L
Lapell
Guest
I like how it sounds: “You don’t have to be Catholic!”
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L
Lapell
Guest
**Jansenism was not an issue until 200 years later. FWIW.
**I am sorry not to have told it accurately as I would have rather liked. That was false testimony even though I didn’t lie per se, that was not done purposely. But I knew there was something about the way bishop Cauchon acted that was wrong and going away from the Catholic Church’s usual proper ways of dealing with those things. Somebody in a later post stated properly what it was. Thanks.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
You don’t have to be Catholic (or French, for that matter) to like Joan of Arc, anymore than you need to be Jewish to like bagels!I like how it sounds: “You don’t have to be Catholic!”
C
childofmary1143
Guest
Just so that you know, I have E-Mailed Matt Abbott, about this and he will E-Mail a Priest that he knows about this and will give me a response shortly.
This has really peaked my curiosity and would like an explanation.
This has really peaked my curiosity and would like an explanation.
L
Lapell
Guest
Bagels, or Jewish songs, or Fiddler on the Roof…You don’t have to be Catholic (or French, for that matter) to like Joan of Arc, anymore than you need to be Jewish to like bagels!
D
D_M
Guest
The church has called St Maximilian Kolbe and people who the nazis liquadated as martyrs even though the nazis rarely (in fact never) executed them for simply professing Christ but usually for some ideological reason (ie. Kolbe for instance was part of the Polish resistance and helped jews). I think if they can be declared martyrs that certainly Joan of Arc could also be declared a martyr.
Speaking of Joan of Arc I have a different question that I’m pondering the answer to and I don’t know if anyone can help me here either. Why did God want the French to defeat the English in the hundred year’s war? That was what Joan’s supposed voices told her. Providence is often mysterious; nevertheless that’s no reason to stop thinking.about it… does anyone have any thoughts about why God sent Joan on this mission?
Speaking of Joan of Arc I have a different question that I’m pondering the answer to and I don’t know if anyone can help me here either. Why did God want the French to defeat the English in the hundred year’s war? That was what Joan’s supposed voices told her. Providence is often mysterious; nevertheless that’s no reason to stop thinking.about it… does anyone have any thoughts about why God sent Joan on this mission?
H
HashemEchad
Guest
I will tell you what the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre said about this question.
He wrote an article about Joan of Arc that I loved very much, because he praised her so highly in it.
He said that God sent Joan on the mission to save France from falling under English rule, in order to save France from becoming Protestant.
His theory was that God foresaw that England would become Protestant under Henry VIII, and if France had become English territory in Joan’s time, no doubt France would have fallen to Protestantism also.
Archbishop Lefebvre wrote from a Catholic viewpoint, and seeing things from that viewpoint, it seems he was right.
D
D_M
Guest
I had never thought of that, thank you for sharing it with me… I’m sure if I believe it though (in my mind of thinking of Ireland which retained the faith despite English conquest), but it certainly has some sense to it from the catholic viewpoint
It has never ceased to amaze me how well jews (at least one’s I’ve met) understand and think about the catholic faith, sometimes (such as here) even better than myself…
unfortunately despite this apparent awareness they will not open their hearts and believe, it gives me pain it really does.
N
Noske
Guest
Definition: A martyr is a person who is put to death or endures suffering because of a belief, principle or cause. One who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty for refusing to renounce their religion .
Yes, Jehanne is a martyr. She could have easily stuck herself with life in prison by confessing these false sins that the English accused her of, in hopes that one day the French could rescue her, but she didn’t. Instead, she took it back and chose a horrible death instead of denying Christ.
Almost exclusively out of love of God, but I have a feeling that she would have rather died than be cooped up in that prison any longer. I think she would have known that nobody would be coming to get her if she managed to pull off getting a life sentence in prison.
However, as the criteria for martyr changes depending on belief systems, and then differs even further depending on just what happened to the person, it makes it a little more difficult to decide whether to label them a martyr.
