On WHAT basis does your Church claim to be the One TRUE-Faith Church of the Bible?

[guanophore]

 They were eating the **bread** and drinking the **cup** in a way that was disrespectful to the body of believers. (1 Corinthians 10:17 *Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf*.)

I think there is an aspect of this that is accurate. But we are members one of another because we have become members of Christ, and when He gives us His Body to eat, we celebrate this unity. This does not negate the fact that people were getting sick because they were partaking in an unworthy manner. This could happen even when there was not a feast before Eucharist.

The fact that the Apostles taught this is preserved in the sacred liturgy and the prayers of the early church. The Didache is a good example of the early belief"

9:1 But as touching the eucharistic thanksgiving give ye thanks thus.
9:2 First, as regards the cup:
9:3 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the holy vine of Thy son David, which Thou madest known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:4 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:5 Then as regards the broken bread:
9:6 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the life and knowledge which Thou didst make known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:7 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:8 As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and being gathered together became one, so may Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom;
9:9 for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
9:10 But let no one eat or drink of this eucharistic thanksgiving, but they that have been baptized into the name of the Lord;
9:11 for concerning this also the Lord hath said:
9:12 {Give not that which is holy to the dogs.}

If it is only bread and wine, and not the Body and Blood, then how does it become “holy”? Things that become “holy” have been consecrated.

The commentaries I am looking at biblehub.com say that they aren’t recognizing the significance of the memorial meal and are not displaying worthiness of participating in this rite which is supposed to celebrate the new covenant in Jesus’ blood. I am not a Bible scholar, but that’s what I get out of it. I don’t think the content of what they eat affects whether they are guilty of behaving “unworthily” of Christ’s sacrifice.

I think this is a valid commentary on that part of the passage.

But one cannot eat and drink damnation unto oneself by misbehaving at the dinner table. That would require a gross sacrilege.

 

[susanlo]

I think there is an aspect of this that is accurate. But we are members one of another because we have become members of Christ, and when He gives us His Body to eat, we celebrate this unity. This does not negate the fact that people were getting sick because they were partaking in an unworthy manner. This could happen even when there was not a feast before Eucharist.

The fact that the Apostles taught this is preserved in the sacred liturgy and the prayers of the early church. The Didache is a good example of the early belief"

9:1 But as touching the eucharistic thanksgiving give ye thanks thus.
9:2 First, as regards the cup:
9:3 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the holy vine of Thy son David, which Thou madest known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:4 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:5 Then as regards the broken bread:
9:6 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the life and knowledge which Thou didst make known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:7 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:8 As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and being gathered together became one, so may Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom;
9:9 for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
9:10 But let no one eat or drink of this eucharistic thanksgiving, but they that have been baptized into the name of the Lord;
9:11 for concerning this also the Lord hath said:
9:12 {Give not that which is holy to the dogs.}

If it is only bread and wine, and not the Body and Blood, then how does it become “holy”? Things that become “holy” have been consecrated.

Being holy and consecrated is not the same thing as changing substance. It can remain bread and wine and be holy and consecrated (set apart). I don’t know of any Christians who would think that the bread and wine is not holy. They just don’t all believe that the substances change. I don’t see anything in the Didache that reveals a belief that the elements change in substance.

 

[Wannano]

I think there is an aspect of this that is accurate. But we are members one of another because we have become members of Christ, and when He gives us His Body to eat, we celebrate this unity. This does not negate the fact that people were getting sick because they were partaking in an unworthy manner. This could happen even when there was not a feast before Eucharist.

The fact that the Apostles taught this is preserved in the sacred liturgy and the prayers of the early church. The Didache is a good example of the early belief"

9:1 But as touching the eucharistic thanksgiving give ye thanks thus.
9:2 First, as regards the cup:
9:3 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the holy vine of Thy son David, which Thou madest known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:4 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:5 Then as regards the broken bread:
9:6 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the life and knowledge which Thou didst make known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:7 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:8 As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and being gathered together became one, so may Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom;
9:9 for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
9:10 But let no one eat or drink of this eucharistic thanksgiving, but they that have been baptized into the name of the Lord;
9:11 for concerning this also the Lord hath said:
9:12 {Give not that which is holy to the dogs.}

If it is only bread and wine, and not the Body and Blood, then how does it become “holy”? Things that become “holy” have been consecrated.

I think this is a valid commentary on that part of the passage.

But one cannot eat and drink damnation unto oneself by misbehaving at the dinner table. That would require a gross sacrilege.

