On the Treatment of Gay Parishioners: A Request for advice

[CopticChristian]

Thank you very much for the resources. I really appreciate them, and I am reviewing them now.

Sorry about the confusion caused by my post–I tried to stick with the term gay-identified consistently, but slipped up.

A high-school aged boy (young man) is preparing to be confirmed. He has attended meetings with a GLBT support group and identifies as a homosexual.

This statement causes me to be concerned that you do not understand the Secular point of view that is promoted by a pro-Homosexually driven agenda, commencing with the APA.

 

[jamesjoseph72]

The OP is apparently a parent of one of the young people doing the ostracising. The one being ostracised is a celibate young man who identifies as homosexual but is living by the rules of the church. Since the young man himself is not sinning at all in this instance, your opinions of the APA, therapy for gay people, etc are neither here nor there.

Coptic: I do understand your point about the genesis of homosexuality, and I understand how it is reflective of the definition of homosexuality from the CCC 2357. I am not arguing that nor calling that part of the catechism into question

DexUk: You have described the predicament precisely.

Though it would be simpler if the young man chose not to identify himself as homosexual, he chooses to do so and sees this as directly relevant to the portions of the catechism as presented in my OP.

 

[DexUK]

Then it is important for that parent to be fully aware of …

The Secular point of view

The Catholic Physician/Therapist point of view

and that would include an understanding of what it is they are dealing with…without understanding you are just giving unreasoned advice.

We know what - or rather who - is being dealt with:

It’s a celibate homosexual youth who understands his faith and is living by it but is being deliberately excluded from activities by other youths simply on account of the knowledge they have about this youth’s sexual orientation.

The catechism treats sexual orientation in its own right as morally neutral. Since the young man who experiences homosexual desires is not actually acting on his homosexual desires, then nobody, not the other young people, not you, not me, has any justification for concentrating on his orientation in deciding what to do or not do.

No discussion about therapy is required. The secular world is not at issue here. The young homosexual man is living exactly as he is required to by the Church. There is no need to widen the conversation into issues surrounding homosexual therapy (since he doesn’t need it) or the secular understanding of homosexuality (since he is living well within the religious understanding of it, to the point of uniting his trials with those of Christ). What matters is how his is treated by his peers, and ensuring that they don’t pick on him for something that isn’t actually having an effect on them (since he is acting sinlessly in this regard).

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic: I do understand your point about the genesis of homosexuality, and I understand how it is reflective of the definition of homosexuality from the CCC 2357. I am not arguing that nor calling that part of the catechism into question

DexUk: You have described the predicament precisely.

Though it would be simpler if the young man chose not to identify himself as homosexual, he chooses to do so and sees this as directly relevant to the portions of the catechism as presented in my OP.

Church teaching…

Male and Female he created them…

The Church has no position on SSA, genesis, etc…it exists…

If you accept the Secular world=Born That Way=Essentialism…then you accept the LGBT support group and identity as a Homosexual.

You are not your behavior and if you uderstand that then when speaking to your children you can explain this and help them understand that the LGBT support group and identifying as a homosexual is not in the best interest of anyone.

If you accept that no one is born gay, no one is born homosexual, then as you teach your children, those same children can have a dialogue, rather than bully the child. Chidlren teach other children what their parents teach them.

Is it possible that this child has been influenced by the Secular world and believes that they were born that way? What a service you would provide by educating your family and other families about the Born that Way=Essentialism=Secular lie…because in doing so, you relieve the conversation of the stress of…poor kid…he was born that way…no he wasn’t…and there are places available for the child to decompress the situation…

Rather than just addressing the bullying, invoke understanding…if you don’t then the Secular world will brain wash the child and everyone else that this is the way it is and the kid is doomed…

Do as you like, however if you believe that Cancer will dissolve with coffee enemas and in fact they don’t…then when someone tells you the truth about it and educates you…you may find yourself believing differently…

 

[CopticChristian]

We know what - or rather who - is being dealt with:

It’s a celibate homosexual youth who understands his faith and is living by it but is being deliberately excluded from activities by other youths simply on account of the knowledge they have about this youth’s sexual orientation.

The catechism treats sexual orientation in its own right as morally neutral. Since the young man who experiences homosexual desires is not actually acting on his homosexual desires, then nobody, not the other young people, not you, not me, has any justification for concentrating on his orientation in deciding what to do or not do.

