On Vatican Council II - Some questions about my research

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FredJMR

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Hello, friends.
I’m doing a research regarding what Vatican Council II did teach and what it didn’t teach. For the moments I will be reading the next documents:
  • The Vatican Council II
  • Crouan, Denis (2000). The Liturgy Betrayed
  • Catechism of Saint Pius X
  • Any Catechism after Vatican Council II
  • Brief Critical Study of the New Order of Mass - Ottaviani Intervention
  • Arnold, Matthew (2017). Confessions of a Traditional Catholic
  • Crouan, Denis (2001). The Liturgy After Vatican II
  • Dimond, M. y Dimond, P. (2007). La Verdad de lo que le Ocurrió a la Iglesia Católica Después del Segundo Concilio Vaticano, Vol. I [The truth of what happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican Council II, Vol. I]
  • Dimond, Pedro (2011). Fuera de la Iglesia Católica No Hay Absolutamente Ninguna Salvación [Outside the Catholic Church there is absolutely no salvation]
  • Pope Benedict XVI (2013). The Second Vatican Council. The four constitutions
The purpose of my research is finding whether Novus Ordo Missae is actually right or wrong (I haven’t been baptised yet and I’m doing this without any bias whether towards traditionalism or neo-conciliarism) and if there’s any actual heresy or not in the Second Vatican Council’s documents.
I’ll also try to do something like Saint Thomas Aquinas’ <> in order to answer all objections against Vatican Council II or traditionalism (depending on the results of my research) after being done with all the scrutinization.
I was wondering if you could recommend me anything else in order to achieve this goal.
 
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Not to sound harsh here. You are right to test the spirits, but that testing has already been done for you! Christ “claimed” that His Church is indefectible. I believe Him.

Have you not read or heard that the Council makes no error, but those who were heavily influenced by the 1960s-1970s world made some terrible errors, entering into theological license in the implementation of the council?

That is their bad, not the council’s.

Rather, go to the experts. Call Fr. Mitch Pacwa and Dr. David Anders.

The documents are great to read, but they should not be your barrier based on rumor and innuendo - which is all the Vatican II deniers possess.
 
po18guy said:
Mitch Pacwa and Dr. David Anders
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I really thank you for your answer, dear friend, nevertheless, this is not really for the sake of the whole church, since I know most traditionalist, stubborn enough not to reason about what they have caused to our Holy Mother, won’t probably pay attention to my research. This is mostly for the sake of my development as a theologist. I’m still an amateur, so I really want to make some progress regarding all these modern problems.
Also, I have some traditionalist friends that usually talk to me about what happened and that the Second Vatican Council is actually heretic (which I don’t truly believe, until I finish reading it) so I really want to give them sound and valid answers regarding these questions.
 
Well, Dr. Anders is trained both as a Protestant theologian, as well as Catholic - in that order. For that reason, I believe he could assist you by directing your efforts to some degree. Fr. Mitch Pacwa is just a wonderful all round resource. If he is not a theologian, I do not know who is! Except Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI - speaking of which, I consider him to be the world’s greatest living theologian. Have you read him?

EDIT: Welcome to CAF! If I sound gruff or curmudgeonly, well… I worked for 31 years in a no-nonsense job and we live in a world saturated with nonsense. I try my best, often failing, to cut through all of the prevailing nonsense. I love clarity.
I love simplicity. I fight over-thinking (especially mine), which is useless.

A very interesting juxtaposition: God, Who is utterly and completely Simple, and philosophical/theological study, which can be complicated beyond comprehension. The best to you on your journey, but don’t wait too long, lest you suffer the regrets of Saint Augustine!
 
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The other thing is that the V2 documents are very Catholic and written by people with decades of prayer and study behind them.

Few of us would have the background to properly evaluate them. {ETInsert: additionally, in order to evaluate whether the documents are heretical, you would have to know a lot of Catholic theology. Heresy is deviation from the truth. Without knowing the truth, you would not be able to judge whether something deviates from it.}

For me, the basis in belief in Catholicism is belief in the authority of the Church to teach.

Those who reject V2 have to think that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church, which Christ has promised to protect.

Those who reject the council do so by misunderstanding the documents and by not understanding the necessities in other parts of the world for some of the decrees.

And seriously, the ultra-Traditionalists are so focused on being right that they miss the point of being Catholic.

As you prepare for baptism, learn to pray and learn how to live and think as a Catholic. These are so much more important than the documents of V2. Think about it: there are lots of canonized saints who never read them 😉

Here is something I like to think about. the Ignatian First Principle and Foundation are the 4 paragraphs in italics.

