On WHAT basis does your Church claim to be the One TRUE-Faith Church of the Bible?

[Don_Ruggero]

I’d like to know which services were held at a local Catholic Church that did not contain the Eucharist. You may have went to a speech or some other ecumenical event but if you went to a Catholic church for any Sunday or Daily Mass, then yes, the Eucharist was offered. Give me a break!

Why are you reacting in this fashion, please?

Many parishes celebrate some part of the Liturgy of the Hours – as does every monastic church – this does not involve the celebration of the Eucharist. When I am at the monastery, the round of services is (1) Vigils, (2) Morning Prayer, (3) Eucharist, (4) Mid Day Prayer, (5) Evening Prayer, (6) Night Prayer…thus out of six gatherings in the church over the course of the day, only one involves the celebration of the Eucharist.

In Lent, in parishes where I have been, we have Stations of the Cross twice per day on Fridays – once in the afternoon and once in the evening – and this of course does not involve the Eucharist. I also did weekly Holy Hours in Lent and I was the animator for the Catholic Charismatic Community’s healing/prayer service, which was apart from any celebration of the Eucharist – as was the Taizé prayer service that I did.

 

[steve_b]

That is exactly right. We have joint Easter services in our community where all Christians from numerous different denominational perspectives gather to share communion with all who are one in Christ. We are one in the bond of love. I am sure Jesus is pleased with this action and behavior. Christ is the central focus of our worship and the world will know we are Christians by our love and acceptance of one another.

Speaking of claims to be the One True Church

One has to ask…Where’s the PROOF!!!

Christ established one Church. It’s easy to prove by tracing it’s beginning back to the 1st century. The name of His Church is the Catholic Church #34 , there’s the proof properly referenced

 

[steve_b]

And that’s where we disagree. Because fundamentally the RCC sees the pope as having a power and position that no Protestant would agree he has to speak in abstentia for Christ

As I said, the promise of the keys is there and Jesus backs up His promises. It doesn’t matter that you disagree. Free will makes us culpable for our choices.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I’m not concerned Jesus would have any objection. We’re all one within the Christian Church despite denominational differences.

From Ut Unum Sint:
It happens for example that, in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters. Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”.
After my decades in the work of dialogue, the superiority of the methodologies of the last 50 years in every way to what preceded it in centuries past is just so evident, just as I have experienced the fruit derived from the new methodologies.

As but one of many possible exmples, Anglicanorum coetibus and how it was implemented was unimaginable in the pre-conciliar era. A group of Anglican priests, received into full communion with the Church of Rome as a stable body with their own jurisdiction and hierarchy.

They bring together with them many elements of their liturgical and spiritual patrimony – derived from the Reformers and from the subsequent great minds of the tradition that is properly theirs – which the Bishop of Rome incorporates into the liturgy and spiritual patrimony of being Catholic. This for the sake of this community but also so that the whole Church may be enriched by these spiritual gifts.

These clergy, on being ordained as Catholic priests, have an addition to the rite of ordination in their case, which is a prayer of thanksgiving and acknowledgement to God for the ministry they exercised in their previous circumstances.

To acknowledge and proclaim the work of the Spirit outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church. To confess that when the Orthodox celebrate the Eucharist, it is building up the whole Church. To speak of the relations as actually being in varying states of impaired communion. These are great advances in Catholic ecclesiology.

How much we owe to Saint John XXIII, Blessed Paul VI, the Council Fathers of Vatican II with the periti and to the post-conciliar popes who carry forward the reforms to the Church. As Catholics, we give thanks to God for the Spirit at work in the Church as these examples so vividly show.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

That is exactly right. We have joint Easter services in our community where all Christians from numerous different denominational perspectives gather to share communion with all who are one in Christ. We are one in the bond of love. I am sure Jesus is pleased with this action and behavior. Christ is the central focus of our worship and the world will know we are Christians by our love and acceptance of one another.

