On this rock I build My Church

[truthlovingorthodox]

Peter was able to believe Jesus is the Son of God through revelation from God the Father and this revelation from God the Father would the church be built on the most important thing the rock being that Jesus is the Son of God for without one believing that all other teachings would not save one. In the Coptic church I grew up in which I have not left yet because I am still discerning Gods will we believe the church is built on the faith of Peter which is shared with the other apostles. Even if the apostolic age is still active I believe the apostles of today like the great apostles of the past should judge rightly for their judgements can err if it is not from the Holy Spirit but if they do not know they should not condemn. I believe the gates of hades will not prevail against any Christian even those outside the church because they believe in Jesus as Son of God and He would guide them into all truth through the Holy Spirit but I am just wondering to see the truth and see if Catholic Church can help me if I was to convert if they accept me as Catholic for thinking it may be true God chose Peter to first teach His truth to inspire us to find it ourselves but without him we can still find as I say below

The question is would all the apostles be able to preserve the teachings that would not allow hades to prevail or only Peter and the Roman Catholic Church did Jesus choose to preserve true belief in Jesus and all His words because God may bless the Roman Catholic Church to be able to have God’s revelations to them because He chose St Peter but that does not mean they are infallible and truly seeking God. Just that the pope can find out what Jesus taught if he is as faithful as Peter but the Orthodox churches believe every member can find out the truth or you will find the truth together. For where two or three are gathered in My name I am in the midst of them what does the Catholic Church believe ? If it believes the Pope will be infallible without hearing also the bishops of the Catholic Church I don’t think so but I think the Catholic Church believes the pope like Peter who says we have come to know you are the Christ understands that faith in Jesus teachings is found together even if Peter is chosen to confess first

Continued next post

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

I believe St. Peter is first among equals. I don’t believe the Roman pope is needed to teach the orthodox and we can find out the truth from God on our own but if they are faithful God will choose to give them first but we will still know the truth without them but God gives to them first we don’t need them even if they fall into heresy we can have the fullness of truth. Paul said he is not in any way inferior to the most eminent apostles. He said Peter and John seemed to be pillars. He went to Peter first but only to get St. Peter’s blessing so that Peter can tell others Paul is from God.

Because Peter does not own the teaching of God though he can be blessed because flesh and blood does not reveal even Peter but God the Father Himself reveals things to us and gives us the Holy Spirit to know who guides us into all truth. Even if one need to be baptised which may be just to be among those who are saved first because hades and the last day may not happen or you say purgatory if it includes non Catholics may have people who will be saved in it. The final judgement may not happen until those Christians who rejected baptism unwillingly or unknowingly would be tested to see if they would now accept the church when it is revealed baptism is true. They will have no loss unless perhaps they could have known it is the truth even then I do not know or if for some reason God thinks they should have joined but we are not to judge and to know if there is loss

But even if one needs to be baptised God is able to lead them to it like Cornelius and he can convince others some people labor and others enter into their labor

So I believe all churches can know the full truth and find life but I am willing to convert to prove that and/or to be proven wrong. I want to convert because I feel I hurt people with some posts here even though I hurt people from my church too I think it may help both because they may not want to see me because I was judgemental but they may accept me if I prove to have a changed heart and been able to correct my errors and to be able to teach the truth with wisdom or know it more accurately and sensitively and promote it inoffensively in all the churches of God or change anything in my beliefs that is wrong even if the Catholic Church produces that change they will be happy
as long as I accept their church as equally apostolic and unique too.
If I convert to the Catholic Church would people be offended if I train as a monk in the Coptic church without actually being ordained as a monk because once you are ordained you can’t leave it so they may never ordain me if I plan to leave it
I just want to know if I am missing something in the Coptic church so I am not false to anyone. They may not train me because I am catholic but if I say I will convert back to the Coptic church if you prove me wrong I think it deserves God to make them help me. Even if God may not prove me wrong but only other Coptic people because I don’t belong in the Coptic church anymore because of my sins

 

[Reuben_J]

Jesus left behind a Church, singular.

 

[Dan_Defender]

The Copts separated from the Catholic Church when they refused to accept the decision of the Fourth Ecumenical Council (at Chalcedon) on the two natures of Christ. However, in 1973 a Common Christological Declaration was signed by Pope Paul VI and the Coptic Pope Shenouda III. This was an important step toward eventual unity, but future dialogue will be necessary in order to reach agreement on the nature of the Church and the papal office.

 

[MT1926]

WOW you got a lot going on here. Maybe you could pick one topic and we can discuss it. I had some trouble pulling out some of the things you were trying to say so I will just respond to a few things that jumped out at me.

the most important thing the rock being that Jesus is the Son of God for without one believing that all other teachings would not save one.

Not denying that Jesus is the Rock. However, if you believe this is the only meaning of this verse how do you interpret the significance of Jesus changing Peter’s name from Simon to Rock? Not only do name changes signify something of great importance on the Bible, but to actually change someones name to Rock and have everyone call you Rock for the rest of your life knowing full well that this isn’t the Rock you plan on building your Church on seems like a cruel joke from Jesus, doesn’t it?

