thus people, are more and more broken.

I like what FCEGM said, about you can see it in the saints. I think God can, but a property of sainthood seems to be an unwillingness for one’s sanctity to be noticed. The loudmouths get noticed while the voice that whispers prayers in a closet is never seen. Perhaps you have to be on the lookout for saints, picking up rocks to see if anyone is praying under them, to find them. It is far easier to notice the one hundred people leaving Mass early than the sixteen who remain quietly in prayer after Mass has ended, and it is easier to notice the clod who cuts you off in the parking lot than the driver next to you who waits for you to leave before starting her car.

 

[slowbutfaithful]

Truthstalker: Can you point to a time in the Church (post ascension) when the fractures and other problems you cited did NOT exist? Many of the problems you’re apparently struggling with are not new … just perhaps more evident because we have easy and instantaneous access the wildest and most controversial things done and said within and to the Church. I’d venture a guess that 99% of the noise we hear today about “changes” in doctrine/liturgy/christian-life are just that: noise.

As FCEGM said, the saints provide us with an example to follow. But not all those examples are from the past. Unless you know where to look, it may be hard to find the quiet, contemplative living saint. But they’re here among us.

 

[Truthstalker]

Truthstalker: Can you point to a time in the Church (post ascension) when the fractures and other problems you cited did NOT exist? Many of the problems you’re apparently struggling with are not new … just perhaps more evident because we have easy and instantaneous access the wildest and most controversial things done and said within and to the Church. I’d venture a guess that 99% of the noise we hear today about “changes” in doctrine/liturgy/christian-life are just that: noise.

As FCEGM said, the saints provide us with an example to follow. But not all those examples are from the past. Unless you know where to look, it may be hard to find the quiet, contemplative living saint. But they’re here among us.

There’s always been uproar - I think you make a very good point about modern communication.

This is a complex world, requiring a complex interaction. But I still think there must be an underlying tendency towards simplicity on the corporate level and not just in the lives of individual saints. To insist that it is ONLY in the lives of individuals is to take a very Protestant and individualistic view of what the Church is. The Church should be increasing in holiness corporately. Maybe I can’t see the data, or don’t know where or how to look, or am simply blind to it.

Do you know how to find these living saints? How do you know where to look?

 

[slowbutfaithful]

Do you know how to find these living saints? How do you know where to look?

I don’t have a recipe to follow. I can only pass along some of my own personal experience.

I have had the pleasure of spending a considerable amount of time with some of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. Both in helping at Youth 2000 retreats, and at their nearby mission for the poor. Talk about simplicity!! These men are amazing peaceful images of Christ. They are ardent defenders of the faith, the Church and all her treasures. The few I know well deflect the ‘noise’ we hear from the world and focus their lives (and ours) upward. When I have complained about the complicated machinery and political meddling of the Church, they have rebuked me for questioning God’s will. “These things are not for us to worry about. We have enough to work on right here (finger pointing at the chest.) We are only asked to be faithful servants.” *

Another place to look is daily Mass or hour of adoration. More often than not, you’ll find one or two frail old women near the front row – in the same spot – nearly every day. They don’t make a fuss. Aren’t typically ‘involved’ in the Church in the sense of having an obligation to be there for some role in service. They’re just there – in prayer. Watch them. Many of them are praying for people like you and me – and we don’t even know their names.*

 

[slowbutfaithful]

One more thing came up while we’ve been having this discussion. I’m re-reading C.S. Lewis’ “The Great Divorce,” (one of my favorites). There’s a small bit in the preface that touches on your topic of the drive toward simplicity. He seems to argue precisely the opposite:

“Even on the biological level life is not like a river, but like a tree. It does not move toward unity but away from it and the creatures grow further apart as they increase in perfection. Good, as it ripens, becomes continually more different, not only from evil, but from other good.”

Wise words (ISTM).

