On whether the trinity is illogical

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Ana_v

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Some critics of Christianity think it is. Perhaps, it’s that when they hear the word “trinity”, what comes to mind is " three is one" or “one is three”.

It would indeed be contradictory for one to say 1 being = 3 beings, or 1 person = 3 persons.

However, such is not the trinity.

We say, there is one God (being) who exists as three distinct, co-eternal, persons.

Nevertheless, I was thinking of a syllogism regarding the trinity, that is problematic to me.
Would someone weigh in on this?

The syllogism has a false conclusion, derived from true premises.

Consider: **
P1: God is a trinity (consists of three persons).
P2: Jesus is God.
P3: Therefore, Jesus is a trinity.**

I say the conclusion is false, because Jesus is NOT “three persons”. He is **ONE person **with a complete divine nature, and a complete human nature.
 
This is why I’m much more comfortable with the expression, Jesus is Lord. When I think “God” I think Trinity, but when I think “Lord” I think of a person of authority.

We often say “Jesus is God” but what we really mean is that Jesus is one of three co-equal, co-eternal divine beings of the Trinity, which is God.

I’m probably a heretic now - nobody since Aquinas has talked about the Trinity without making himself a heretic. drat.
 
DavidFilmer said:
This is why I’m much more comfortable with the expression, Jesus is Lord. When I think “God” I think Trinity, but when I think “Lord” I think of a person of authority.

We often say “Jesus is God” but what we really mean is that Jesus is one of three co-equal, co-eternal divine beings of the Trinity, which is God.
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The thing is, God isn’t divisible into thirds. The Son, considered alone, is fully the One True God, the only God who exists. So is the Father. So is the Holy Spirit. This is why we say there is only one Godhead, not three, and this Godhead is simple, not complex. The only distinction between the Persons (prior to the Incarnation, anyway) is their relationship to one another. In their consubstantial existence each is the single, simple, indivisible God.
 
DavidFilmer said:
When I think “God” I think Trinity, but when I think “Lord” I think of a person of authority.
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Same here – when I think “God” I think all three divine persons. When I think “Lord” I’m thinking a specific person (usually Christ) of the trinity.
Aelred_Minor said:
The thing is, God isn’t divisible into thirds. The Son, considered alone, is fully the One True God, the only God who exists.
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True that each member (e.g. Christ) of the trinity is divine, yet, if one (e.g. the Holy Spirit) did not exist, God would not exist. (I’m not saying that that’s possible – God is a necessary being – I’m simply using it emphasize how the existence of all three persons is essential, even though each individual person taken alone, is divine.

This may just illustrate the limits of our vocabulary. We simply lack sufficient words to totally describe the trinity and in the maximally accurate way.

So for example, if someone says Jesus is “part human, part God”, that is misleading, even if the meaning behind the speaker’s words is orthodox. That’s because when we think of “part” we think, a fraction or percent less than 1, for example, 1/2 or 50%. So it is more accurate to say, Jesus is fully human (100%), and fully God (100%).

Similarly, when we say “Jesus is God”, we don’t mean Jesus is three persons, even though three persons is exactly what God is.

ah, at this point, I’m beginning to confuse myself. I think I’ll ask my pastor about the implications of the syllogism.
 
“God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.”

This scripture says that God the Father gave His only begotten Son. In what way? Over to death for the remission of our sins. It does not say that God the Father gave Himself over to death, but that God the Father gave His only begotten Son over to death. Who can comprehend the love of the Father for us? Who can comprehend the obedient love of the Son for His Father?

Of course, we see the typology when God asked Abraham to offer up his only-begotten son, Isaac. Certainly, Abraham and Isaac were two distinct beings with their own individual wills. Abraham had the will to choose to obey God or disobey God. Isaac had the will to choose to obey or disobey his father, Abraham. Isaac chose to obey his father and carried the wood up to Mt. Moriah…later known as Golgatha.
 
Ana_v said:
The syllogism has a false conclusion, derived from true premises.

Consider:
P1: God is a trinity (consists of three persons).
P2: Jesus is God.
P3: Therefore, Jesus is a trinity.
I say the conclusion is false, because Jesus is NOT “three persons”. He is **ONE person **with a complete divine nature, and a complete human nature.
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You’re right, this conclusion is false. The reason it’s false is because the nature of the Trinity is God. This nature has 3 Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Jesus is God because “God” describes a nature not a Person. And this nature, one Being, has three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

But the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son.