I believe the gates of hades will not prevail against any Christian even those outside the church because they believe in Jesus as Son of God and He would guide them into all truth through the Holy Spirit

This sounds like relativism. The gates of hades not prevailing in it’s basic sense means not teaching error. Which means you are basically saying the Christian who proclaims Baptism is necessary is correct and the Christian who teaches it is not necessary is also correct. How can both be correct?

if they accept me as Catholic for thinking it may be true God chose Peter to first teach His truth to inspire us to find it ourselves but without him we can still find

I’m not sure where you are going with this. First how could you convert to any faith without believe what they believe? How would this statement be any different than saying I wonder if that Bible only church will accept me even though I believe we can find God’s truth without ever hearing the Gospel message or knowing anything about the truth of Jesus?

The question is would all the apostles be able…

Sorry you lost me on this one. I’m not sure of your exact question here. About the only thing I can say here is someone always has to be in charge to keep order and make the final decision.

even if Peter is chosen to confess first

Do you see any significance in Peter being chosen to confess first?

Also have you asked yourself if Peter if Jesus intended all of the other Apostles to be equal with Peter why didn’t He change their names as well?

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

I believe St. Peter is first among equals. I don’t believe the Roman pope is needed … we can have the fullness of truth

How is your claim in this statement any different than every Protestant denomination that makes the exact same claim?

He went to Peter first but only to get St. Peter’s blessing so that Peter can tell others Paul is from God.

But still you have to ask yourself if Paul was truly equal why did he need St. Peter’s blessing? Think about it the people back then wanted to know the truth of the Gospel and didn’t want to waste their time believing those who only claimed to be sent preach. They wanted proof that what they preach is what Jesus intended to be preached. They knew their could only be one truth, they knew not everyone had the truth and they knew their was only one way to know who had the truth. The ones sent from the Apostles.

The real question here is why do people no longer care whether or not a preacher has St. Peter’s blessing to preach TRUTH?

Because Peter does not own the teaching of God …

No one is claiming ownership, not sure why you see it that way. The only thing to keep in mind is there can only be ONE fullness of the Faith. Seeing how divided Christianity has become over the last 500 years it is hard for me to believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding all these Christians to the truth. Seems to me many many people are guiding themselves.

 

[MT1926]

Even if one need to be baptised which may be just to be among those who are saved

Perfect example of what I was getting at? You need to ask yourself is the words “EVEN IF” something you want in your theological interpretation of the truth?

Jesus said…3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

30 different people can have 30 different interpretations of this verse. Many will say “EVEN IF”. I say Jesus says he cannot see the kingdom of God. Have we as Christians watered down the Gospel so much that we can so easily set aside Jesus warnings and place them in the EVEN IF category? What happened to our fear of eternal punishment? Do we really feel we are entitled to heaven and God’s glory?

or you say purgatory if it includes non Catholics may have people who will be saved in it.

Not Catholic teaching. No one is saved in purgatory. It is not a second chance. Only those that have already been saved are deserving of final purification to enter heaven. The easiest way to think about it is. At this very moment do you still have a tendency to commit sins? For most of us that answer would be yes. Well if we die at this very moment will we go to heaven still having this tendency to sin or will Jesus take away (purge us) this tendency to sin so that we are perfectly clean to enter heaven?

So I believe all churches can know the full truth

How can all churches know full truth?

How can you know that you know what the full truth is?

I want to convert because I feel I hurt people with some posts

Not a good reason to convert. I would say you need to keep studying the Catholic faith and come to grips with a lot of your misunderstandings before you convert.

The rest was to confusing to me so I won’t try to respond.

God Bless

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

Thanks for your replies

My mum says wanting to explore catholicism is like a student in a university trying to prepare for an exam in a subject by studying exams of different universities and not focusing enough on his own university and so failing. Because I already am convinced my church has salvation and His Spirit works in it I just want to convert not to offend other catholics I may have hurt in 1 or more threads here. If I wasn’t convinced what my mum says does not apply.
Also I think the protestant interpretation may be right and communion is given to people as they contemplate on the saviours life and death so they eat His flesh and drink His blood because they believe in His redemption and so their spirit is fed by God’s Spirit and the apostolic age is over or has become corrupted because the first apostles may never judge other christians maybe if they have not preached to them with miracles. If you say non christians do not need miracles as proof and they have to believe and if you say protestants also do not need miracles as proof I don’t think that is certain for protestants so you should not judge. Their conscience tells them that man is not reliable and only God’s word is reliable. Non christians can be convicted to believe in Jesus but many of them do not ask God for the truth at all. A protestant asks God for the truth and still does not have absolute proof he must join the church and he certainly probably would not believe all the doctrines. You see I am asking God to reveal the truth and yet I have no absolute proof that the catholic church is true and if I do believe I doubt it because I can not yet know vatican 2 is true and my conscience will not let me accept it but I have absolute proof Jesus is God and my conscience does not reprove me.