Here is the Litany of Humility. At first, I wondered why some of the items were included, but I kept on praying and realized that it was the desires or fears that were the problem. Praying this prayer over a long period of time was, well, humbling for me 🙂

Welcome to CAF!!!
 
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Thank you so much for your tender replies regarding these problems. I’ll make sure to read what Pacwa, Anders, and Ratzinger.
As for the Litany of Humility and " Ignatian Discernment: First Principle and Foundation", I’ll read them too. Again, thank you so much.
 
Not to forget The Imitation of Christ, which “can be” even more important than scripture study. I believe the Lord rewars humility before knowledge, and Thomas á Kempis writes masterfully on humility.

Please avoid the voices of division and discontent on your list. Focus rather on the actual documents and what the humble and obedient teach about them.

One final thought: Pick a Patron Saint to intercede for you as you journey. You need not even believe in the Communion of Saints. That Saint will still hear you and intercede.
 
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Thank you. I was actually thinking about Saint Thomas Aquinas as my Patron Saint, nevertheless, I don’t know where to find prayers regarding Saint Thomas Aquinas. Could you help me out with that, please?
 
I do not believe that there is a formulaic prayer - most being simple pleas for intercession and the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. Speaking of Which, I would invoke him first:
Come, O Holy Spirit.
Fill the hearts of Thy faithful
and enkindle in them the fire of Thy Love.
Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created,
and Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.
Let us pray:
O God, Who didst illumine the hearts of the faithful
by the light of Thy Holy Spirit, grant that, in the same Spirit,
we may discern what is right and ever rejoice in His consolation.
Through Christ, our Lord.
Amen
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FredJMR said:
Hello, friends.
I’m doing a research regarding what Vatican Council II did teach and what it didn’t teach. For the moments I will be reading the next documents:
  • The Vatican Council II
  • Crouan, Denis (2000). The Liturgy Betrayed
  • Catechism of Saint Pius X
  • Any Catechism after Vatican Council II
  • Brief Critical Study of the New Order of Mass - Ottaviani Intervention
  • Arnold, Matthew (2017). Confessions of a Traditional Catholic
  • Crouan, Denis (2001). The Liturgy After Vatican II
  • Dimond, M. y Dimond, P. (2007). La Verdad de lo que le Ocurrió a la Iglesia Católica Después del Segundo Concilio Vaticano, Vol. I [The truth of what happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican Council II, Vol. I]
  • Dimond, Pedro (2011). Fuera de la Iglesia Católica No Hay Absolutamente Ninguna Salvación [Outside the Catholic Church there is absolutely no salvation]
  • Pope Benedict XVI (2013). The Second Vatican Council. The four constitutions
The purpose of my research is finding whether Novus Ordo Missae is actually right or wrong (I haven’t been baptised yet and I’m doing this without any bias whether towards traditionalism or neo-conciliarism) and if there’s any actual heresy or not in the Second Vatican Council’s documents.
I’ll also try to do something like Saint Thomas Aquinas’ <> in order to answer all objections against Vatican Council II or traditionalism (depending on the results of my research) after being done with all the scrutinization.
I was wondering if you could recommend me anything else in order to achieve this goal.
Click to expand...
There are no heresies in the Vatican II documents.
The OF Mass is a valid Mass as stated by the Church.
 
Your list looks to be a set of official Church documents and a few commentaries that lean toward one opinion. I may not be the best to offer resources, but you’re not going to arrive at a neutral or “scientific” conclusion this way. In fact, it may seem as though your mind is made up and you’re looking for things to support your preformed notions.
 
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FredJMR said:
I haven’t been baptised yet and I’m doing this without any bias whether towards traditionalism or neo-conciliarism
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It is not wise to delay Baptism. Better do it sooner, rather than later.
 
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FredJMR said:
The purpose of my research is finding whether Novus Ordo Missae is actually right or wrong (I haven’t been baptised yet and I’m doing this without any bias whether towards traditionalism or neo-conciliarism) and if there’s any actual heresy or not in the Second Vatican Council’s documents.
Click to expand...
FredJMR said:
I’m still an amateur, so I really want to make some progress regarding all these modern problems.
Click to expand...
As a word of cautious, this sounds like a major project, at least equivalent to a master degree in theology (ei, at least two years of full time research). The council put together 400 pages of documents that reference 1000’s of prior works from two millennia of Christian thought. This is not to discourage you, but just make sure you have realistic expectations.
 
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