No discussion about therapy is required. The secular world is not at issue here. The young homosexual man is living exactly as he is required to by the Church. There is no need to widen the conversation into issues surrounding homosexual therapy (since he doesn’t need it) or the secular understanding of homosexuality (since he is living well within the religious understanding of it, to the point of uniting his trials with those of Christ). What matters is how his is treated by his peers, and ensuring that they don’t pick on him for something that isn’t actually having an effect on them (since he is acting sinlessly in this regard).

Then you should be pleased and should have nothing further to offer.

 

[DexUK]

Coptic: I do understand your point about the genesis of homosexuality, and I understand how it is reflective of the definition of homosexuality from the CCC 2357. I am not arguing that nor calling that part of the catechism into question

DexUk: You have described the predicament precisely.

Though it would be simpler if the young man chose not to identify himself as homosexual, he chooses to do so and sees this as directly relevant to the portions of the catechism as presented in my OP.

True, it might have been easier if he’d not identified himself as homosexually attracted (albeit that he doesn’t act on such desires) but he is only telling the truth about himself. Heterosexual people do that all the time: simply by virtue of their actions, they reveal their orientation (i.e. by dating, talking about their boy/girlfriends, etc). This young man should not be penalised simply because he tells the truth about himself.

 

[CopticChristian]

True, it might have been easier if he’d not identified himself as homosexually attracted (albeit that he doesn’t act on such desires) but he is only telling the truth about himself. Heterosexual people do that all the time: simply by virtue of their actions, they reveal their orientation (i.e. by dating, talking about their boy/girlfriends, etc). This young man should not be penalised simply because he tells the truth about himself.

and here is a perfect opportunity for having the understanding, through education, a friend might share with this child…you know, you don’t always have to tell people what you are thinking and feeling…boundary formation is always a good thing and this child appeared not to have learned boundaries…you don’t tell everyone, all the time, what you think and feel, and speaks volumes for some dysfunction within the family of origin…this may be the problem…

It may be an opportunity to engage the family of this child and educate them, share concern with them, that their child should not be bullied, but also let them know that there are resources available, as posted in the Reformation for Secular Homosexual Thinking…letting the parents of the child know that the APA and the likes have been taken over by Homosexuals promoting acceptance of Homosexuality…

It is possible that by educating your own family, your child, befriending the family and the child of the other family that you engage in a friendship of understanding that would aid this child and provide trust as you provide accurate information and guidance that would be better than any LGBT support group…

Just realize that there are ready willing and able Secularists ready to educate and lead and you will find many Catholics supporting the promotion of the agenda of the APA.

 

[CopticChristian]

One suicide is “too many.”

We agree, however to invoke a cause without foundation is sentiment.

 

[jamesjoseph72]

Rather than just addressing the bullying, invoke understanding…if you don’t then the Secular world will brain wash the child and everyone else that this is the way it is and the kid is doomed…

Do as you like, however if you believe that Cancer will dissolve with coffee enemas and in fact they don’t…then when someone tells you the truth about it and educates you…you may find yourself believing differently…

I’m not sure how you think I’m disagreeing with you in spirit. I accept the following as true:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

I thought my reference to your previous posts indicated my acceptance of your own framing. But maybe there is a further point to clarify. Do you believe that the youth’s identification as homosexual should be addressed with that youth? Is this something he should not discuss or admit but reject as irrelevant in his coming into the Faith?

 

[DexUK]

and here is a perfect opportunity for having the understanding, through education, a friend might share with this child…you know, you don’t always have to tell people what you are thinking and feeling…boundary formation is always a good thing and this child appeared not to have learned boundaries…you don’t tell everyone, all the time, what you think and feel, and speaks volumes for some dysfunction within the family of origin…this may be the problem…

Whether or not the fact that the young man should or should not have divulged this information about himself, it’s too late now. That cat is already out of the bag.

In any case, the fact that others have the knowledge is no justification for them discriminating against this young man, who is not acting sinfully. The catechism is completely clear on this matter. It doesn’t say that homosexual people are to keep their orientations a secret. It says that they are not to be discriminated against unjustly on account of their orientation.

It seems to me that you’re attempting to pin at least some of the blame on the way this young man is being treated on him, the victim. The only people who are to blame for actions are those who carry them out.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m not sure how you think I’m disagreeing with you in spirit. I accept the following as true:

I thought my reference to your previous posts indicated my acceptance of your own framing. But maybe there is a further point to clarify. Do you believe that the youth’s identification as homosexual should be addressed with that youth? Is this something he should not discuss or admit but reject as irrelevant in his coming into the Faith?

