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stumbler
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Careful. Shattered prejudices ahead!
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Richard_Lamb
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Not anti-catholic just misguided…:dancing:
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Trento
Guest
**Rev. 7:13 John speaks with one of the departed: "One of the elders said to me “who are these in the white robes and from where do they come?” And I said, “Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation.” John had a living relationship with the martyrs in Christ in heaven. Did John practice NECROMANCY here?
The historical witness says that intercession of the saints was not a LATE “Roman Catholic” innovation, nor was it outside of the piety of the early Church.
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***Hundreds of pilgrims, buried in the Memoria of the ancient Appian Way (the Catacombs of St. Sebastian), invoke Peter and Paul, by etching short prayers on the slabs of stone of the triclia ( hall for funeral banquets, in the open air): "Paul and Peter, pray for Victor ect.
Novenas to Our Blessed Mother to pray for her Heavenly intercession with Our Lord Jesus Christ date back to the earliest day of Christianity. In some of the earliest catacombs going back to the very first Century, we find images of Mary and inscriptions pleading her intercession for the souls of the dead.
So the Spirit of truth Jhn 16:13 only guided the Church for 60 years or so then left till the 16th Century.
It is sad when Christians reject the plain Truth of the Scriptures and the historical witness of the early Church’s understanding about the Life in Christ, the connection between the living and the departed in Christ, the saints awareness of us and our struggles and their perfection in Christ after death and their continued prayers before the throne of God in the heavenly realm on the basis of fear or even hatred of Rome.
Given the way saints have sometimes been treated in the RC tradition, it seems the Reformers had no good options If only the pope can make a saint. If people were accustomed to think the pope stood between them and Christ, why not the saints as well.***
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Katholikos
Guest
I was taught anti-Catholicism in a Baptist Sunday School and from the pulpit for years and years as a Protestant. It’s still being taught. One can’t escape it; it’s preached, even at funerals.
Example: The president of the Alabama Christian Coalition just became a Catholic after years of study, and he tells of meeting a lady at a friend’s house who was preparing a Sunday School lesson on cults. The Catholic Church was one the “cults” under consideration.
I’ve been a Catholic now for many years. I have never heard a Protestant “church” or any of the world’s other religions even mentioned by the Catholic Church.
Anti-Catholicism is shot into most Protestants like vaccine, with repeated injections; it is assimilated into one’s blood. It destroys rationality. I came to the Catholic Church by way of atheism, but I’m free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I’m free at last!
Example: The president of the Alabama Christian Coalition just became a Catholic after years of study, and he tells of meeting a lady at a friend’s house who was preparing a Sunday School lesson on cults. The Catholic Church was one the “cults” under consideration.
I’ve been a Catholic now for many years. I have never heard a Protestant “church” or any of the world’s other religions even mentioned by the Catholic Church.
Anti-Catholicism is shot into most Protestants like vaccine, with repeated injections; it is assimilated into one’s blood. It destroys rationality. I came to the Catholic Church by way of atheism, but I’m free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I’m free at last!
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STJOMO
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Two words: Scrpture and Tradition. When was the Bible published? Maybe 200 years after Christ. Remember that before the Word of God was written down, it was passed orally. Given that gap, you cannot rely on Scripture alone.
Also remember: By your logic, if you ask a friend to pray for you, you are practicing idolatry.
Also remember: By your logic, if you ask a friend to pray for you, you are practicing idolatry.
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BobCatholic
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Maybe it is because Phil doesn’t want to encourage you from trying to change the subject
If you want to start a thread about praying to saints, go do so, but this thread is about anti-catholicism.
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Melissa
Guest
The other thread was started (I think it’s moved to page 2 already), which seems to illustrate that it’s a bit of a non-starter.
In any case, Phil’s links did address the issue of praying to saints, but since they’re not dead, the whole ‘praying to the dead’ accusation is a fair example of unfair statements made about Catholic beliefs and practices by those with an anti-Catholic bias (which is how this whole side issue came up).
What is anti-Catholic is the willingness to level all sorts of accusations with the ‘my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts’ mentality.