This is perfectly splendid! I am always delighted to read of these occurring. I share with you in response more from Pope Saint John Paul II’s Ut Unum Sint:
83. I have mentioned the will of the Father and the spiritual space in which each community hears the call to overcome the obstacles to unity. All Christian Communities know that, thanks to the power given by the Spirit, obeying that will and overcoming those obstacles are not beyond their reach. All of them in fact have martyrs for the Christian faith. Despite the tragedy of our divisions, these brothers and sisters have preserved an attachment to Christ and to the Father so radical and absolute as to lead even to the shedding of blood. But is not this same attachment at the heart of what I have called a “dialogue of conversion”? Is it not precisely this dialogue which clearly shows the need for an ever more profound experience of the truth if full communion is to be attained?
The witness of the martyrs had a powerful effect on both the Church and the society of Ancient Rome in the early Church. The martyrs of the 20th century…be they Catholic, Orthodox or emerging from that movement that was the Reformation…were powerful voices of the Spirit’s presence and work in believers who were not in canonical communion with each other. This has led to much reflection and new thought in the theological community and, indeed, from those who are the successors and heirs of the apostles – wherever they may be. I remember especially the words of John Paul II and of Benedict XVI on the impact upon them and their thought of the martyrs for Christ who were outside visible communion with Rome. They experienced this truth profoundly.

Again from Ut Unum Sint:

*21. /…/

This love finds its most complete expression in common prayer. When brothers and sisters who are not in perfect communion with one another come together to pray, the Second Vatican Council defines their prayer as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement. This prayer is “a very effective means of petitioning for the grace of unity”, “a genuine expression of the ties which even now bind Catholics to their separated brethren” /…/

1. /…/

Along the ecumenical path to unity, pride of place certainly belongs to common prayer, the prayerful union of those who gather together around Christ himself. If Christians, despite their divisions, can grow ever more united in common prayer around Christ, they will grow in the awareness of how little divides them in comparison to what unites them. If they meet more often and more regularly before Christ in prayer, they will be able to gain the courage to face all the painful human reality of their divisions, and they will find themselves together once more in that community of the Church which Christ constantly builds up in the Holy Spirit, in spite of all weaknesses and human limitations.

1. Finally, fellowship in prayer leads people to look at the Church and Christianity in a new way. It must not be forgotten in fact that the Lord prayed to the Father that his disciples might be one, so that their unity might bear witness to his mission and the world would believe that the Father had sent him (cf. Jn 17:21). It can be said that the ecumenical movement in a certain sense was born out of the negative experience of each one of those who, in proclaiming the one Gospel, appealed to his own Church or Ecclesial Community. This was a contradiction which could not escape those who listened to the message of salvation and found in this fact an obstacle to acceptance of the Gospel. Regrettably, this grave obstacle has not been overcome. It is true that we are not yet in full communion. And yet, despite our divisions, we are on the way towards full unity, that unity which marked the Apostolic Church at its birth and which we sincerely seek. Our common prayer, inspired by faith, is proof of this. In that prayer, we gather together in the name of Christ who is One. He is our unity.

/…/

1. Prayer, the community at prayer, enables us always to discover anew the evangelical truth of the words: “You have one Father” (Mt 23:9), the Father—Abba—invoked by Christ himself, the Only-begotten and Consubstantial Son. And again: “You have one teacher, and you are all brethren” (Mt 23:8). “Ecumenical” prayer discloses this fundamental dimension of brotherhood in Christ, who died to gather together the children of God who were scattered, so that in becoming “sons and daughters in the Son” (cf. Eph 1:5) we might show forth more fully both the mysterious reality of God’s fatherhood and the truth about the human nature shared by each and every individual.

“Ecumenical” prayer, as the prayer of brothers and sisters, expresses all this. Precisely because they are separated from one another, they meet in Christ with all the more hope, entrusting to him the future of their unity and their communion. Here too we can appropriately apply the teaching of the Council: “The Lord Jesus, when he prayed to the Father ‘that all may be one … as we are one’ (Jn 17:21-22), opened up vistas closed to human reason. For he implied a certain likeness between the union of the Divine Persons, and the union of God’s children in truth and charity”.*

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Good points but **the arrogant pride of the followers of the reformed churches has blinded them **to the point that no 100% concrete evidence will ever suffice. “They have eyes but do not see”. Sad.