I would not address the identity that this child professed except to point out, after you have educated yourself, a gentle understanding…

If it happened that my child, my family was educated as I pointed out…and if it happened that this child was in my home I would ask questions…

I understand that you believe you are homosexual…if yes…

May I ask you this…

Is it my understanding you want to live chaste and celibate? Yes
Is it my understanding you are Catholic? Yes

Son, you know, there are some things that are important to believe, some things important to tell people and some that are not…you appear to be bright, you appear to be sincere…may I be honest with you?

If I were in your shoes, I would think about telling too many people about how you feel about your attraction to anyone…if your parents understand, tell them…I have no problem if you tell me…but understand, if you don’t know people well enough to know you can trust them…sometimes it is better not to tell them everything you would tell your parents or me…would you be OK with that…

now let’s you and my son lets go get a hamburger…Ok…

 

[CopticChristian]

In any case, the fact that others have the knowledge is no justification for them discriminating against this young man, who is not acting sinfully. The catechism is completely clear on this matter. It doesn’t say that homosexual people are to keep their orientations a secret. It says that they are not to be discriminated against unjustly on account of their orientation.

It seems to me that you’re attempting to pin at least some of the blame on the way this young man is being treated on him, the victim. The only people who are to blame for actions are those who carry them out.

Whether or not the fact that the young man should or should not have divulged this information about himself, it’s too late now. That cat is already out of the bag

.

No it is not. It is not too late. I pointed out how I would handle this with my child. If this child trusted me and I caused this child to trust me and in time understood that you can’t trust everyone…it is possible…just maybe, since I have children and perhaps you do not…

children can say things one day and the next day say another…if someone said to this kid…hey you like boys…he could easily be taught to say…“hey that was yesterday…let us just play chess”…and move on…

Nothing is set in stone in childhood, and you would know that if you were a parent, and you would know that if you had children…

and I would tell this kid…you can trust your parents and me…and if someone gives you a hard time let me know and I will work with you to resolve it…I have done that…I am a parent…

it is never too late…

 

[Auntie_A]

A few of my speculations:

I would make sure my kid would never bully ANYONE to begin with; if he did it anyway, I would get the whole family to keep an eye on him and keep him in place. THERE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES! I would raise my kids to know that they are to be chaste until married. I would also teach them to treat a homosexual as a human being and deserving of Christian love and respect. Of course, I would teach them the difference between the “gay life” versus being a homosexual, but the love and respect rule would still stand: Love the sinner, hate the sin, and I would mention other sins to despise besides homosexuality.

I would invite the other kid and his family to dinner and I would show sincere interest in him and his future. I would have modelled this throughout the years so my kid would not grow up to be a bully/snob; perhaps my kid would be his friend. I would be like my Mom and reach out to many different people in a warm, inclusive, Christian way.

 

[90Domer]

James,

I am going to answer the question purely from the excluded standpoint. My background: my son in on the autism spectrum but is very high functioning (actually, I loathe that term) and was mainstreamed in our public school system until we chose to pull him. I have gone and spoken to other parents and educated them on autism so that they knew what about my son made him different. After doing so, I took it upon myself to ask the parents if their child could join my child in a day of fun as a way of breaking down barriers. It worked wonders!

Now I have to say that autism does not have the religious overtones that you are dealing with here. However, I still think some of the same tactics could be applied in reverse. I think having the excluded child’s family over for a cookout would be a nice ice-breaker, as would talking to your son and his buddies about the wrong example they are setting. And I think the parent who confided in you should also be charitably reminded that this young man is carrying a heavy cross that doesn’t need to be made heavier by his son’s behavior.

 

[jamesjoseph72]

I would invite the other kid and his family to dinner and I would show sincere interest in him and his future. I would have modelled this throughout the years so my kid would not grow up to be a bully/snob; perhaps my kid would be his friend. I would be like my Mom and reach out to many different people in a warm, inclusive, Christian way.

I think having the excluded child’s family over for a cookout would be a nice ice-breaker, as would talking to your son and his buddies about the wrong example they are setting. And I think the parent who confided in you should also be charitably reminded that this young man is carrying a heavy cross that doesn’t need to be made heavier by his son’s behavior.

Thank you both for the advice that I should reach out to him and his family. Also, thank you 90Domer for the advice regarding a conversation with the parent that confided in me.