In any case, Phil’s links did address the issue of praying to saints, but since they’re not dead, the whole ‘praying to the dead’ accusation is a fair example of unfair statements made about Catholic beliefs and practices by those with an anti-Catholic bias (which is how this whole side issue came up).
What is anti-Catholic is the willingness to level all sorts of accusations with the ‘my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts’ mentality.
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chemcatholic
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While true in many cases, it is not true in all. I grew up attending a Baptist church, and I did not witness anti-Catholicism. There were times (not very often) when Catholicism was mentioned - the instances I remember generally were about praying to saints, but the subject was not discussed at length. While many of the church may have been very anti-Catholic, anti-Catholicism was by no means injected into the congregation like a vaccine.
That being said, when I first began learning about Catholicism, I regarded it as simply another denomination. I knew almost nothing about what the Church believes or teaches. Yes, I was opposed to a number of the teachings when I learned of them, but that’s simply because they contradicted what I had been learning my entire life, not because I had been subject to people spewing anti-Catholicism.
My point is that many Protestants only promote “anti-Catholicism” by teaching their beliefs, which sometimes happen to differ from that of the Church.
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cmom
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Every Sunday my aunt’s baptist church preached about Catholics being the whore of Babylon and how we were going to hell.
She was very surprised to find out priests didn’t do the same in reverse.
She was very surprised to find out priests didn’t do the same in reverse.
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centuri0n
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You are reinventing the term “death”. I suggest to you that if they are not dead, you are not alive – because you do not yet live as they live. You cannot equivocate on these terms and expect to actually form a reasonable argument.
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cmom
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Life is changed, but not ended.
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Melissa
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For the various Protestant churches to teach in the affirmative what they believe isn’t anti-Catholic, though. Where it becomes anti-Catholic is when they teach “we believe x, unlike those heathen Catholics who believe y”.
It’s important to remember that there isn’t a monolithic Protestant attitude towards Catholics/Catholicism–particularly when one comes from the ‘non-denominational Christian’ (as I did) background, where each individual congregation has only the loosest commonalities with other churches of their type, and while one may view Catholics as ‘our brothers in Christ with whom we share ministries such as our community’s food pantry even though we disagree on several theological issues’, another congregation five minutes drive away may see Catholics as ‘lost, unless they are baptized for real (infant baptism doesn’t count, but baptism is required for salvation, and if you get hit by a bus on the way to your baptism and die, you are out of luck–this position held at one of the churches I was once a member of)’, and another one 10 miles away may feature frothing 'the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon" sermons of 45-60 minutes duration (the sermon alone, that is–the whole service runs easily 2+ hours, and that doesn’t count the hour of Sunday school besides).
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centuri0n
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You’re saying that an “apologist” who calls Protestants “anti-Catholic” is not using a derogatory term?
I think you should re-read my original post in this thread, and consider that you really do not hear the term “anti-Protestant” because Protestant advocates do not resort to such useless name-calling. It is not because there are no unreasonable Catholics that you do not hear such a thing from Protestants: it is because calling a Catholic “anti-Protestant” is itself meaningless. By definition, based on the anathemas of Trent, the Catholic is against Protestantism. To layer on a term which implies irrational hatred does nothing to forward the cause of evangelizing Catholics.
I think you should re-read my original post in this thread, and consider that you really do not hear the term “anti-Protestant” because Protestant advocates do not resort to such useless name-calling. It is not because there are no unreasonable Catholics that you do not hear such a thing from Protestants: it is because calling a Catholic “anti-Protestant” is itself meaningless. By definition, based on the anathemas of Trent, the Catholic is against Protestantism. To layer on a term which implies irrational hatred does nothing to forward the cause of evangelizing Catholics.
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Melissa
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By this logic, the unborn can be said to be not alive, because they do not yet live as we live.
No, we simply take Our Lord seriously when he says, “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” We simply ‘see through a glass darkly’ now. The saints see face to face.
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centuri0n
Guest
He’s alive by your defintion – and I am sure he is in hell. I am certain he is changed and suffers eternally.
