On what basis was St Joan of Arc canonized?

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HashemEchad

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I use a traditionalist Catholic curriculum for homeschooling my girls (LONG story; there aren’t any Jewish curriculums, and so I just remove any religious content from the one I am using).

Anyway, in the 4th grade curriculum today, there was a sentence that read: “Saint Joan of Arc was a martyr for the Catholic Faith in the 15th _______” (century is the word to be filled in).

Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but as a lifetime Joan of Arc fan, I know she did not die as a martyr, technically.

The church excommunciated her for heresy, burned her at the stake, and then, centuries later (1920, under Pope Benedict XV), she was canonized, but NOT as a martyr, but as a VIRGIN.

Isn’t this right?
 
HashemEchad said:
I use a traditionalist Catholic curriculum for homeschooling my girls (LONG story; there aren’t any Jewish curriculums, and so I just remove any religious content from the one I am using).

Anyway, in the 4th grade curriculum today, there was a sentence that read: “Saint Joan of Arc was a martyr for the Catholic Faith in the 15th _______” (century is the word to be filled in).

Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but as a lifetime Joan of Arc fan, I know she did not die as a martyr, technically.

The church excommunciated her for heresy, burned her at the stake, and then, centuries later (1920, under Pope Benedict XV), she was canonized, but NOT as a martyr, but as a VIRGIN.

Isn’t this right?
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I think it was only about 30 years or so later that she was recognized as a saint. She was killed because she supposedly had a vision and they thought she was a witch due to it. Later authorities reversed the rulings. I don’t know whether she would technically be a martyr. I think a martyr is someone who is killed because of their faith. With her it was kind of true because she supposedly saw visions and she refused to recant. Consequently they tried her as a witch.
 
jimmy said:
I think it was only about 30 years or so later that she was recognized as a saint. She was killed because she supposedly had a vision and they thought she was a witch due to it. Later authorities reversed the rulings. I don’t know whether she would technically be a martyr. I think a martyr is someone who is killed because of their faith. With her it was kind of true because she supposedly saw visions and she refused to recant. Consequently they tried her as a witch.
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I know she was falsely accused of being a witch by the ENGLISH (a real credible source, NOT!)…remember, England was still Catholic then.

In MY view she died as a martyr because she claimed to receive visions/voices from Sts Margaret, Catherine and Michael, and the church told her her visions were from the devil. So in my view she died for her beliefs.

But in the church’s view, she did not, evidently.

I don’t know, its very confusing.
 
HashemEchad said:
I know she was falsely accused of being a witch by the ENGLISH (a real credible source, NOT!)…remember, England was still Catholic then.

In MY view she died as a martyr because she claimed to receive visions/voices from Sts Margaret, Catherine and Michael, and the church told her her visions were from the devil. So in my view she died for her beliefs.

But in the church’s view, she did not, evidently.

I don’t know, its very confusing.
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I don’t think it’s a case of either/or here - I mean early Christians like St Cecelia and St Agnes were definitely BOTH virgins and martyrs and were canonised as such. May’ve been a bit of politics involved - it’d be a bit of a slap to the French and English Churches whose bishops condemned Joan to declare her a martyr.

I think the Church probably stuck with virgin for Joan because that’s undoubted fact, whereas the case for her martyrdom is less clearcut.
 
HashemEchad said:
I know she was falsely accused of being a witch by the ENGLISH (a real credible source, NOT!)…remember, England was still Catholic then.

In MY view she died as a martyr because she claimed to receive visions/voices from Sts Margaret, Catherine and Michael, and the church told her her visions were from the devil. So in my view she died for her beliefs.
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Her visions were only condemned by the English (she’d been examined before and was told that her Voices were not from the Devil).

But in the church’s view, she did not, evidently.

I don’t know, its very confusing.

I don’t know why she wasn’t named a martyr…that’s an excellent question. I’ll have to look that one up. She’s my patron Saint, I believe she is a martyr because she did die defending the Truth.
 
she died because she had kicked English asses, not because she had visions. “Heresy” was just a convenient excuse for English to avenge their defeats, her trial was motivated politically.
 
latinmasslover said:
Her visions were only condemned by the English (she’d been examined before and was told that her Voices were not from the Devil).

But in the church’s view, she did not, evidently.

I don’t know, its very confusing.
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I don’t know why she wasn’t named a martyr…that’s an excellent question. I’ll have to look that one up. She’s my patron Saint, I believe she is a martyr because she did die defending the Truth.

I’d appreciate it, if you could check it out. I have tons of books about the Maid of Orleans, but don’t recall ever seeing any discussion of this.

You’re very fortunate to have her as your patron saint! She’s been my “best friend” since childhood (and perhaps the “best friend” of every other little girl, too!)
 
antimon said:
she died because she had kicked English asses, not because she had visions. “Heresy” was just a convenient excuse for English to avenge their defeats, her trial was motivated politically.
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BINGO! Somebody finally said what I was thinking in my gut!👍
 
Well she performed at least one miracle. And she followed God when it was difficult. She is usually not considered a martyr.
 
