On women monthly 'uncleanness'

[nablaise]

Hello everyone
I just read in a different thread insinuations that the Jewish ritual purification for women meant that the Jewish Faith had gotten something wrong that we Catholic got right.
The common understanding is that the monthly bleeding is ‘natural’. Really? Is it?

Does anyone have more details about the deeper meaning behind the ‘women purification’ that the Blessed Mother went through?

I read a while ago an article on the Catholic Education Centre website: Wise Blood.

The lady who wrote it had a different perspective on what ‘unclean’ means. I would like to know more if anyone have more resources. For now I recommend that article.

God Bless

 

[yinekka]

Since this idea of clean and unclean arose with the Jews you might be better to go to an orthodox Jewish site and ask them for their understanding of the concept.

 

[Michael_G_1]

Hello everyone
I just read in a different thread insinuations that the Jewish ritual purification for women meant that the Jewish Faith had gotten something wrong that we Catholic got right.
The common understanding is that the monthly bleeding is ‘natural’. Really? Is it?

Does anyone have more details about the deeper meaning behind the ‘women purification’ that the Blessed Mother went through?

I read a while ago an article on the Catholic Education Centre website: Wise Blood.

The lady who wrote it had a different perspective on what ‘unclean’ means. I would like to know more if anyone have more resources. For now I recommend that article.

God Bless

As I understand it, theJewish purification ritual took place after childbirth; it had nothing to do with menstruation. It survived in a particular form in the Catholic Church until quite recently as a kind of blessing called “churching”. I can remember an aunt of mine going through it about 40 years ago after she had had a baby, but it seems to have fallen into disuse. My impression is that it was a custom rather than something prescribed by the Church.

 

[valentino]

I never understood it as a medical health precaution in the OT.I thought of it as a ritual.There were many different reasons why people were declared unclean and would have to undego a purification period.many did have to do with health reasons.Mary’s would have to been for 40 days and then a visit to a priest to declare her clean again.Then the person was allowed to have sexual relations.

 

[seagal]

Hello everyone
I just read in a different thread insinuations that the Jewish ritual purification for women meant that** the Jewish Faith had gotten something wrong that we Catholic got right**.
The common understanding is that the monthly bleeding is ‘natural’. Really? Is it?

Does anyone have more details about the deeper meaning behind the ‘women purification’ that the Blessed Mother went through?

I read a while ago an article on the Catholic Education Centre website: Wise Blood.

The lady who wrote it had a different perspective on what ‘unclean’ means. I would like to know more if anyone have more resources. For now I recommend that article.

God Bless

I’m not sure what you mean when you say that [highlighted part above]. They followed the law given to them by God through Moses (Leviticus 15:19-22 re the mentrual cycle, Lev. 12:2-5 re purification after childbirth).

In the Haydock Commentary it points out that in Lev. 12:2 it says " If a woman having received seed shall bear a man child", which excludes the Blessed Mother. However, she followed the law anyway.

 

[Batfink]

Hello everyone
I just read in a different thread insinuations that the Jewish ritual purification for women meant that the Jewish Faith had gotten something wrong that we Catholic got right.
The common understanding is that the monthly bleeding is ‘natural’. Really? Is it?

Yes, periods are natural! The only way a healthy woman will avoid them is to be permanently pregnant or post-partum during her fertile years. I don’t understand your first point; could you link to the original post you saw that in?

Does anyone have more details about the deeper meaning behind the ‘women purification’ that the Blessed Mother went through?

I don’t know exactly what you’re after, but I can tell you a bit about Jewish purication rituals observed by hasidic Jews today; it is more or less similar to what was around at the time of Our Lady (there are disputes about the number of days and other details related to the Temple). For the sake of not taking up too much space, I’ll just state here that most Jewish people do not observe these laws anymore, so if I say something like ‘Jewish women do this that and the other’, I’m necessarily referring only to the minority who practise the laws on family purity.

Judaism recognises the concept of ritual purity. It is completely separate from physical cleanliness (although they may be related in their origins, the current Jewish understanding of ritual impurity is 100% spiritual, it does not in any way imply that the person concerned is ‘dirty’ in fact, women must have bathed thoroughly before coming to the mikvah to be cleansed). You may compare it to blessing oneself with holy water, or the priest washing his hands during the Mass.