Jehanne died for her beliefs. Nobody can doubt that. In that sense she is a martyr. But because she was tried as a heretic and not given a retrial until 30 years after she’d died, they can’t completely label her as such because of that doubt.
The French had no doubts in their mind that she was a saint, and the Pope back then even granted absolution for sins, because attending a play about her life was considered to be a pilgrimage to a holy site. (She had no tomb, so where else could they go?)
Because Jehanne was so up front about her virginity, and seems to be more interested in life than death, it is far easier for the Church to label her as a virgin, rather than a martyr because of the doubt that the screwed up trial casts over her.
On a happier note…I wrote a rap about my beautiful little patron Saint…Jehanne Romée. (Which is more correct that d’Arc)
The Joan of Arc Rap
I’m here to tell a story
'Bout The Maid of Orléans,
Six hundred years ago
But her legend still carries on.
Raised in Domrémy,
Orléans is her turf.
En Français,
Her age is dix-neuf.
Born in 1412,
The eighth day before Ides,
The youngest of the family;
A little French fry.
When the bells did ring,
Down on her knees she would pray,
Instead of playing with her friends,
She’d be in church all day.
Joanie had three saints;
Mickey, Marge and Cat,
Did whatever they said,
Cos God was all-o-that.
At first they argued,
They couldn’t agree.
But Mickey had his way;
With war they’d set France free.
So it was off to Chinon
To see a bloke called Charlie
With a horse and a standard,
Now she had her own army.
Marched off to Orléans
On her way to Reims,
With her hair cut short,
Yeah, she was one of them.
Snuck into the city
Captured Les Tourelles,
With God on her side,
English morale fell.
But it wasn’t just her battles
That she was well-known for;
But also for the way
That she had treated the poor.
She cared for them deeply,
They were treated with love.
She was liberal with alms,
One of God’s sweet doves.
Jehanne was real nice
And even kinda funny.
I bet she’s cuddly too;
My Eucharistic easter bunny.
But it all could not be;
Her attack on Paris had failed
Burgundy sold her,
And to the English was mailed.
She was stuck in prison
And then put on trial,
But the way that they had treated her
Was really quite vile.
On the cold prison floor,
Curled up in a ball
Jehanne was all alone,
She had no one at all.
But Jehanne stayed strong
And she stayed smart.
She had the lines of questioning
Down to an art.
“I’ll pull your ears!”
Yeah, that’s what she said
To the scribe at her trial
When the wrong things were read.
Stuck back in her cell
And beaten by the guard,
Already bruised and dirty
From a life that was hard.
The fish was poisoned,
The chicken no good,
And if you think that’s bad,
The steak was made of wood.
The English didn’t like her;
Called her a liar,
Taped her to a stick
And said “Kill it with fire.”
She signed a confession,
And then took it back
But now the Church was angry;
They were on the attack.
Kissed by the flames,
And surrounded by fire,
A white dove from heaven
Then flew over her pyre.
Martyr she was,
Sinner she ain’t,
With “Jesus!” on her lips,
They had just killed a saint.
Unlike the dove,
Jehanne never sang or danced,
But who really cares?
She’s the Flower of France.
Yes, Jehanne is a martyr. She could have easily stuck herself with life in prison by confessing these false sins that the English accused her of, in hopes that one day the French could rescue her, but she didn’t. Instead, she took it back and chose a horrible death instead of denying Christ.
Almost exclusively out of love of God, but I have a feeling that she would have rather died than be cooped up in that prison any longer. I think she would have known that nobody would be coming to get her if she managed to pull off getting a life sentence in prison.
However, as the criteria for martyr changes depending on belief systems, and then differs even further depending on just what happened to the person, it makes it a little more difficult to decide whether to label them a martyr.
Jehanne died for her beliefs. Nobody can doubt that. In that sense she is a martyr. But because she was tried as a heretic and not given a retrial until 30 years after she’d died, they can’t completely label her as such because of that doubt.
