On whether the trinity is illogical

[noprem]

For me, the idea of God being called a trinity is one the religious fictions invented by theologians some three centuries after the original apostles. There existed no such doctrine during the first century church nor any such inference from the Old or New Testament. Christ Himself never prayed to the Holy Spirit or imply anything close to that nor did His disciples.
I am not aware of any Bible text that explicitly refers to the Holy Spirit in particular as God or one of the God beings. So, the idea of God being a trinity is to me absurd and an absolute fiction.

From the KJV (1611), 1 John 5:7,8:
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
Scholars like Isaac Newton and Edward Gibbon ‘agree in one’ that v.7 was added long after the ms of 1 John was composed; v.8 is authentic, and non-Trinitarian.
The best proof of this IMO is the evidence of later Bibles from Trinitarian publishers. They omit v.7 or relegate it to a footnote.
BTW Gibbon called the verse ‘a fraud’.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello noprem;

unless he meant ‘the Father and I are one in our teaching.’ This statement is supported by several other statements of his, and is not contradicted or diluted by John 17:3, 11,21.

Some thoughts to ponder on…
Can the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father?

When Jesus spent his time on Earth he would have lived by these commandments.

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Does God the Father respond to this love?

God the Father loves God the Son, with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself.

Can God the Father or Son love us more than they love themselves?

Can the spirit be the power of God’s love working through the greatest commandments?

This passage links the spirit and the greatest commandments…
1 Samuel 18

** 1 Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself**

Blessings

Eric

 

[noprem]

Hello noprem;
Some thoughts to ponder on…
**Can the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father?**Eric

I’m afraid you’ve lost me, Eric. Your statements are true as far as each goes, but don’t have anything to do with the Trinity. If they’re intended to show that Jesus = Jehovah, then John 17 “proves” that the Eleven with Jesus at the Last Supper were also Jehovah:
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one. … that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” John 17

A proper exegesis of the passage must include his statement, “May they be brought to complete unity”
Unity, not identity.

What do you think? Does the phrase in the model prayer, “on earth, as it is in heaven” have any relevance today? With all the competing governments on earth, is there any room for ‘God’s kingdom to come’?

 

[noprem]

First of all it is not necessary for things about God to be

Also supporting the idea of the Trinity is the fact that Jesus said that people should be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. As to the idea that that Jesus is the only God, where did that come from? I do not see that in either the Bible or in official Catholic teachings. Jesus Himself said that, “The Father is greater than I.”

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Mt 28:19,20

I’ve often seen this offered as a “Trinity text”; I believe Our Lord meant another use for it.
First, note that it’s an imperative sentence: “Therefore go …” And the command is not, ‘preach the Trinity’, but to make students (disciples) of non-believers in order to teach them about God’s kingdom. (Mt 6:9,10; and hundreds of other times that word appears in the NT)
Second, the name of the Father is Jehovah. The name of the Son is Jesus. The Holy Spirit has no name, but it’s often referred to as “the spirit of God”. Which is to say it’s something God has, not something he is. So, we have not one name for the ‘unity in trinity’ God, nor three names for the trinity in unity God, but two proper names- exactly the wrong number, if the Trinity is being described here.

Not having the Trinity, nor having a need for one (De 6:4), I try my best to obey the command.
So, what do you think of God’s kingdom?

 

[Bran_Stark]

Logically, I am three things at one time – a father, an employee, and a musician, yet I am a human. It is not illogical. It would only be illogical if we said God was “three beings yet one being” or “three persons yet one person” but this is not the case – for God is one being or substance, in three persons. Being/substance =/= person. If ‘being/substance’ is equivalent to ‘person’, then we have a contradiction on our hands.

I think this is the key. For humans, these is no distinction between “being” and “person” - or at least none we are capable of perceiving. So George is one person, George, and one being, also George.

But one of the things making God inherently greater than us is that His being and His persons are truly distinguishable realities, though of course not fully separable from each other.

 

[Spirithound]

I think this is the key. For humans, these is no distinction between “being” and “person” - or at least none we are capable of perceiving. So George is one person, George, and one being, also George.

But one of the things making God inherently greater than us is that His being and His persons are truly distinguishable realities, though of course not fully separable from each other.

An interesting proof of “being” not being completely synonymous with “person” is simply to look at a dog. There we see one being, but no person.