At the time of Jesus, there were many things which rendered someone ritually unclean (in the case of a woman in menstruation, this is called niddah), niddah is the only one still in force since the others related to Temple worship. When a woman is niddah, she must wait 7 clean days before presenting herself to be ritually cleansed in a mikveh. In the case of periods, the minimum length of niddah is 12 days. After childbirth it is likely to be at least 6 weeks.

Women who are niddah must not have any physical contact with their husbands (such women are sufficiently observant that they try not to have physical contact with men who are not their husband in any case). This is seen as being spiritually beneficial to the couple (many people will attest to the positive side of the periodic abstinence in practising NFP) and physically beneficial for the woman, but like many commandments, the Bible does not state why it is to be observed; Jewish people keep the law because it is the law and it is given by G-d, not because there is a reason for it (as I said, on an ethnological side, you can trace why the Hebrew people might have considered this a useful law, particularly in nomadic desert communities, but that is not why people observe it).

I have already said that niddah does not equate to physical uncleanness; neither does it mean that one is sinful/unclean in any way that relates to one’s relationship with God. Niddah is a state which happens naturally to all women. Women in niddah are no less holy, worthy, righteous etc that anyone else. Unclean does not equal sinful. The only difference between a woman who is niddah and one who is tehorah (clean) relates to physical contact with the husband.

hth.

 

[waterbender]

I have already said that niddah does not equate to physical uncleanness; neither does it mean that one is sinful/unclean in any way that relates to one’s relationship with God. Niddah is a state which happens naturally to all women. Women in niddah are no less holy, worthy, righteous etc that anyone else. Unclean does not equal sinful. The only difference between a woman who is niddah and one who is tehorah (clean) relates to physical contact with the husband.

hth.

well said! It is important to note that this ritual abstinence during niddah was something that pagans did not observe.

Pagans worshipped with and in blood. Jews set themselves apart all the more by not focuing on blood during worship, but instead saw blood as a sacrifice for the greater good.

 

[karow]

The common understanding is that the monthly bleeding is ‘natural’. Really? Is it?

Is this a trick question?

Amenorrhea is defined by the Mayo Clinic (mayoclinic.com/health/amenorrhea/DS00581) as a symptom of an underlying, although not typically serious, condition. So yeah, it’s entirely natural for a woman who’s not preganant or breastfeeding and otherwise healthy to shed the tissues and secretions in her uterus every 21 to 35 days.

There’s nothing unnatual or unclean about menstruation. I highlight that sentence in case some girl reads this thread and thinks we’re all about female body shaming on these threads.

 

[Phemie]

Is this a trick question?

Amenorrhea is defined by the Mayo Clinic (mayoclinic.com/health/amenorrhea/DS00581) as a symptom of an underlying, although not typically serious, condition. So yeah, it’s entirely natural for a woman who’s not preganant or breastfeeding and otherwise healthy to shed the tissues and secretions in her uterus every 21 to 35 days.

There’s nothing unnatual or unclean about menstruation. I highlight that sentence in case some girl reads this thread and thinks we’re all about female body shaming on these threads.

Try being a 14 year old whose first introduction to the complete Bible, while alone in church during 40 Hours Devotion, was the Book of Leviticus! That would be me back in 1967. Talk about confused & worried!

 

[karow]

Try being a 14 year old whose first introduction to the complete Bible, while alone in church during 40 Hours Devotion, was the Book of Leviticus! That would be me back in 1967. Talk about confused & worried!

I smell what you’re stepping in. Remember the days when it was referred to as “the curse” and a women’s “monthly troubles”? Happy days, eh?

 

[nannymar]

As I understand it, theJewish purification ritual took place after childbirth; it had nothing to do with menstruation. It survived in a particular form in the Catholic Church until quite recently as a kind of blessing called “churching”. I can remember an aunt of mine going through it about 40 years ago after she had had a baby, but it seems to have fallen into disuse. My impression is that it was a custom rather than something prescribed by the Church.

Alleluia! I have been waiting for such a comment. My mother was “churched” after each of us children were born. I was from R.I. and am now in Vermont. When I mentioned this at a Bible Study, no one had heard of it so case was closed.
The reason Catholic women were “churched” was (I was told) after carrying an unbaptized
child within the womb they needed purification. You can see why it was a custom no longer practiced. Just a thought here, I had a mis-carriage at three months and happened so fast I baptized myself as there was no discernable content,still I knew this was a life. Another thought for that very private time of pregnancy, we could pour water on our tummies and baptize from the outside even in the first hours of conception. Just a thought.
Our God is all loving and all merciful, I could believe, that at conception that child is still connected to God Himself who is life itself. I use to pray with my child in my womb during my pregnancies (5 children) What an awesome time.