To accuse whole categories of peoples is offensive and has no place in the light of contemporary directives from the Holy See on the topic of Christian unity and how dialogue is to be done – and what is inappropriate. I have confidence that Catholic Answers would, in every way, be in full compliance with and eagerly supportive of the norms that emerge from the Holy See.

It is also forbidden by forum rules to any way speak against the good faith of non-Catholics and when your approach is so broad, it necessarily applies to individuals since you are indicting every individual belonging to the collective group:

“It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs.”

 

[benhur]

Did God permit the prophets of Israel to leave and form little israels in protest of his people falling into error?

Hi CC

Actually He did. Sin /error divides. The twelve tribes split, into northern kingdom and southern kingdom.

Beyond their prophets/kings, their "theologians/rabbis split also(Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc ), but they all remained “Jewish”, from whence came our Salvation.

Do you feel Jesus called for the reformers to cause division and schism

Quite a micro view. I did post of the problems the church had. One of those problems was not reforming, in the face of reformers (but later,after the schism).

OT presents a picture of times when the God’s chosen light/presence on this Earth did right in confronting false leaders (Korah). But, she also had times when true prophets were ignored, and persecuted even.

Schism takes two . The Didache says, “Do not make a schism but pacify those that contend”.

*Again this is old history *. Todays spirituality and the quality of our relationship with God need not be limited by the further sectarianism that followed.

Blessings

 

[Don_Ruggero]

And that’s where we disagree. Because fundamentally the RCC sees the pope as having a power and position that no Protestant would agree he has to speak in abstentia for Christ

Indeed. Which is why the Popes have sought and continue to seek new ways in which the Petrine ministry can better serve unity and not hinder it. We as individual Catholics – and especially those of us who are priests and theologians – have an obligation to echo the voice of the Popes in acknowledging the horrible errors of the past and in seeking new ways to journey ahead together. From Ut Unum Sint:

*88. /…/ [A]s I acknowledged on the important occasion of a visit to the World Council of Churches in Geneva on 12 June 1984, the Catholic Church’s conviction that in the ministry of the Bishop of Rome she has preserved, in fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition and the faith of the Fathers, the visible sign and guarantor of unity, constitutes a difficulty for most other Christians, whose memory is marked by certain painful recollections. To the extent that we are responsible for these, I join my Predecessor Paul VI in asking forgiveness.

1. It is nonetheless significant and encouraging that the question of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome has now become a subject of study which is already under way or will be in the near future. It is likewise significant and encouraging that this question appears as an essential theme not only in the theological dialogues in which the Catholic Church is engaging with other Churches and Ecclesial Communities, but also more generally in the ecumenical movement as a whole. /…/ After centuries of bitter controversies, the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities are more and more taking a fresh look at this ministry of unity.
2. The Bishop of Rome is the Bishop of the Church which preserves the mark of the martyrdom of Peter and of Paul: “By a mysterious design of Providence it is at Rome that [Peter] concludes his journey in following Jesus, and it is at Rome that he gives his greatest proof of love and fidelity. Likewise Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, gives his supreme witness at Rome. In this way the Church of Rome became the Church of Peter and of Paul”. /…/
3. /…/

It is important to note how the weakness of Peter and of Paul clearly shows that the Church is founded upon the infinite power of grace (cf. Mt 16:17; 2 Cor 12:7-10). Peter, immediately after receiving his mission, is rebuked with unusual severity by Christ, who tells him: “You are a hindrance to me” (Mt 16:23). How can we fail to see that the mercy which Peter needs is related to the ministry of that mercy which he is the first to experience? And yet, Peter will deny Jesus three times. The Gospel of John emphasizes that Peter receives the charge of shepherding the flock on the occasion of a threefold profession of love (cf. 21:15-17), which corresponds to his threefold denial (cf. 13:38). Luke, for his part, in the words of Christ already quoted, words which the early tradition will concentrate upon in order to clarify the mission of Peter, insists on the fact that he will have to “strengthen his brethren when he has turned again” (cf. 22:32).