There is one story about Saint Joan that is especially moving to me…it was said that she went through a village where a woman had just lost a baby before it could be baptized, and she brought the baby back to life. 🙂
 
Did you ever see the old movie? Very good. I don’t know all that much about her, really; but I think she’s a good illustration of healthy patriotism. I can’t remember what book or magazine I was reading that made this point–maybe it was in First Things. When a (I think) Burgundian Bishop asked her if God hated the English (trying to trip her up), she said “No, God loves the English. But he loves them better in England.” Something like that. Her view seemed to be that every country had a right to its own land, and ought to stay out of the affairs of other nations when possible. (Not that she was a scholar, of course).

She was tried illegally, by the way. After her trial had progressed somewhat she appealed to the Pope, and according to Canon Law every Catholic has a right to appeal directly to the Pope, and be judged by him. They refused her request and proceeded to sentence her and have her punished in opposition to Canon Law.
 
HashemEchad said:
I use a traditionalist Catholic curriculum for homeschooling my girls (LONG story; there aren’t any Jewish curriculums, and so I just remove any religious content from the one I am using).

Anyway, in the 4th grade curriculum today, there was a sentence that read: “Saint Joan of Arc was a martyr for the Catholic Faith in the 15th _______” (century is the word to be filled in).

Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but as a lifetime Joan of Arc fan, I know she did not die as a martyr, technically.

The church excommunciated her for heresy, burned her at the stake, and then, centuries later (1920, under Pope Benedict XV), she was canonized, but NOT as a martyr, but as a VIRGIN.

Isn’t this right?
Click to expand...

Spot on 🙂 **When the Church is doing the persecuting, any Catholics it may kill are obviously not martyrs. **​

**The test is that, had she been put to death by anyone else, she would be a martyr. And if a rigged trial followed by treatment that makes impossible the keeping of the conditions necessary for not counting as “relapsed” is not persecution - I have no idea what is. What was she to do: avoid male attire & be raped - or wear it, & be burned as a relapsed heretic ? **
**The whole episode recalls the suffering of Christ: there is the same ungodly & murderous combination of Church & State, the same “reconciliation” of enemies who have a common purpose, the same prostitution of the authority of the Church to unholy ends. On second thoughts, it’s a good think she’s not called a martyr; the Church is unworthy of Saints like that. **
**The whole business displays the Church at its very worst. 😦 **
(Sorry to be cynical :o :D)
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:
**The whole business displays the Church at its very worst. 😦 **
(Sorry to be cynical :o :D)
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I have a nuanced disagreement with that statement. The whole business displays how nationalism and politics can divert Christians, even members of the hierarchy, away from true fidelity. The Church foresaw such failings of men, which is why even in St. Joan’s Day there was (and still is) a provision in Canon Law that permits every Catholic under any kind of trial the right to appeal directly to the Pope. St. Joan appealed to the Pope; feeble men, entangled in nationalist politics, broke Canon Law by letting the trial proceed further. There were, I believe, bishops who objected but were ignored.

Thus, the ordeal is not the Church’s failing, but the failing of some of her members.
 
HashemEchad said:
I use a traditionalist Catholic curriculum for homeschooling my girls (LONG story; there aren’t any Jewish curriculums, and so I just remove any religious content from the one I am using).

Anyway, in the 4th grade curriculum today, there was a sentence that read: “Saint Joan of Arc was a martyr for the Catholic Faith in the 15th _______” (century is the word to be filled in).

Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but as a lifetime Joan of Arc fan, I know she did not die as a martyr, technically.

The church excommunciated her for heresy, burned her at the stake, and then, centuries later (1920, under Pope Benedict XV), she was canonized, but NOT as a martyr, but as a VIRGIN.

Isn’t this right?
Click to expand...
I won’t answer something new to the people here: the answer to your question is YES.
Now, how you presented things is rather different from the reality. It’s not “the” Church who burned her! Even though Joan of Arc told the bishop that she was dying through his hands. A bishop isn’t the whole Church all by himself! And she was burned by the “secular arm”…
 
Moreover, if this question was to double-check this fact, why didn’t you, HashemEchad, go to “Ask an apologist”? 😉
 
Lapell said:
Moreover, if this question was to double-check this fact, why didn’t you, HashemEchad, go to “Ask an apologist”? 😉
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I’ve tried that route before, but when I did once, the question never was posted.
 
consumedconvert said:
She was tried illegally, by the way. After her trial had progressed somewhat she appealed to the Pope, and according to Canon Law every Catholic has a right to appeal directly to the Pope, and be judged by him. They refused her request and proceeded to sentence her and have her punished in opposition to Canon Law.
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And actually she was arrested not because of particular suspicious teachings but because her presence had helped the Frenchmen to finally react and fight the Englishmen. The Englishmen thought that by having her convicted of heresy and sorcery (witchcraft?) the Frenchmen would not have as many chances of winning against them. And that bishop, I think his last name was Cauchon, I think he himself had some ambitions, and maybe a leaning toward Jansenism which is condemned by the Vatican… so he had some bias, unfortunately. Ultimately, she was executed because of her patriotism and because she already was considered an inspiring symbol in the eyes of the French people. Are these enough grounds for her to be considered a martyr? To me, it’s hard to say.
 
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