As you well know I am not a theologian either but I will offer what my faith tradition has taught about eating in an unworthy manner. The Church is the body of believers who have believed Christ’s message and are following His teachings together in a common body. As individuals we all have different personalities and gifting and though we are all different we are to use our gifts and lives to build each other up in the unity of fellowship. The Church is where sins are confessed, joys and sorrows are shared and where we"wash each others feet" as we humble ourselves and serve each other as equals before God. In this way the bread is a symbol of all that in that bread is made up from individual kernels of wheat. Not all kernels of wheat are exactly the same, some are fat and full, some are skinny, some are twisted and misshapen but when ground together equally into flour they all contribute to the substance of bread and their individual characteristics are perfectly lost in each other. So for us to eat in an unworthy manner is to participate in Communion with false pretences. If we have aught with our brother or sister in the church, or have unconfessed sin in our lives and we present ourselves before God and the church as being “washed in the blood of the Lamb” and therefore clean when in fact we are not, to participate in Communion would be eating in an unworthy manner. Scripture calls each of us to discern ourselves.

 

[benhur]

. HOW COULD PAUL TEACH AS HE CLEARLY DOES, IF, IF IT WEREN’T THE LITERAL TRUTH?

HI PJM,

Well is it literal or just verbage when you pronounce before partaking, “Lord I am not worthy…”

Blessings

 

[Tomdstone]

Being holy and consecrated is not the same thing as changing substance. It can remain bread and wine and be holy and consecrated (set apart). I don’t know of any Christians who would think that the bread and wine is not holy. They just don’t all believe that the substances change. I don’t see anything in the Didache that reveals a belief that the elements change in substance.

This is a belief of many Protestants. The words of Consecration are to be taken metaphorically and there is not an essential change in substance.
BTW, I don’t see the words of Consecration in the gospel of St. John. Is there some reason why he left them out?

 

[guanophore]

Being holy and consecrated is not the same thing as changing substance. It can remain bread and wine and be holy and consecrated (set apart). I don’t know of any Christians who would think that the bread and wine is not holy. They just don’t all believe that the substances change. I don’t see anything in the Didache that reveals a belief that the elements change in substance.

As are many words and concepts that describe the nature of the Eucharist, “substance” is a later term. I have not seen it used in writings this early.

The major testimony comes from the lips of Jesus. The Apostles believed what He told them literally, and taught this to all their disciples. That is why those who did not believe this in the early Church were called “heretics”.

9And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.Luke 22

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread, 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”” 25In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”…I Cor, 11

Jesus even showed this to Paul directly, since he was not present at the last supper. Paul uses the word “anamnesis” (ἀνάμνησιν). This is the “antiforgettery” of the Passover, an enacted ritual during which a real lamb is eaten, and real wine is consumed. Jesus uses the celebration of deliverance to embed the mystery of His body and Blood, where He himself becomes the Bread of Life,and the Cup of salvation.

To say He did not really mean what He said at the Last Supper is the same as saying “let there be light” did not really mean that He created light!

 

[guanophore]

As you well know I am not a theologian either but I will offer what my faith tradition has taught about eating in an unworthy manner. The Church is the body of believers who have believed Christ’s message and are following His teachings together in a common body. As individuals we all have different personalities and gifting and though we are all different we are to use our gifts and lives to build each other up in the unity of fellowship. The Church is where sins are confessed, joys and sorrows are shared and where we"wash each others feet" as we humble ourselves and serve each other as equals before God. In this way the bread is a symbol of all that in that bread is made up from individual kernels of wheat. Not all kernels of wheat are exactly the same, some are fat and full, some are skinny, some are twisted and misshapen but when ground together equally into flour they all contribute to the substance of bread and their individual characteristics are perfectly lost in each other. So for us to eat in an unworthy manner is to participate in Communion with false pretences. If we have aught with our brother or sister in the church, or have unconfessed sin in our lives and we present ourselves before God and the church as being “washed in the blood of the Lamb” and therefore clean when in fact we are not, to participate in Communion would be eating in an unworthy manner. Scripture calls each of us to discern ourselves.

It is very good, and it does not contradict what the Apostles taught, though it does present a truncated concept of the Church.

 

[Tomdstone]

To say He did not really mean what He said at the Last Supper is the same as saying “let there be light” did not really mean that He created light!