1. All this however must always be done in communion. When the Catholic Church affirms that the office of the Bishop of Rome corresponds to the will of Christ, she does not separate this office from the mission entrusted to the whole body of Bishops, who are also “vicars and ambassadors of Christ”. The Bishop of Rome is a member of the “College”, and the Bishops are his brothers in the ministry.

Whatever relates to the unity of all Christian communities clearly forms part of the concerns of the primacy. As Bishop of Rome I am fully aware, as I have reaffirmed in the present Encyclical Letter, that Christ ardently desires the full and visible communion of all those Communities in which, by virtue of God’s faithfulness, his Spirit dwells. I am convinced that I have a particular responsibility in this regard, above all in acknowledging the ecumenical aspirations of the majority of the Christian Communities and in heeding the request made of me to find a way of exercising the primacy which, while in no way renouncing what is essential to its mission, is nonetheless open to a new situation. For a whole millennium Christians were united in “a brotherly fraternal communion of faith and sacramental life … If disagreements in belief and discipline arose among them, the Roman See acted by common consent as moderator”.

In this way the primacy exercised its office of unity. When addressing the Ecumenical Patriarch His Holiness Dimitrios I, I acknowledged my awareness that "for a great variety of reasons, and against the will of all concerned, what should have been a service sometimes manifested itself in a very different light. But … it is out of a desire to obey the will of Christ truly that I recognize that as Bishop of Rome I am called to exercise that ministry … I insistently pray the Holy Spirit to shine his light upon us, enlightening all the Pastors and theologians of our Churches, that we may seek—together, of course—the forms in which this ministry may accomplish a service of love recognized by all concerned".

1. /…/ Could not the real but imperfect communion existing between us persuade Church leaders and their theologians to engage with me in a patient and fraternal dialogue on this subject, a dialogue in which, leaving useless controversies behind, we could listen to one another, keeping before us only the will of Christ for his Church and allowing ourselves to be deeply moved by his plea “that they may all be one … so that the world may believe that you have sent me” (Jn 17:21)?*

 

[total_Catholic]

This is a very cogent point you bring up. It goes straight to the topic IMV, who “is the ONE TRUE-FAITH Church of the bible”

Your issue is really over authority. Who has it, who doesn’t, who can take it away.

You agree the Catholic Church has the authority to pass on apostolic succession in holy orders to you in that sacrament, when you were in the Church.

Now you’re saying, the Catholic Church, who gave you this sacrament, CAN’T say your authority in that sacrament is null and void, because of the changes you made in that sacrament.

Bottom line, Jesus is the one backing up the promises (and the authority ) of the keys He gave to Peter and in extension Peter’s successors… That authority doesn’t go away from the papacy.

Let’s draw another example where authority was challenged.

When 1000’s of Jesus followers who he fed with a few loaves and fish, followed Jesus across the lake to get the rest of the story, the next day THEY left Him in mass, over disagreeing with His teaching, [Jn6:66…]

So:

• did that show Jesus has no authority because they disagreed with Him? No
• Or because they all left Him? No
• How did Jesus handle their leaving?
• He let them go!
• Jesus already gave them what the consequences are if they didn’t follow Him and left it at that. They made their choice

I personally find that passage, one of the scariest passages in scripture.

But to your points you bring up.

We’re dealing with supernatural realities here. What the pope ruled on, is already reality. He doesn’t have to argue the point, anymore than Jesus had to argue the point with those who left HIM.

That’s all I’m saying

SPOT. ON. CASE. CLOSED. Awesome!

 

[total_Catholic]

Why are you reacting in this fashion, please?

Many parishes celebrate some part of the Liturgy of the Hours – as does every monastic church – this does not involve the celebration of the Eucharist. When I am at the monastery, the round of services is (1) Vigils, (2) Morning Prayer, (3) Eucharist, (4) Mid Day Prayer, (5) Evening Prayer, (6) Night Prayer…thus out of six gatherings in the church over the course of the day, only one involves the celebration of the Eucharist.