 

[Michael_G_1]

The reason Catholic women were “churched” was (I was told) after carrying an unbaptized child within the womb they needed purification. You can see why it was a custom no longer practiced.

My aunt had borne a healthy child. But even if the child had died without being baptised, this would have been little more than superstition. In the Catholic Church, ritual cleansing is confined to the liturgy of the Mass.

Just a thought here, I had a mis-carriage at three months and happened so fast I baptized myself as there was no discernable content,still I knew this was a life. Another thought for that very private time of pregnancy, we could pour water on our tummies and baptize from the outside even in the first hours of conception. Just a thought.
Our God is all loving and all merciful, I could believe, that at conception that child is still connected to God Himself who is life itself. I use to pray with my child in my womb during my pregnancies (5 children) What an awesome time.

God bless you. You did right; from the moment it was conceived, like any unborn child, your child was a person made in the image and likeness of God, and deserved to be baptised.

 

[dconklin]

Many of the laws passed on to the Jews by Moses were for sensible reasons. Diseases are spread via blood so don’t touch blood. Same with their cleaning of food and other items.

 

[Michael_G_1]

Many of the laws passed on to the Jews by Moses were for sensible reasons. Diseases are spread via blood so don’t touch blood. Same with their cleaning of food and other items.

You are quite right, but those were sensible precautions for people who lived at a time without antisepctics or antibiotics. They are of historical interest only and they have no religious importance.

Unfortunately, some Protestant fundamentalists use a literal interpretation of Leviticus and other Old Testament writings to argue against homosexual actions. The prohibitions make sense in the context of a race of people trying to preserve and increase their numbers. However our Catholic argument against homosexual actions is not functional like theirs; instead it derives from our understanding of how God gives life to new people through us and our and how we must not use our sexual functions for anything that is not compatible with that.

 

[Phemie]

Many of the laws passed on to the Jews by Moses were for sensible reasons. Diseases are spread via blood so don’t touch blood. Same with their cleaning of food and other items.

Also consider the timing for couples who must abstain from sex during the menses and until after the ritual purification. How to ensure the survival of the race.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Yes, periods are natural! The only way a healthy woman will avoid them is to be permanently pregnant or post-partum during her fertile years. I don’t understand your first point; could you link to the original post you saw that in?

I don’t know exactly what you’re after, but I can tell you a bit about Jewish purication rituals observed by hasidic Jews today; it is more or less similar to what was around at the time of Our Lady (there are disputes about the number of days and other details related to the Temple). For the sake of not taking up too much space, I’ll just state here that most Jewish people do not observe these laws anymore, so if I say something like ‘Jewish women do this that and the other’, I’m necessarily referring only to the minority who practise the laws on family purity.

Judaism recognises the concept of ritual purity. It is completely separate from physical cleanliness (although they may be related in their origins, the current Jewish understanding of ritual impurity is 100% spiritual, it does not in any way imply that the person concerned is ‘dirty’ in fact, women must have bathed thoroughly before coming to the mikvah to be cleansed). You may compare it to blessing oneself with holy water, or the priest washing his hands during the Mass.

At the time of Jesus, there were many things which rendered someone ritually unclean (in the case of a woman in menstruation, this is called niddah), niddah is the only one still in force since the others related to Temple worship. When a woman is niddah, she must wait 7 clean days before presenting herself to be ritually cleansed in a mikveh. In the case of periods, the minimum length of niddah is 12 days. After childbirth it is likely to be at least 6 weeks.

Women who are niddah must not have any physical contact with their husbands (such women are sufficiently observant that they try not to have physical contact with men who are not their husband in any case). This is seen as being spiritually beneficial to the couple (many people will attest to the positive side of the periodic abstinence in practising NFP) and physically beneficial for the woman, but like many commandments, the Bible does not state why it is to be observed; Jewish people keep the law because it is the law and it is given by G-d, not because there is a reason for it (as I said, on an ethnological side, you can trace why the Hebrew people might have considered this a useful law, particularly in nomadic desert communities, but that is not why people observe it).