But by the Catholic definition of “prayer” and “death” being forwarded in this thread, it’s just a conversation. Is it because Hitler is a damned soul that conversing with him is wrong? I’ll bet someone could learn a lot from talking with a damned soul …
But by the Catholic definition of “prayer” and “death” being forwarded in this thread, it’s just a conversation. Is it because Hitler is a damned soul that conversing with him is wrong? I’ll bet someone could learn a lot from talking with a damned soul …
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Richard_Froggat
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Can you document this?
In JMJ, Richard
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centuri0n
Guest
… all common definitions of life to make the saints the same as you are right now.
Melissa:
If you deny that men die, or that the saints all died, you are denying the apostle’s words. Why do that? Why not just admit that all people die, some people are in the presence of the Lord after death, and others find themselves cast out of His presence in condemnation?
You don’t have to answer that question. It just seems that you have not considered it.
The issue is praying to God vs. praying to other beings.
That is actually another equivoation – a redefinition of “live”. The term is used to indicate mortal human life – and is accpeted by the Apostle when he writes, “it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.”
If you deny that men die, or that the saints all died, you are denying the apostle’s words. Why do that? Why not just admit that all people die, some people are in the presence of the Lord after death, and others find themselves cast out of His presence in condemnation?
You don’t have to answer that question. It just seems that you have not considered it.
Even if this is true, it doesn’t justify praying to those who now see face to face when there is no reason on Earth not to pray to Him who they see directly.
The issue is praying to God vs. praying to other beings.
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Churchmouse
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Good post, cent! I too have been labeled an “anti-Catholic” more times than I care to think about. It’s unfortunate that to disagree with Roman Catholic distinctives is to be labeled “anti-Catholic” and I’m not going to say that all Catholics are this way, but it has been my experience that most Catholics throw out this label in a very derogatory and misleading way, as if to imply a prejudice towards Catholicism as a whole.
Peace,
CM
Peace,
CM
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Melissa
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Untrue. I am simply pointing out that your logic would preclude the unborn from being alive. If you don’t wish to accept that outcome, then you need to review your premise of what it means to live. I have considered the question that you accuse me of not considering–and reached the conclusion that physical death does not equal spiritual death.
Even if? Come now, do you believe the words of Our Lord or not?
No, the issue is whether we can ask intercession from those who see face to face, not your false dichotomies nor playing of the Hitler card.
But might I ask:
Are you referring to Catholics engaged in evangelization, or to Protestants trying to take Catholics from the Church? I can see both readings as being plausible, but am unsure which one you mean.
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snuffy
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Dear Centurion
Yes, I think you are anti-Catholic. I don’t understand all you said in the first few posts. But as your anger grew through-out your other posts, it became obvious.
I have argued with Protestains on other message board, and failed miserably. When I look back at it now,(I just quit responding) I see the reason I quit, was that these Protestians were causing me to be angry, and to think bad thoughts of them. They called Catholics many terrible things. ( I have never, never, heard those hateful things from Catholics).
And like you they were on one track, and never, never listened to my responses.
I sorry but I don’t argue anymore.
I will pray for you, to Our Blessed Mother, who is very alive and active in the world. Thank you Jesus, for the gift of your Mother.
I also ask you Blessed Mother for you to intercede to your Son, for all your children who blaspheme you, and Your Church. Touch their hearts, O my Lord, because they are a very confused people.
Amen.
All my Love to Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
Snuffy
Yes, I think you are anti-Catholic. I don’t understand all you said in the first few posts. But as your anger grew through-out your other posts, it became obvious.
I have argued with Protestains on other message board, and failed miserably. When I look back at it now,(I just quit responding) I see the reason I quit, was that these Protestians were causing me to be angry, and to think bad thoughts of them. They called Catholics many terrible things. ( I have never, never, heard those hateful things from Catholics).
And like you they were on one track, and never, never listened to my responses.
I sorry but I don’t argue anymore.
I will pray for you, to Our Blessed Mother, who is very alive and active in the world. Thank you Jesus, for the gift of your Mother.
I also ask you Blessed Mother for you to intercede to your Son, for all your children who blaspheme you, and Your Church. Touch their hearts, O my Lord, because they are a very confused people.
Amen.
All my Love to Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
Snuffy
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