In Lent, in parishes where I have been, we have Stations of the Cross twice per day on Fridays – once in the afternoon and once in the evening – and this of course does not involve the Eucharist. I also did weekly Holy Hours in Lent and I was the animator for the Catholic Charismatic Community’s healing/prayer service, which was apart from any celebration of the Eucharist – as was the Taizé prayer service that I did.

Sorry Father. I get worked up discussing my faith. Nothing personal.

 

[total_Catholic]

I just want to know when some Protestant groups are going to come out and offer apologies as well for the atrocities committed against Catholics as well. They always seem to want us to apologize?

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7374

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1191

 

[Abu]

The following expresses clearly what many here know as the reason Christ founded His Catholic Church.

Crisis Magazine
May 17, 2016
Have We Forgotten the Hard Sayings of Christ?
Christian Browne
crisismagazine.com/2016/giving-preference-christian-migrants
Extract:
“Pope Francis wants the Church to “accompany” people through their struggles and tribulations. And well it should. Principally, this should mean the proclamation of all the demands of the Gospel in full and the incessant offering of the sacraments, especially in the Holy Mass and Confession, as the means to receive the grace necessary to truly follow the Lord. Those churchmen so enamoured of Protestantism and obsessed with ecumenism should be pleased to teach that we can hardly hope to imitate the life of Christ by our own poor efforts, but must reply upon God’s grace. So by all means, let the Church accompany the faithful.

“However, it is neither merciful nor salutary to obscure the Church’s teachings. Nor is it correct to imply that, because the Church judges acts, it also judges the actors. Like its ultimate source, doctrine exists not to condemn but to save. The fact that doctrinal instruction can make people angry, embarrassed or engender feelings of guilt does not negate its truth.

“**Of course, there is no need to present the teaching in a harsh manner, and the fact is the Church has hardly done so in the recent past. **With respect to the current controversy over the marriage teaching, for example, Familiaris Consortio clearly presents the age-old understanding of indissolubility with language full of compassion for those who struggle in this area. The depiction of a Church full of clerical stone-throwers is simply a fiction proffered as an excuse for indulging in the Kasperite enterprise in the first place.”
[My emphases].

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Sorry Father. I get worked up discussing my faith. Nothing personal.

You have an obligation to conform yourself to the mind of the Holy Father and to the mind of the Holy See. As the Holy Father decreed, even individual expressions in these matters touching upon what the Church’s positions are must conform to “the teaching and the directives of its Pastors”. This applies all the more in the public forum

From The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism

*55. “Concern for restoring unity pertains to the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike. It extends to everyone, according to the potential of each, whether it be exercised in daily Christian living or in theological and historical studies”. Bearing in mind the nature of the Catholic Church, Catholics will find, if they follow faithfully the indications of the Second Vatican Council, the means of contributing to the ecumenical formation, both of individuals and of the whole community to which they belong. Thus the unity of all in Christ will be the result of a common growth and maturing. For God’s call to interior conversion and renewal in the Church, so fundamental to the quest for unity, excludes no one

For that reason, all the faithful are called upon to make a personal commitment toward promoting increasing communion with other Christians.*

As the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity reminded everyone so eloquently in paragraph 57:

b) Knowledge of the history of divisions and of efforts at reconciliation, as well as the doctrinal positions of other Churches and ecclesial Communities will make it possible to analyse problems in their socio-cultural context and to discern in expressions of faith what is legitimate diversity and what constitutes divergence that is incompatible with Catholic faith

c) This perspective will take account of the results and clarifications coming from theological dialogues and scientific studies. It is even desirable that Christians should write together the history of their divisions and of their efforts in the search for unity

d) In this way the danger of subjective interpretations can be avoided, both in the presentation of the Catholic faith and also in Catholic understanding of the faith and of the life of other Churches and ecclesial Communities

e) In so far as it progresses well, ecumenical formation makes concern for the unity of the Catholic Church and concern for communion with other Churches and ecclesial Communities inseparable

f) It is implicit in the concern for this unity and this communion that Catholics should be concerned to deepen relations both with Eastern Christians and Christians in communities issuing from the Reformation.