I have already said that niddah does not equate to physical uncleanness; neither does it mean that one is sinful/unclean in any way that relates to one’s relationship with God. Niddah is a state which happens naturally to all women. Women in niddah are no less holy, worthy, righteous etc that anyone else. Unclean does not equal sinful. The only difference between a woman who is niddah and one who is tehorah (clean) relates to physical contact with the husband.

hth.

A bit of context.

There is a common Traditional Jewish prayer where a **male worshiper thanks God for not making him a woman. ** There is no similar prayer where a female worshiper thanks God for not making her a man, or for making her a woman (source: jewfaq.org/women.htm).

However, I believe this prayer has fallen into disuse except in Ultra-Orthodox communities.

 

[laszlo]

The rational explanation of the Jewish purification law after menses was the opposite of the Natural Family Planning. On the 8th day after the menses finished the woman was ready to conceive new children.

 

[nablaise]

As I understand it, theJewish purification ritual took place after childbirth; it had nothing to do with menstruation. It survived in a particular form in the Catholic Church until quite recently as a kind of blessing called “churching”. I can remember an aunt of mine going through it about 40 years ago after she had had a baby, but it seems to have fallen into disuse. My impression is that it was a custom rather than something prescribed by the Church.

okay. I was reading Lev. 15. It mentions uncleaness but no purification, only waiting days…

 

[nablaise]

Yes, periods are natural! The only way a healthy woman will avoid them is to be permanently pregnant or post-partum during her fertile years. I don’t understand your first point; could you link to the original post you saw that in?

I don’t know exactly what you’re after, but I can tell you a bit about Jewish purication rituals observed by hasidic Jews today; it is more or less similar to what was around at the time of Our Lady (there are disputes about the number of days and other details related to the Temple). For the sake of not taking up too much space, I’ll just state here that most Jewish people do not observe these laws anymore, so if I say something like ‘Jewish women do this that and the other’, I’m necessarily referring only to the minority who practise the laws on family purity.

Judaism recognises the concept of ritual purity. It is completely separate from physical cleanliness (although they may be related in their origins, the current Jewish understanding of ritual impurity is 100% spiritual, it does not in any way imply that the person concerned is ‘dirty’ in fact, women must have bathed thoroughly before coming to the mikvah to be cleansed). You may compare it to blessing oneself with holy water, or the priest washing his hands during the Mass.

At the time of Jesus, there were many things which rendered someone ritually unclean (in the case of a woman in menstruation, this is called niddah), niddah is the only one still in force since the others related to Temple worship. When a woman is niddah, she must wait 7 clean days before presenting herself to be ritually cleansed in a mikveh. In the case of periods, the minimum length of niddah is 12 days. After childbirth it is likely to be at least 6 weeks.

Women who are niddah must not have any physical contact with their husbands (such women are sufficiently observant that they try not to have physical contact with men who are not their husband in any case). This is seen as being spiritually beneficial to the couple (many people will attest to the positive side of the periodic abstinence in practising NFP) and physically beneficial for the woman, but like many commandments, the Bible does not state why it is to be observed; Jewish people keep the law because it is the law and it is given by G-d, not because there is a reason for it (as I said, on an ethnological side, you can trace why the Hebrew people might have considered this a useful law, particularly in nomadic desert communities, but that is not why people observe it).

I have already said that niddah does not equate to physical uncleanness; neither does it mean that one is sinful/unclean in any way that relates to one’s relationship with God. Niddah is a state which happens naturally to all women. Women in niddah are no less holy, worthy, righteous etc that anyone else. Unclean does not equal sinful. The only difference between a woman who is niddah and one who is tehorah (clean) relates to physical contact with the husband.

hth.

Thanks alot for these explanations. You copmlete what I read in the article I mentioned, this is the link: (catholiceducation.org/articles/feminism/fe0055.htm)

Only on the ‘natural’ bit.
Can we say that something is really natural unless it is as God made it? I mean Adam and Eve were not like that when they were made. Perhaps Jews kept in sight the fact that our nature is a ‘wounded’ nature?

 

[nablaise]

Is this a trick question?

Amenorrhea is defined by the Mayo Clinic ( as a symptom of an underlying, although not typically serious, condition. So yeah, it’s entirely natural for a woman who’s not preganant or breastfeeding and otherwise healthy to shed the tissues and secretions in her uterus every 21 to 35 days.

There’s nothing unnatual or unclean about menstruation. I highlight that sentence in case some girl reads this thread and thinks we’re all about female body shaming on these threads.

No it is not about female body shaming. Actually Leviticus mentions other body dischrge and includes males as well.