No, because a lot of things that Jesus said are to be taken metaphorically and not literally:
Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.
Call no man father.
Unless you hate your mother and father you cannot be my disciple.
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away.
Woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. Woe to you who
are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn
and weep.
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring
peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, etc.
“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear …
Turn the other cheek -

 

[guanophore]

No, because a lot of things that Jesus said are to be taken metaphorically and not literally:
Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.
Call no man father.
Unless you hate your mother and father you cannot be my disciple.
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away.
Woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. Woe to you who
are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn
and weep.
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring
peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, etc.
“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear …
Turn the other cheek -

I see the difficulty. The written word was never intended to be separated from the Sacred Kerygma that created it. Once this has happened, the reader loses the context in which the words were penned.

 

[Tomdstone]

I see the difficulty. The written word was never intended to be separated from the Sacred Kerygma that created it. Once this has happened, the reader loses the context in which the words were penned.

Looking at the context, in the gospel of John we don’t see the words of Consecration.

 

[susanlo]

As you well know I am not a theologian either but I will offer what my faith tradition has taught about eating in an unworthy manner. The Church is the body of believers who have believed Christ’s message and are following His teachings together in a common body. As individuals we all have different personalities and gifting and though we are all different we are to use our gifts and lives to build each other up in the unity of fellowship. The Church is where sins are confessed, joys and sorrows are shared and where we"wash each others feet" as we humble ourselves and serve each other as equals before God. In this way the bread is a symbol of all that in that bread is made up from individual kernels of wheat. Not all kernels of wheat are exactly the same, some are fat and full, some are skinny, some are twisted and misshapen but when ground together equally into flour they all contribute to the substance of bread and their individual characteristics are perfectly lost in each other. So for us to eat in an unworthy manner is to participate in Communion with false pretences. If we have aught with our brother or sister in the church, or have unconfessed sin in our lives and we present ourselves before God and the church as being “washed in the blood of the Lamb” and therefore clean when in fact we are not, to participate in Communion would be eating in an unworthy manner. Scripture calls each of us to discern ourselves.

I think that is a good explanation.
It reminds me of a sermon by Augustine that I read last year:
earlychurchtexts.com/public/augustine_sermon_272_eucharist.htm

 

[susanlo]

As you well know I am not a theologian either but I will offer what my faith tradition has taught about eating in an unworthy manner. The Church is the body of believers who have believed Christ’s message and are following His teachings together in a common body. As individuals we all have different personalities and gifting and though we are all different we are to use our gifts and lives to build each other up in the unity of fellowship. The Church is where sins are confessed, joys and sorrows are shared and where we"wash each others feet" as we humble ourselves and serve each other as equals before God. In this way the bread is a symbol of all that in that bread is made up from individual kernels of wheat. Not all kernels of wheat are exactly the same, some are fat and full, some are skinny, some are twisted and misshapen but when ground together equally into flour they all contribute to the substance of bread and their individual characteristics are perfectly lost in each other. So for us to eat in an unworthy manner is to participate in Communion with false pretences. If we have aught with our brother or sister in the church, or have unconfessed sin in our lives and we present ourselves before God and the church as being “washed in the blood of the Lamb” and therefore clean when in fact we are not, to participate in Communion would be eating in an unworthy manner. Scripture calls each of us to discern ourselves.