 

[CopticChristian]

A few of my speculations:

I would make sure my kid would never bully ANYONE to begin with; if he did it anyway, I would get the whole family to keep an eye on him and keep him in place. THERE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES! I would raise my kids to know that they are to be chaste until married. I would also teach them to treat a homosexual as a human being and deserving of Christian love and respect. Of course, I would invite the other kid and his family to dinner and I would show sincere interest in him and his future. I would have modelled this throughout the years so my kid would not grow up to be a bully/snob; perhaps my kid would be his friend. I would be like my Mom and reach out to many different people in a warm, inclusive, Christian way.

I would teach them the difference between the “gay life” versus being a homosexual, but the love and respect rule would still stand: Love the sinner, hate the sin, and I would mention other sins to despise besides homosexuality.

I agree with everything you say with the exception of mentioning other sins. I would reserve that for a question. If the question was asked about concerns for actions related to homosexuality then I would put it in perspective to the 6th commandment and other sins against Chastity…and point to the Catechism as it regards the 3rd part…

Life in Christ, morality, growing Holy as our God is Holy and that is a calling for all regardless of what sin we commit and with grace strive not to commit…so we are all in the same boat…

 

[CopticChristian]

James,

I am going to answer the question purely from the excluded standpoint. My background: my son in on the autism spectrum but is very high functioning (actually, I loathe that term) and was mainstreamed in our public school system until we chose to pull him. I have gone and spoken to other parents and educated them on autism so that they knew what about my son made him different. After doing so, I took it upon myself to ask the parents if their child could join my child in a day of fun as a way of breaking down barriers. It worked wonders!

Now I have to say that autism does not have the religious overtones that you are dealing with here. However, I still think some of the same tactics could be applied in reverse. I think having the excluded child’s family over for a cookout would be a nice ice-breaker, as would talking to your son and his buddies about the wrong example they are setting. And I think the parent who confided in you should also be charitably reminded that this young man is carrying a heavy cross that doesn’t need to be made heavier by his son’s behavior.

I totally agree. Engaging the family, befriending the family, providing this child that was wronged another ally and perhaps asking my own child to lead the way by example and profess that any hurt hurled to this child hurts them because “he is my friend” and a good friend and if you knew him you would want him as your friend too…

 

[walterfiat]

jamesjoseph72,

I like the way I am hearing many faithful Catholics refer to people bearing this cross as “having same-sex attraction” and not as “being gay.” I think it frames the problem more correctly as a burden rather than as an identity (as it has already been pointed out, “Male and female He created them…”).

Also, there is a FABULOUS article in the current (May-June 2013) Catholic Answers Magazine concerning this topic that you NEED to read. The article could possibly be used in some way to properly catechize the youth and their parents at your parish. It might also be a source of encouragement for the afflicted young man.

It’s called “The Nature of Man” by Daniel Mattson. I was hoping to find it online and link it for you, but I am having no luck with that.

 

[CopticChristian]

jamesjoseph72,

I like the way I am hearing many faithful Catholics refer to people bearing this cross as “having same-sex attraction” and not as “being gay.” I think it frames the problem more correctly as a burden rather than as an identity (as it has already been pointed out, “Male and female He created them…”).

Also, there is a FABULOUS article in the current (May-June 2013) Catholic Answers Magazine concerning this topic that you NEED to read. The article could possibly be used in some way to properly catechize the youth and their parents at your parish. It might also be a source of encouragement for the afflicted young man.

It’s called “The Nature of Man” by Daniel Mattson. I was hoping to find it online and link it for you, but I am having no luck with that.

We agree…and while there are those that know not what they speak of like this…

but he is only telling the truth about himself.

in reality this child is expressing an inner experience and I would assume may be confused and has very little understanding of the world at large as most children do not. We are not our behavior. We are not angry, we act angry and when anyone wants to identify another by their behavior, thoughts, feelings, beliefs, bells and whistles should go off to say…NO.

 

[jamesjoseph72]

I like the way I am hearing many faithful Catholics refer to people bearing this cross as “having same-sex attraction” and not as “being gay.” I think it frames the problem more correctly as a burden rather than as an identity (as it has already been pointed out, “Male and female He created them…”).

I am starting to understand that even my thread title referring to this youth as a “gay parishioner” is part of the problem of my own thought and understanding, That had also not occurred to me until you pointed it out in this post, walterfiat.