The French had no doubts in their mind that she was a saint, and the Pope back then even granted absolution for sins, because attending a play about her life was considered to be a pilgrimage to a holy site. (She had no tomb, so where else could they go?)
Because Jehanne was so up front about her virginity, and seems to be more interested in life than death, it is far easier for the Church to label her as a virgin, rather than a martyr because of the doubt that the screwed up trial casts over her.
On a happier note…I wrote a rap about my beautiful little patron Saint…Jehanne Romée. (Which is more correct that d’Arc)
The Joan of Arc Rap
I’m here to tell a story
'Bout The Maid of Orléans,
Six hundred years ago
But her legend still carries on.
Raised in Domrémy,
Orléans is her turf.
En Français,
Her age is dix-neuf.
Born in 1412,
The eighth day before Ides,
The youngest of the family;
A little French fry.
When the bells did ring,
Down on her knees she would pray,
Instead of playing with her friends,
She’d be in church all day.
Joanie had three saints;
Mickey, Marge and Cat,
Did whatever they said,
Cos God was all-o-that.
At first they argued,
They couldn’t agree.
But Mickey had his way;
With war they’d set France free.
So it was off to Chinon
To see a bloke called Charlie
With a horse and a standard,
Now she had her own army.
Marched off to Orléans
On her way to Reims,
With her hair cut short,
Yeah, she was one of them.
Snuck into the city
Captured Les Tourelles,
With God on her side,
English morale fell.
But it wasn’t just her battles
That she was well-known for;
But also for the way
That she had treated the poor.
She cared for them deeply,
They were treated with love.
She was liberal with alms,
One of God’s sweet doves.
Jehanne was real nice
And even kinda funny.
I bet she’s cuddly too;
My Eucharistic easter bunny.
But it all could not be;
Her attack on Paris had failed
Burgundy sold her,
And to the English was mailed.
She was stuck in prison
And then put on trial,
But the way that they had treated her
Was really quite vile.
On the cold prison floor,
Curled up in a ball
Jehanne was all alone,
She had no one at all.
But Jehanne stayed strong
And she stayed smart.
She had the lines of questioning
Down to an art.
“I’ll pull your ears!”
Yeah, that’s what she said
To the scribe at her trial
When the wrong things were read.
Stuck back in her cell
And beaten by the guard,
Already bruised and dirty
From a life that was hard.
The fish was poisoned,
The chicken no good,
And if you think that’s bad,
The steak was made of wood.
The English didn’t like her;
Called her a liar,
Taped her to a stick
And said “Kill it with fire.”
She signed a confession,
And then took it back
But now the Church was angry;
They were on the attack.
Kissed by the flames,
And surrounded by fire,
A white dove from heaven
Then flew over her pyre.
Martyr she was,
Sinner she ain’t,
With “Jesus!” on her lips,
They had just killed a saint.
Unlike the dove,
Jehanne never sang or danced,
But who really cares?
She’s the Flower of France.
R
revnash
Guest
They have used the word martyr because that is what she was. But, she is known as Saint Joan of Arc but the church have added Martyr after her name so they recognise that she is both. Not all saints were killed for their faith, many died of old age. Only those that were persecuted can be called Martyr and it is usually written out as Saint Joan of Arc Martyr to inform people that she was one of the persecuted one’s. Am writing a book on this and have researched much. If you would like to ask anything else, please feel free and I will try to assist you
D
D_M
Guest
Hmm… what if you just became christian in a protestant denomination or the orthodox church? I mean catholicism is obviously the preference, but what is necessary here really is that you believed in Jesus.
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned
Really…pain… it’s felt like a needle through the heart.
L
Lapell
Guest
Where did you read that the Church added “martyr”?