 

[Stephen_C]

Hey TS,
I just wanted to add a few things here. I do not know what is in your heart or your reasons for not continuing with RCIA. Also I do not know were you live and the accessibility to another Catholic Church(s). Heck I do not even know your name. A little about me and my reversion back to the Catholic church. (The this will make a reader digest version look like war and peace) I was raised Catholic went to Catholic school and all. During College I drifted away. I was a Southern Baptist for about 15 years. Was asked to leave the Church I was a member of because I was going though a divorce and my Paster at the time did not think it was good for both myself and my soon to be ex wife to be members of the same church.
Anyways became a member of another SB Church. I was happy there until…We had a guest speaker/preacher who started his sermon about how the Catholic Church was a cult because they worshiped Mary as a God. I do not know what else he said I just walked out. So for 12 or so years I was not a member of any Church. It was just Jesus and me….well Jesus started to be less of a force in my life. I have since come back to the Catholic Church. The forces and reasons for this I will not expand on in this post. Anyways, my faith is simple. It is complete and it is fulfilling. I currently do not have a home Church that I am a member of yet. Still looking to the best fit I guess. I am still a member of the Church I grew up in. (small town Church with great community and a little more Orthodox then most) But it is 700 miles from were I live. There are 3 Catholic Churches I attend around here. And I have visited a few more. When you talk about what you see at the Catholic Church you have attended, well I am so sorry. I wish they were a better witness to you. But for me those folks or any folks for that matter is NOT the reason I am Catholic. Not the reason I came back home. Anyway’s, I always like to get to the Church about 30 min before mass. I spend the first 10 or so min just praying in Jesus presence. The rest I just observe other common average Joe Catholic’s like myself quietly file in genuflect before our lord, take their pew, and with no fanfare quietly pray. At that moment it is just a simple faith. And to me it speaks volumes. Now there are a few who will leave early and my be bored by it all. But I do not and can not judge their heart. I praise the lord that at least they are attending Church. And they are in my prayers.

 

[Truthstalker]

Since this has become an issue, with Petra at least, and I ran into this serendiptously in my reading today, Augustine had this to say:

newadvent.org/fathers/1401.htm

In of the Morals of the Catholic Church:

Chapter 34.—The Church is Not to Be Blamed for the Conduct of Bad Christians, Worshippers of Tombs and Pictures
…
75. Do not summon against me professors of the Christian name, who neither know nor give evidence of the power of their profession. Do not hunt up the numbers of ignorant people, who even in the true religion are superstitious, or are so given up to evil passions as to forget what they have promised to God. I know that there are many worshippers of tombs and pictures. I know that there are many who drink to great excess over the dead, and who, in the feasts which they make for corpses, bury themselves over the buried, and give to their gluttony and drunkenness the name of religion. I know that there are many who in words have renounced this world, and yet desire to be burdened with all the weight of worldly things, and rejoice in such burdens. Nor is it surprising that among so many multitudes you should find some by condemning whose life you may deceive the unwary and seduce them from Catholic safety; for in your small numbers you are at a loss when called on to show even one out of those whom you call the elect who keeps the precepts, which in your indefensible superstition you profess. How silly those are, how impious, how mischievous, and to what extent they are neglected by most, nearly all of you, I have shown in another volume.

1. My advice to you now is this: that you should at least desist from slandering the Catholic Church, by declaiming against the conduct of men whom the Church herself condemns, seeking daily to correct them as wicked children. Then, if any of them by good will and by the help of God are corrected, they regain by repentance what they had lost by sin. Those, again, who with wicked will persist in their old vices, or even add to them others still worse, are indeed allowed to remain in the field of the Lord, and to grow along with the good seed; but the time for separating the tares will come. Or if, from their having at least the Christian name, they are to be placed among the chaff rather than among thistles, there will also come One to purge the floor and to separate the chaff from the wheat, and to assign to each part (according to its desert) the due reward.

There were in that day bad Catholics, and I doubt that there will cease to be bad Catholics anytime soon. Augustine made the same observation I had, more closely and with a greater number of and more evil men, yet he did not regard it, for the reasons he states, as a reason for not being Catholic.

 

[petra]

Since this has become an issue, with Petra at least, and I ran into this serendiptously in my reading today, Augustine had this to say:

newadvent.org/fathers/1401.htm

In of the Morals of the Catholic Church:

There were in that day bad Catholics, and I doubt that there will cease to be bad Catholics anytime soon. Augustine made the same observation I had, more closely and with a greater number of and more evil men, yet he did not regard it, for the reasons he states, as a reason for not being Catholic.

Thanks for sharing this, Truthstalker. This is exactly what I and others have tried to explain. The Catholic Church, as the true Church that Christ established, cannot be judged by the lack of faithfulness of some.