The apostles have to judge correctly the word of God and I believe they should loose protestants through Jesus words that He tells teaches them through the Holy Spirit if they are listening to understand how Jesus would judge them. Jesus said a kingdom divided against itself will not stand and that he who does not gather with Him scatters abroad meaning if they are not willing to do what God wants not if they are ignorant hopefully. You can’t say you know protestants will not be saved if they are not invincibly ignorant just because the church says that unless you really believe that. Otherwise it is a big sin. To judge them.
Obviously your arguments defeat me because I doubt every person needs to follow Jesus also. Vatican 2 teaches they don’t all some of them are invincibly ignorant. I have to know the gospel better so I can defend myself or you will attack the very people who are spreading the kingdom of God and God is working in them. The bible says he has hidden the things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes.

The meaning of loosing and binding is having the ability to reveal God’s forgiveness or to declare what He can reveal to man. If you think they have super power to allow some things and not allow and God will accept. Why don’t they just let protestants be saved?

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

Also vatican 2 believes protestants are saved if they are invincibly ignorant … how is that possible if the Lord says only those who eat His body He will raise at the last day? I have already explained my belief that protestants do eat His body and blood not only in the ordinance which they observe because the Lord instructed but as they contemplate His life and death and resurrection because it is evident they have spiritual life and there is more in the below link forum I made. But if communion is only given in 1 or more true churches how do you say people who are invincibly ignorant can be saved or that invincibly ignorant unbaptised people are saved when the Lord said unless you are born of water and the Spirit you can not enter the kingdom of God Assuredly.
I doubt God would make me have to accept the church to be saved when I can not accept with my conscience. He handed to me the bible so I can come to God through it. What has the church handed to me so I can easily accept it with my conscience.
Also a word in miracles. Miracles are ok for believers and those who want the truth not for unbelievers or those who don’t want it.

https://christianpost.createaforum....c-but-i-accept-them-i-am-christian-i-suppose/

 

[Fauken]

Also vatican 2 believes protestants are saved if they are invincibly ignorant … how is that possible if the Lord says only those who eat His body He will raise at the last day?

You think God condemns those who have never heard of Him nor His Catholic Church before and had no chance to participate in His Sacraments because they didn’t participate in the Sacraments? God is not limited by the Sacraments. God is also merciful. He would not punish someone because they didn’t know something they could never know nor participate in due to their life’s circumstances. That’s what it means to be saved due to invincible ignorance.

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

No I mean for those who heard I thought the church still considers some invincibly ignorant even if they have heard

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

You say “nor participate in due to their life’s circumstances” Jesus calls all to follow Him and deny themselves if they found the truth

 

[Fauken]

You say “nor participate in due to their life’s circumstances” Jesus calls all to follow Him and deny themselves if they found the truth

Yes, and if they’re invincibly ignorant, they can’t because they don’t know and it’s not available.

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

All who ask God of the truth God if He wants them to follow Him the full truth lets the gospel be preached to them and makes them aware. I am not aware of catholicism preached to me and being aware it is truth

 

[Fauken]

All who ask God of the truth God lets them know

So. Some child lives his whole life in the Saharan desert and dies at age 14. He is never taught about God or any religion for that matter. The very concept of God does not exist for him. How is he supposed to ask God who He is when he doesn’t know how to pray or that the concept of God even exists?

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

All creation witnesses to a God. Its sound has gone through all the earth. He has a spirit he is not an animal. All know God. Romans says “Although they knew God they did not glorify Him as God”. He doesn’t need to pray seriously just desire to live with God. God knows prayer before it is also said.

 

[Fauken]

Okay, he can know God through that. So what about the Sacraments? This child in question can’t participate in Confession or Communion, there’s no priest.

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

I do not know if even the gospel not just the opportunity to know the church is given to all but they are given all light necessary to be worthy to go to heaven. They are not without excuse and their conscience witnesses to them even about Gods eternal power and Godhead to atleast ask if they do not know. The gospel says that was the true light that gives light to every man who comes into the world. If God wants them to follow Him He will give the gospel.

 

[truthlovingorthodox]

I am worried going on forums will get me into sins. Can I be certain I can find the truth of the church without asking and going on forums? because I fear it may be the devil using my idleness against me when I should be working though I finished work for the day. Also the book of sirach says when you come to serve the Lord prepare yourself for temptation

 

[catholic1seeks]

I just want to know if I am missing something in the Coptic church so I am not false to anyone

You’re missing the visible source of unity Christ gave his church, the unifying rock of Peter.

You respect the great Easterner St. Maximus the Confessor, true? Can you agree with everything he says here:

The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the Most Holy Roman Church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed.

For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High. (Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)

How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate ……even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome. (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to pursuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and surpreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world. (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).