1. Dialogue is at the heart of ecumenical cooperation and accompanies all forms of it. Dialogue involves both listening and replying, seeking both to understand and to be understood. It is a readiness to put questions and to be questioned. It is to be forthcoming about oneself and trustful of what others say about themselves. The parties in dialogue must be ready to clarify their ideas further, and modify their personal views and ways of living and acting, allowing themselves to be guided in this by authentic love and truth. Reciprocity and mutual commitment are essential elements in dialogue, as is also a sense that the partners are together on an equal footing. Ecumenical dialogue allows members of different Churches and ecclesial Communities to get to know one another, to identify matters of faith and practice which they share and points on which they differ. They seek to understand the roots of such differences and assess to what extent they constitute a real obstacle to a common faith. When differences are recognised as being a real barrier to communion, they try to find ways to overcome them in the light of those points of faith which they already hold in common

1. On the local level there are countless opportunities for exchanges between Christians, ranging from informal conversations that occur in daily life to sessions for the common examination in a Christian perspective of issues of local life or of concern to particular professional groups (doctors, social workers, parents, educators) and to study groups for specifically ecumenical subjects. Dialogues may be carried on by groups of lay people, by groups of clergy, by groups of professional theologians or by various combinations of these. Whether they have official standing (as a result of having been set up or formally authorized by ecclesiastical authority) or not, these exchanges must always be marked by a strong ecclesial sense.

1. Catholic participants in dialogue follow the principles about Catholic doctrine set down by Unitatis Redintegratio

Sub-elements of Paragraph 87 remind us of crucial principles:

c) the conviction that ecumenical dialogue is not a purely private matter between persons or particular groups but that** it takes place within the framework of the commitment of the whole Church and must in consequence be carried out in a way that is coherent with the teaching and the directives of its Pastors**;

d) a readiness to recognize that the members of the different Churches and ecclesial Communities can help us better to understand and to expound accurately the doctrine and life of their Communities;

e) respect for the conscience and personal conviction of anyone who expounds an aspect or a doctrine of his or her own Church or its particular way of understanding Divine Revelation

"On March 25th, 1993, His Holiness Pope John Paul II approved this Directory, confirmed it by his authority and ordered that it be published. Anything to the contrary notwithstanding."

The norms therefore are binding.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

You have an obligation to conform yourself to the mind of the Holy Father and to the mind of the Holy See. As the Holy Father decreed, even individual expressions in these matters touching upon what the Church’s positions are must conform to “the teaching and the directives of its Pastors”. This applies all the more in the public forum

From The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism

55. “Concern for restoring unity pertains to the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike. It extends to everyone, according to the potential of each, whether it be exercised in daily Christian living or in theological and historical studies”. Bearing in mind the nature of the Catholic Church, Catholics will find, if they follow faithfully the indications of the Second Vatican Council, the means of contributing to the ecumenical formation, both of individuals and of the whole community to which they belong. Thus the unity of all in Christ will be the result of a common growth and maturing. For God’s call to interior conversion and renewal in the Church, so fundamental to the quest for unity, excludes no one

For that reason, all the faithful are called upon to make a personal commitment toward promoting increasing communion with other Christians.

As the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity reminded everyone so eloquently in paragraph 57:

b) Knowledge of the history of divisions and of efforts at reconciliation, as well as the doctrinal positions of other Churches and ecclesial Communities will make it possible to analyse problems in their socio-cultural context and to discern in expressions of faith what is legitimate diversity and what constitutes divergence that is incompatible with Catholic faith

You’re an inspiration Father.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I just want to know when some Protestant groups are going to come out and offer apologies as well for the atrocities committed against Catholics as well. They always seem to want us to apologize?

Expressions of regret are multilateral. Why do you say that they are not?