I like this explanation.
It reminds me of a sermon I read from Augustine last year.
earlychurchtexts.com/public/augustine_sermon_272_eucharist.htm
“What you see on God’s altar, you’ve already observed during the night that has now ended. But you’ve heard nothing about just what it might be, or what it might mean, or what great thing it might be said to symbolize. For what you see is simply bread and a cup - this is the information your eyes report. But your faith demands far subtler insight: the bread is Christ’s body, the cup is Christ’s blood. Faith can grasp the fundamentals quickly, succinctly, yet it hungers for a fuller account of the matter. As the prophet says, “Unless you believe, you will not understand.” [Is. 7.9; Septuagint] So you can say to me, “You urged us to believe; now explain, so we can understand.” Inside each of you, thoughts like these are rising: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, we know the source of his flesh; he took it from the virgin Mary. Like any infant, he was nursed and nourished; he grew; became a youngster; suffered persecution from his own people. To the wood he was nailed; on the wood he died; from the wood, his body was taken down and buried. On the third day (as he willed) he rose; he ascended bodily into heaven whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. There he dwells even now, seated at God’s right. So how can bread be his body? And what about the cup? How can it (or what it contains) be his blood?” My friends, these realities are called sacraments because in them one thing is seen, while another is grasped. What is seen is a mere physical likeness; what is grasped bears spiritual fruit. So now, if you want to understand the body of Christ, listen to the Apostle Paul speaking to the faithful: “You are the body of Christ, member for member.” [1 Cor. 12.27] If you, therefore, are Christ’s body and members, it is your own mystery that is placed on the Lord’s table! It is your own mystery that you are receiving! You are saying “Amen” to what you are: your response is a personal signature, affirming your faith. When you hear “The body of Christ”, you reply “Amen.” Be a member of Christ’s body, then, so that your “Amen” may ring true! But what role does the bread play? We have no theory of our own to propose here; listen, instead, to what Paul says about this sacrament: “The bread is one, and we, though many, are one body.” [1 Cor. 10.17] Understand and rejoice: unity, truth, faithfulness, love. “One bread,” he says. What is this one bread? Is it not the “one body,” formed from many? Remember: bread doesn’t come from a single grain, but from many. When you received exorcism, you were “ground.” When you were baptized, you were “leavened.” When you received the fire of the Holy Spirit, you were “baked.” Be what you see; receive what you are. This is what Paul is saying about the bread. So too, what we are to understand about the cup is similar and requires little explanation. In the visible object of bread, many grains are gathered into one just as the faithful (so Scripture says) form “a single heart and mind in God” [Acts 4.32]. And thus it is with the wine. Remember, friends, how wine is made. Individual grapes hang together in a bunch, but the juice from them all is mingled to become a single brew. This is the image chosen by Christ our Lord to show how, at his own table, the mystery of our unity and peace is solemnly consecrated. All who fail to keep the bond of peace after entering this mystery receive not a sacrament that benefits them, but an indictment that condemns them. So let us give God our sincere and deepest gratitude, and, as far as human weakness will permit, let us turn to the Lord with pure hearts. With all our strength, let us seek God’s singular mercy, for then the Divine Goodness will surely hear our prayers. God’s power will drive the Evil One from our acts and thoughts; it will deepen our faith, govern our minds, grant us holy thoughts, and lead us, finally, to share the divine happiness through God’s own son Jesus Christ. Amen!”

Sermon 227 is similar: david.heitzman.net/sermons227-229a.html

 

[Tomdstone]

So for us to eat in an unworthy manner is to participate in Communion with false pretences. If we have aught with our brother or sister in the church, or have unconfessed sin in our lives and we present ourselves before God and the church as being “washed in the blood of the Lamb” and therefore clean when in fact we are not, to participate in Communion would be eating in an unworthy manner.

Not sure what it means to have false pretences. According to some reports, many married Catholics are using artificial birth control in their lives and yet receive Holy Communion.

 

[guanophore]

Looking at the context, in the gospel of John we don’t see the words of Consecration.

The context of the book of John is the Eucharistic Catholic Community. When it was written, they had celebrated Eucharist for as much as 50+ years. They understood what was written in the context of their lived faith.

And for further context, the entire New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic, which is why it is best understood from the perspective of the Catholic faith.

 

[susanlo]

The major testimony comes from the lips of Jesus. The Apostles believed what He told them literally, and taught this to all their disciples. That is why those who did not believe this in the early Church were called “heretics”.

Are you talking about Ignatius’ Letter to the Smyrnaeans?

 

[guanophore]

Not sure what it means to have false pretences. According to some reports, many married Catholics are using artificial birth control in their lives and yet receive Holy Communion.

This is a good example, when it comes to those who are well catechized, and yet in rebellion. There are some Catholics that don’t know their faith well, and proceed in ignorance, so their sin is not as great.

 

[Tomdstone]

The context of the book of John is the Eucharistic Catholic Community. When it was written, they had celebrated Eucharist for as much as 50+ years. They understood what was written in the context of their lived faith.

And for further context, the entire New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic, which is why it is best understood from the perspective of the Catholic faith.

I don’t see the words of Consecration in the gospel of John?

 

[mattp0625]

I don’t see the words of Consecration in the gospel of John?

Correct- there are many things not in scripture. The church existed before scripture and the latter came through the former.

Here is a short list of other things not found in scripture;

Wedding liturgy
Use of wedding rings
Baptismal liturgy
Age of reason
Protestant reformation
Scripture alone is the sole authority
Denominations
A list of the essential Christian beliefs or the nonessentials
Altar call
Invisible church

How did all these things come to be? The church, which came first, or the reformation.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t see the words of Consecration in the gospel of John?

I don’t see the word Trinity in Scripture anywhere. Does that mean the Church does not believe it?

 

[Tomdstone]

I don’t see the word Trinity in Scripture anywhere. Does that mean the Church does not believe it?

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,