H
HashemEchad
Guest
I’m sorry that being loyal to the Covenant my people made with God “pains” you. Don’t let it. Jesus was never intended by God to be for Jews, only for Gentiles. Its how God intended for nonJews to learn about ethical monotheism without needing to convert to Judaism. That way when the true Messiah comes, everyone will know what to expect because remember, the entire Messiah concept was originally only Jewish.
It pains me when I see Gentiles who do not follow the 7 laws of Noah, but I don’t lose sleep over it. Every person is responsible for their own soul.
You worry about your soul, let me worry about mine, eh?
L
Lapell
Guest
Hum! Wrong! Jesus started with Jews indeed: ALL HIS first followers were Jews. Only after some time after Jesus ascended to heaven were the Gentiles admitted into the new faith, which then was not really outside Judaism… To say Christianity was intended to the Gentiles only is a very wrong thing to say. It simply is not true… I will never back you there, sorry!I’m sorry that being loyal to the Covenant my people made with God “pains” you. Don’t let it. Jesus was never intended by God to be for Jews, only for Gentiles. Its how God intended for nonJews to learn about ethical monotheism without needing to convert to Judaism. That way when the true Messiah comes, everyone will know what to expect because remember, the entire Messiah concept was originally only Jewish.
It pains me when I see Gentiles who do not follow the 7 laws of Noah, but I don’t lose sleep over it. Every person is responsible for their own soul.
You worry about your soul, let me worry about mine, eh?
Even if there is now a minority of us from the Jewish people, it does not follow automatically that the christian faith is meant only to non-Jews.
You still are free to not become a Christian, I am not asking you that. But remain a truth-seeker, please!
D
D_M
Guest
I have read this and I am quite familiar with it.
Have you read the paragraphs that come just before that one which defines christians outside papal authority to be in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the church?
I have interpreted that to mean they are themselves part of this unit outside of which there is no salvation… if I misinterpret though you are welcome to correct me.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
I realize that Christianity teaches that Jesus is for everyone. However, Judaism teaches that the only reason why God permitted both Christianity and Islam to develop was to give Gentiles a way to believe in the principles of ethical monotheism without the need to become Jews.
Remember that at the time Christianity arose, most Gentiles were idol worshippers/polytheists. The concept of One God, and a Messiah-deliverer, at that time were solely Jewish concepts.
By giving Gentiles not one but two religions by which they could come to adopt the Jewish principles of ethical monotheism, this paved the way for the true Messiah when he comes.
Now, when he comes, instead of just Jews understanding the “why” of his arrival, everyone will!
D
D_M
Guest
Abraham, Jacob, Moses and the prophets are all up their in heaven worshipping Jesus. If you are loyal to them you will do likewise.I’m sorry that being loyal to the Covenant my people made with God “pains” you. Don’t let it. Jesus was never intended by God to be for Jews, only for Gentiles. Its how God intended for nonJews to learn about ethical monotheism without needing to convert to Judaism. That way when the true Messiah comes, everyone will know what to expect because remember, the entire Messiah concept was originally only Jewish.
It pains me when I see Gentiles who do not follow the 7 laws of Noah, but I don’t lose sleep over it. Every person is responsible for their own soul.
You worry about your soul, let me worry about mine, eh?
I hope you do worry about your own soul, don’t let me stop you, but I would not be doing much for mine if I refused to tell you what I know to be true…
(What on earth are the 7 laws of Noah?)
H
HashemEchad
Guest
As to your first sentence, chas ve’sholom (God forbid).
I would never worship Jesus, or Krishna, or Buddha, or any other nonJewish deity. And it is because God warned the Jewish people against that in Deuteronomy 13. If you read it, you will find Jesus described to a tee. Jesus was a test from God, to see if the Jewish people would truly follow the One God or not. we passed the test, which is why the belief in Jesus was given then to the Gentiles.
I worry about my soul from a Jewish perspective. What Christianity thinks has absolutely no bearing on that whatsoever.
I would rather die than surrender my faith in the One God to a nonJewish manmade religious system of ANY kind.
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