As just one example that we see in a document emerging from the Lutheran-Catholic dialogue and singularly relevant for today, From Conflict to Communion, we read:

*Catholic confession of sins against unity

1. Already in his message to the imperial diet in Nuremberg on 25 November 1522, Pope Hadrian VI complained of abuses and trespasses, sins and errors insofar as church authorities had committed them. Much later, during the last century, Pope Paul VI, in his opening speech at the second session of the Second Vatican Council, asked pardon from God and the divided “brethren” of the East. This gesture of the pope found expression in the Council itself, above all in the Decree on Ecumenism and in the Declaration on Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate).
2. In a Lenten sermon, “Day of Pardon,” Pope John Paul II similarly acknowledged guilt and offered prayers for forgiveness as part of the observance of the 2000 Holy Year. He was the first not simply to repeat the regret of his predecessors Paul VI and the council fathers regarding the painful memories, but actually to do something about it. He also related the request for forgiveness to the office of bishop of Rome. In his encyclical Ut Unum Sint, he alludes to his visit to the World Council of Churches in Geneva on 12 June 1984, admitting, “the Catholic conviction that in the ministry of the bishop of Rome she has preserved in fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition and faith of the Fathers, the visible sign and guarantor of unity constitutes a difficulty for most other Christians, whose memory is marked by certain painful recollections.” He then added, “As far as we are responsible for these, I join with my predecessor Paul VI in asking forgiveness.”

Lutheran confession of sins against unity

1. At its fifth Assembly in Evian in 1970, the Lutheran World Federation declared in response to a deeply moving presentation by Jan Cardinal Willebrands “that we as Lutheran Christians and congregations [are] prepared to acknowledge that the judgment of the Reformers upon the Roman Catholic Church and its theology was not entirely free of polemical distortions, which in part have been perpetuated to the present day. We are truly sorry for the offense and misunderstanding which these polemic elements have caused our Roman Catholic brethren. We remember with gratitude the statement of Pope Paul VI to the Second Vatican Council in which he communicates his plea for forgiveness for any offense caused by the Roman Catholic Church. As we together with all Christians pray for forgiveness in the prayer our Lord has taught us, let us strive for clear, honest, and charitable language in all our conversations.”
2. Lutherans also confessed their wrongdoings with respect to other Christian traditions. At its eleventh Assembly in Stuttgart in 2010, the Lutheran World Federation declared that Lutherans “are filled with a deep sense of regret and pain over the persecution of Anabaptists by Lutheran authorities and especially over the fact that Lutheran reformers theologically supported this persecution. Thus, the Lutheran World Federation… wishes to express publicly its deep regret and sorrow.*
   These statements were made all the more powerful by the paragraphs that preceded. They are cautionary, also for people living today:
   *231. When Catholics and Lutherans remember together the theological controversies and the events of the sixteenth century from this perspective, they must consider the circumstances of the sixteenth century. Lutherans and Catholics cannot be blamed for everything that transpired since some events in the sixteenth century were beyond their control. In the sixteenth century, theological convictions and power politics were frequently interwoven with one another. /…/ In this complex arena of numerous factors, it is difficult to ascribe responsibility for the effects of specific actions to individual persons and to name them as the guilty parties.
3. /…/ One must not blame someone for following his or her conscience when it is formed by the Word of God and has reached its judgments after serious deliberation with others.
4. How theologians presented their theological convictions in the battle for public opinion is quite another matter. In the sixteenth century, Catholics and Lutherans frequently not only misunderstood but also exaggerated and caricatured their opponents in order to make them look ridiculous. They repeatedly violated the eighth commandment, which prohibits bearing false witness against one’s neighbor. Even if the opponents were sometimes intellectually fair to one another, their willingness to hear the other and to take his concerns seriously was insufficient. The controversialists wanted to refute and overcome their opponents, often deliberately exacerbating conflicts rather than seeking solutions by looking for what they held in common. Prejudices and misunderstandings played a great role in the characterization of the other side. Oppositions were constructed and handed down to the next generation. Here both sides have every reason to regret and lament the way in which they conducted their debates. Both Lutherans and Catholics bear the guilt that needs to be openly confessed in the remembrance of the events of 500 years ago. *
   It is co-published by the Holy See and may be found here:vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