So, the Son is God in nature, and is one Person of the trinity.

Hope that helps, but my apologies if it doesn’t help. It is hard to explain, especially through written word. It would be easier if we could communicate verbally!
 
God is one, and can not be other than one.

The term nature is used to describe an entity, a thing, a being.
God is one nature, one entity, one thing, one being.

Person is not a distinct and separate thing from nature. Rather it is the expression of nature.

Human beings, for example, are one nature expressed in one person. Because we are one person in one nature, that does not make us two things. We are still one entity. Just because we typically associate beings which have personhood (not all do) with only one person, does not mean that it must inevitably be that way.

Frank Sheed’s book “Theology for Beginners,” covers the matter pretty thoroughly.
 
The notion of the trinity IS illogical…when we consider it in human terms. Same as other mysteries of our faith that “don’t make sense”, such as:

The Eucharist

Christ’s sacrifice

God’s love for us,

etc, etc.

Nope. Doesn’t make logical sense, none of it.
 
In a way it is illogical. It is a mystery, we cannot fully explain it, how one is three and three is one. I think of it this way, if I or any human being can fully explain God, then he is not much of a god. The same way that computers, being creations of man, cannot really be like man. We see this too many times in movies. They are strong, they live forever, etc. But there’s always a component that they lack which makes them less than humans. Same with God, there’s something in God that is beyond us all, because we’re the created beings and He is God.
 
You are body, mind and spirit. One person 3 natures.

@byeveryword - The Father does give Himself, through the nature of the Son. It’s not a divisible equation.

[BIBLEDRB]John 10:30[/BIBLEDRB]
 
byeveryword said:
Isaac had the will to choose to obey or disobey his father, Abraham. Isaac chose to obey his father and carried the wood up to Mt. Moriah…later known as Golgatha.
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I have always understood Mt. Moriah to be what later became the Temple Mount, whereas Golgotha would have been outside the first-century bounds of Jerusalem.

Where do you find the idea that Moriah and Golgotha are one and the same hill? It would definitely fit typologically, but I think there is more evidence for Moriah being the site of the Temple.

Usagi
 
John explained it best:

[bibledrb]John 1:1-2[/bibledrb]

[bibledrb]John 1:14[/bibledrb]

God the Father
God the Spirit: Word
God the Son: Word becomes Flesh
 
FCEGM said:
These are components, so to speak, of man’s one nature, so this isn’t illustrative of the Mystery of the Trinity.
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They are all “man” - body, mind and spirit. One is not more “man” than the other. It is the same as the trinity. The trinity of ourselves reflects the trinity of the divine. We are created in God’s image.
 
jonfawkes said:
They are all “man” - body, mind and spirit. One is not more “man” than the other. It is the same as the trinity. The trinity of ourselves reflects the trinity of the divine. We are created in God’s image.
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Yes, we are. But we are not composed of three natures.
 
Ana_v said:
The syllogism has a false conclusion, derived from true premises.

**
P1: God is a trinity (consists of three persons).
P2: Jesus is God.
P3: Therefore, Jesus is a trinity.**
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The problem is equivocation on the word “God”. “God” in P1 must include all 3 Persons of the Trinity to be true, while “God” in P2 must specifically exclude the Father and the Holy Spirit to be true.
 
What do you think of the following understanding?

One human being has a soul [a unique essence] and three distinct natures [mind, body, voice*].
*voice can be any form of communication: Writings, Sign Language, Morse Code, Speech, Paintings, Sculptures, etc.

Just as each nature is a different part of you, each is also exactly you. And just as each nature can exist without the other, You, as a whole, is completely dependent on each nature.

Therefore, God is the Soul or the Unique Essence that is also exactly each nature.
The Father is the Mind or the Creator
The Son is the Body
The Holy Spirit is the Voice

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and criticisms.
 
jochoa said:
What do you think of the following understanding?

One human being has a soul [a unique essence] and three distinct natures [mind, body, voice*].
*voice can be any form of communication: Writings, Sign Language, Morse Code, Speech, Paintings, Sculptures, etc.

Just as each nature is a different part of you, each is also exactly you. And just as each nature can exist without the other, You, as a whole, is completely dependent on each nature.

Therefore, God is the Soul or the Unique Essence that is also exactly each nature.
The Father is the Mind or the Creator
The Son is the Body
The Holy Spirit is the Voice

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and criticisms.
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I like it 🙂
 
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