 

[total_Catholic]

So let me ask you this Father. As somebody who was told while coming into the RCC from a Protestant background that the RCC was the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith founded by Christ and yet I have had my wayward moments I will admit, that if others follow their conscience to the best of their upbringing, they can find salvation and live in Heaven while I on the other hand who struggles mightily with Marian theology to the point of trying other churches before yet am afraid of burning in Hell for all eternity because the RCC tells that I will if I leave the RCC, that I will burn in Hell? How do I reconcile this?

Keep in mind, as a lonely man. Never been married, hardly any friends, trying to make the best of this, struggles with OCD, lust and masturbation, the one thing that would seem to keep me right, the teachings of the RCC, actually are torture because I cannot leave the RCC without burning in Hell for all eternity yet others can stay away from the RCC and inherit Heaven.

As I’ve told a confessor, I don’t live, I just exist. And with all of this confusion, sometimes, I wish I had the guts to end it all. Any advice YOU can give me would be a big help!

 

[mattp0625]

So let me ask you this Father. As somebody who was told while coming into the RCC from a Protestant background that the RCC was the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith founded by Christ and yet I have had my wayward moments I will admit, that if others follow their conscience to the best of their upbringing, they can find salvation and live in Heaven while I on the other hand who struggles mightily with Marian theology to the point of trying other churches before yet am afraid of burning in Hell for all eternity because the RCC tells that I will if I leave the RCC, that I will burn in Hell? How do I reconcile this?

Keep in mind, as a lonely man. Never been married, hardly any friends, trying to make the best of this, struggles with OCD, lust and masturbation, the one thing that would seem to keep me right, the teachings of the RCC, actually are torture because I cannot leave the RCC without burning in Hell for all eternity yet others can stay away from the RCC and inherit Heaven.

As I’ve told a confessor, I don’t live, I just exist. And with all of this confusion, sometimes, I wish I had the guts to end it all. Any advice YOU can give me would be a big help!

Hi there,

I believe the belief you cited was modified at Vatican II (if I’m not mistaken as to timing).

In any event, the Church teaches that other Christian denominations do not have the fullness of truth, which can lead to grave matters. The Church no longer teaches that those outside the RCC cannot find salvation at all.

Your chances are much better where you are, even if it is a struggle. God revealed the ordinary means to salvation by scripture and tradition of the Church - such as faith and the sacraments.

Could God act in an extraordinary way to save? Sure, He’s God. Yet, it is not wise to bank on these extraordinary means and ignore the ordinary means.

 

[total_Catholic]

Hi there,

I believe the belief you cited was modified at Vatican II (if I’m not mistaken as to timing).

In any event, the Church teaches that other Christian denominations do not have the fullness of truth, which can lead to grave matters. The Church no longer teaches that those outside the RCC cannot find salvation at all.

Your chances are much better where you are, even if it is a struggle. God revealed the ordinary means to salvation by scripture and tradition of the Church - such as faith and the sacraments.

Could God act in an extraordinary way to save? Sure, He’s God. Yet, it is not wise to bank on these extraordinary means and ignore the ordinary means.

I don’t mean to go off the way I do…I swear I don’t. Just utterly discouraged with life bro. I take everything WAY TOO PERSONAL. I apologize to those on this board that I have offended. Maybe I should go away for a while.

 

[mattp0625]

I don’t mean to go off the way I do…I swear I don’t. Just utterly discouraged with life bro. I take everything WAY TOO PERSONAL. I apologize to those on this board that I have offended. Maybe I should go away for a while.

No need to apologize, I can understand. It can be a struggle, I know this.

I just wanted to share what I know.

I am happy to help if I can.

 

[Abu]

mattp0625 #286
The Church no longer teaches that those outside the RCC cannot find salvation at all.

The Catholic Church never has.

In reality, Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved for Pope St Clement wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received, salvation even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].